dkemppai said:
Piano wire seems quite extreme, I must say. I guess it won't
have very good electrical properties. Maybe piano music would
sound good, though? 🙂
I just realized that my recent deviations from the thread topic
has implications back to the topic. Those of you who have
compared silver solder to non-silver solder by listening, have
you used eutectic solder in both cases? I would guess that
is even more important sonically than the silver content, and
I understand that is also the point of George Cardas. For
instance, if you have compared a 60/40 solder to a eutectic
silver solder, then the main effect may not be due to the silver
at all.
has implications back to the topic. Those of you who have
compared silver solder to non-silver solder by listening, have
you used eutectic solder in both cases? I would guess that
is even more important sonically than the silver content, and
I understand that is also the point of George Cardas. For
instance, if you have compared a 60/40 solder to a eutectic
silver solder, then the main effect may not be due to the silver
at all.
Soldering Skills
It can't be overstated that the care you take during the actual soldering operation is critical. The investments in time, practicing your soldering skills, and in a decent soldering iron, are of the utmost importance.
I am fond of my old trusty Weller digital station, plus an assortment of various guns and wands for those special jobs.
For prototyping, I enjoy old school military wire wrap, as I build wee bits of "electronic jewelry" with point-to-point and breadboard work.
I believe the time and effort one spends on a good finished piece of craftsmanship pays off in the end...and the qualities of the solder are the icing on the cake.
For me, audio without the DIY part just isn't the same, is it?
Now, if I had the chassis skills of Peter Daniel..........
Bob 😀
It can't be overstated that the care you take during the actual soldering operation is critical. The investments in time, practicing your soldering skills, and in a decent soldering iron, are of the utmost importance.
I am fond of my old trusty Weller digital station, plus an assortment of various guns and wands for those special jobs.
For prototyping, I enjoy old school military wire wrap, as I build wee bits of "electronic jewelry" with point-to-point and breadboard work.
I believe the time and effort one spends on a good finished piece of craftsmanship pays off in the end...and the qualities of the solder are the icing on the cake.
For me, audio without the DIY part just isn't the same, is it?
Now, if I had the chassis skills of Peter Daniel..........
Bob 😀
Solder Mission...
Bob, I agree that soldering process is quite critical to good long term results.
A good varitemp iron is pretty much mission-critical for getting just the right temp for the task at hand - The weller fixed temp irons are good but nowadays are superceded by modern varitemps.
I have used a Hakko for 10 years and find them to be perfect.
A good iron, good sponge, good solder and a good pump type solder sucker is all that is needed - I only ever use braid for cleaning up SMD pads.
Eric.
Bob, I agree that soldering process is quite critical to good long term results.
A good varitemp iron is pretty much mission-critical for getting just the right temp for the task at hand - The weller fixed temp irons are good but nowadays are superceded by modern varitemps.
I have used a Hakko for 10 years and find them to be perfect.
A good iron, good sponge, good solder and a good pump type solder sucker is all that is needed - I only ever use braid for cleaning up SMD pads.
Eric.
Re: Big Brother Advice.....
Please spare me. I missed that part where my electronics experience is dictated by how long I've been hanging out on this board. You and your 1000 posts and 20 years of experience may make you very wise about audio electronics. On the other hand, it may make you a crank.
I am seeking an explanation as well. I cannot dispute what you think you are hearing. What I seek to understand is if what you are hearing has anything to do with solder, and if so, how I might be able to reliably determine something similar experimentally.
Instead of you talking about rolling on the floor and me painting myself into corners, why don't we stick to the topic at hand and the scientific basis. Please expalin to me in electrical terms, since you have so much experience, where the electric effects that are causing the supposed audible difference are coming from.
I am Mr. Schmad. You can refer to me as that if you like. My friends call me Schmad.
Maybe you should take some of your own advice.
Please spare me. I missed that part where my electronics experience is dictated by how long I've been hanging out on this board. You and your 1000 posts and 20 years of experience may make you very wise about audio electronics. On the other hand, it may make you a crank.
I am seeking an explanation as well. I cannot dispute what you think you are hearing. What I seek to understand is if what you are hearing has anything to do with solder, and if so, how I might be able to reliably determine something similar experimentally.
Instead of you talking about rolling on the floor and me painting myself into corners, why don't we stick to the topic at hand and the scientific basis. Please expalin to me in electrical terms, since you have so much experience, where the electric effects that are causing the supposed audible difference are coming from.
I am Mr. Schmad. You can refer to me as that if you like. My friends call me Schmad.
Maybe you should take some of your own advice.
Well let's see...Let's be very liberal and say that I'm looking at a signal between 0-120 KHz. Having bandwidth to sample that at over 2000 times the needed resolution should probably suffice, at least if you think Nyquist had a clue.
I do. I'm Schmad.
OK great. Years of experience with what? Subjective listening? The issue is not what people think they hear, it's what's causing what they think they hear.
Just a possible proposal. Perhaps one of the amplifiers that are popular on this board could be constructed. One with silver solder, one with regular. The devices could be measured first with instruments first and measurements taken. A series of listening tests could be arranged where the subject listens to a passage of music (of their own chosing if they wish). The subject would be unaware of which solder was used in which device.
If you want to get into the physics of the devices, maybe. Anything measuarable, or discernable in terms of audio, unlikely.
Thanks. I'll check out the discussion on thermal noise.
-Schmad
"....and what is your audio experience ?."
Ummm, about nil real experience it seems.
Oh, and yes the discussion is about experiences and explanations for the sonics due to solder alloys, and not about blind a/b testing which are a crock anyway.
The only way to do it is to try different alloys and learn to hear the differences, the real differences that you are hearing.
""No, I have never sat down and done tests with all else being equal other than the solder alloy used."
"....But the likelyhood of what I'm hearing have anything to do with the solder isn't sufficiently high in my opinion to undertake such a test."
"
Still stupid statements from the under-informed - well you have been told but you refuse to accept.
The bottom line is that some of us are familiar with solder sonics, and that we do not have concrete explanations - that is what we are looking for.
Eric.
Ummm, about nil real experience it seems.
Oh, and yes the discussion is about experiences and explanations for the sonics due to solder alloys, and not about blind a/b testing which are a crock anyway.
The only way to do it is to try different alloys and learn to hear the differences, the real differences that you are hearing.
""No, I have never sat down and done tests with all else being equal other than the solder alloy used."
"....But the likelyhood of what I'm hearing have anything to do with the solder isn't sufficiently high in my opinion to undertake such a test."
"
Still stupid statements from the under-informed - well you have been told but you refuse to accept.
The bottom line is that some of us are familiar with solder sonics, and that we do not have concrete explanations - that is what we are looking for.
Eric.
I've been using WBT 4%
I haven't compared the sonics of it -
What's the scoop on it.
I've been reading this thread off and on and if I've missed it please bear with me.
Ken
I haven't compared the sonics of it -
What's the scoop on it.
I've been reading this thread off and on and if I've missed it please bear with me.
Ken
Re: "....and what is your audio experience ?."
I like that "learn to hear the differences". As pointed out earlier, you may be hearing what you want to hear, versus what may or may not really be there.
There you go again -- can't provide anything scientific, so you resort to name calling. I think the bottom line is that some of you think you are hearing things, but cannot provide any rhyme or reason as to why you might be. For something you are so "familiar" with, you cannot provide any explanation whatsoever. Although I have provided what appears to be the only concrete argument thusfar as to the electrical interactions that various solder can make, and shown that it would be entirely inaudible under all imaginable circumstances, you refuse to accept that. I guess you are landed in the ever growing bin of audiophile cranks who believe that things you "perceive" are beyond the explanation of science.
In any event -- if you ever want to engage in a scientific discussion, with facts, figures and numbers, in the event of either proving of disproving the idea that solder can make a difference, I'd be happy to. If you want to continue on your tirade of insults, then I'd rather not.
Yeah, that seems to be the case with you. All you seem to be able to do is to hurl insults versus saying anything intelligent about the topic at hand.
Right -- I've heard plenty about experiences. Let's have some explanations. If you're so experienced, I think you should step upto the plate and provide some explanation.
I like that "learn to hear the differences". As pointed out earlier, you may be hearing what you want to hear, versus what may or may not really be there.
There you go again -- can't provide anything scientific, so you resort to name calling. I think the bottom line is that some of you think you are hearing things, but cannot provide any rhyme or reason as to why you might be. For something you are so "familiar" with, you cannot provide any explanation whatsoever. Although I have provided what appears to be the only concrete argument thusfar as to the electrical interactions that various solder can make, and shown that it would be entirely inaudible under all imaginable circumstances, you refuse to accept that. I guess you are landed in the ever growing bin of audiophile cranks who believe that things you "perceive" are beyond the explanation of science.
In any event -- if you ever want to engage in a scientific discussion, with facts, figures and numbers, in the event of either proving of disproving the idea that solder can make a difference, I'd be happy to. If you want to continue on your tirade of insults, then I'd rather not.
Hello- Hello
My attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and obsessive compulsive nature along with declining memory😀
plus reading the thread off and on for several days, have me still wondering
what's the scoop on WBT 4% silver solder
Ken
My attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and obsessive compulsive nature along with declining memory😀
plus reading the thread off and on for several days, have me still wondering
what's the scoop on WBT 4% silver solder
Ken
Reading, Comprehension And Social Skills....
"Ummm, about nil real experience it seems."
My first impression is only further reinforced it seems.
No experience and no education or training, yeah ?.
I find those with real world knowledge perfectly happy to divulge it and it seems that you are not in that position.
"I like that "learn to hear the differences". As pointed out earlier, you may be hearing what you want to hear, versus what may or may not really be there."
If you have not heard it you would not know.
There is no such thing as imagining that you are hearing something as far as I am concerned.
If you have decent hearing and good listening skills, and there is a difference, you will hear it.
"and that we do not have concrete explanations - that is what we are looking for."
Your reading and comprehension skills are as poor as your social skills too - go back to kindergarten and start over.
"Although I have provided what appears to be the only concrete argument thusfar as to the electrical interactions that various solder can make, and shown that it would be entirely inaudible under all imaginable circumstances, you refuse to accept that. I guess you are landed in the ever growing bin of audiophile cranks who believe that things you "perceive" are beyond the explanation of science."
Different solders exhibit different conductivities, duh !.
This alone is one reason for circuits to behave slightly differently, but does not explain all.
The rest of the above quote only reinforces your ignorance, Mr Schmuck, and in knowing company more so portrays you as a fool.
"In any event -- if you ever want to engage in a scientific discussion, with facts, figures and numbers, in the event of either proving of disproving the idea that solder can make a difference, I'd be happy to. If you want to continue on your tirade of insults, then I'd rather not."
Yes you are well out of your depth, and you have entirely ignored my first advice about acting against the spirit of this forum.
You have in fact added nothing at all to this thread except annoyance and irritation.
The bottom line is that those who have tried different solders hear differences and that we do not have concrete explanations, and that is what we are seeking, and this was said very clearly in the FIRST post in this thread.
I do not want to have to repeat this again.
Eric, the exasperated from dealing with idiots.
"Ummm, about nil real experience it seems."
My first impression is only further reinforced it seems.
No experience and no education or training, yeah ?.
I find those with real world knowledge perfectly happy to divulge it and it seems that you are not in that position.
"I like that "learn to hear the differences". As pointed out earlier, you may be hearing what you want to hear, versus what may or may not really be there."
If you have not heard it you would not know.
There is no such thing as imagining that you are hearing something as far as I am concerned.
If you have decent hearing and good listening skills, and there is a difference, you will hear it.
"and that we do not have concrete explanations - that is what we are looking for."
Your reading and comprehension skills are as poor as your social skills too - go back to kindergarten and start over.
"Although I have provided what appears to be the only concrete argument thusfar as to the electrical interactions that various solder can make, and shown that it would be entirely inaudible under all imaginable circumstances, you refuse to accept that. I guess you are landed in the ever growing bin of audiophile cranks who believe that things you "perceive" are beyond the explanation of science."
Different solders exhibit different conductivities, duh !.
This alone is one reason for circuits to behave slightly differently, but does not explain all.
The rest of the above quote only reinforces your ignorance, Mr Schmuck, and in knowing company more so portrays you as a fool.
"In any event -- if you ever want to engage in a scientific discussion, with facts, figures and numbers, in the event of either proving of disproving the idea that solder can make a difference, I'd be happy to. If you want to continue on your tirade of insults, then I'd rather not."
Yes you are well out of your depth, and you have entirely ignored my first advice about acting against the spirit of this forum.
You have in fact added nothing at all to this thread except annoyance and irritation.
The bottom line is that those who have tried different solders hear differences and that we do not have concrete explanations, and that is what we are seeking, and this was said very clearly in the FIRST post in this thread.
I do not want to have to repeat this again.
Eric, the exasperated from dealing with idiots.
Hi Ken,
"what's the scoop on WBT 4% silver solder"
I do not know yet.
I have stuck with Multicore solders that are available from my wholesalers, mainly because they are easily available to me, and much less expensive than from a retail or audiophile source.
Anybody have experience of the above solder ?.
Eric, the curious.
"what's the scoop on WBT 4% silver solder"
I do not know yet.
I have stuck with Multicore solders that are available from my wholesalers, mainly because they are easily available to me, and much less expensive than from a retail or audiophile source.
Anybody have experience of the above solder ?.
Eric, the curious.
I guess I'll have to do some listening tests
Can't do anything till probably Mid Jan -
Ceiling exposed to the rafters in about 800 sq ft, kitchen torn out -
renovations going smoothly and on schedule and near cost estimates.
I'm ready for it to be over, Though
Ken
Can't do anything till probably Mid Jan -
Ceiling exposed to the rafters in about 800 sq ft, kitchen torn out -
renovations going smoothly and on schedule and near cost estimates.
I'm ready for it to be over, Though
Ken
Re: Reading, Comprehension And Social Skills....
So "Schmad" asks for proof (data beyond simple opinion) that people are hearing differences in solder types (not an unreasonable request), and instead of responding with a reasonable answer, you hurl insults at him? So think about this: who has lost sight of the "True Spirit" of this board?
I've read this whole thread (wasted a couple hours in fact) and have not seen one reasonable (data backed) explanation describing or proving this purported phenomenon. So, I guess I can see "Schmad's" point. If there is indeed an audible difference, we should offer proof that there's a difference(problem 1), *then* proceed to ascertain why (problem 2).
If you're going to get involved in an "open" discussion, expect conflicting opinions. Perhaps we'd do well to consider "Schmad's" ideas rather than continually trying to quash the Devil's Advocate.
If that can't happen, we'll accomplish nothing.
wumpus out.
mrfeedback said:
So "Schmad" asks for proof (data beyond simple opinion) that people are hearing differences in solder types (not an unreasonable request), and instead of responding with a reasonable answer, you hurl insults at him? So think about this: who has lost sight of the "True Spirit" of this board?
I've read this whole thread (wasted a couple hours in fact) and have not seen one reasonable (data backed) explanation describing or proving this purported phenomenon. So, I guess I can see "Schmad's" point. If there is indeed an audible difference, we should offer proof that there's a difference(problem 1), *then* proceed to ascertain why (problem 2).
If you're going to get involved in an "open" discussion, expect conflicting opinions. Perhaps we'd do well to consider "Schmad's" ideas rather than continually trying to quash the Devil's Advocate.
If that can't happen, we'll accomplish nothing.
wumpus out.
.....Dealing With Idiots - Part II
From page 1 of this thread...
People are saying that they hear a difference, that is the proof in itself - measurements confirm and give reason for the observations and findings.
This is the normal process of science.
I don't want to have to 'splain this again, ok. 🙄
Eric, The Going Blue In The Face.
From page 1 of this thread...
People are saying that they hear a difference, that is the proof in itself - measurements confirm and give reason for the observations and findings.
This is the normal process of science.
I don't want to have to 'splain this again, ok. 🙄
Eric, The Going Blue In The Face.
I haven't read all 11 pages, but has anybody pointed out that a comparison with two different solders is impossible? The assembly, whether its how wire is stripped, how much it is heated, how much solder is used, even the angle it meets with another wire and how it is routed alongside others, is much more important than the solder used, and the assembly will never be EXACT after being done twice, so you'll never know why you're hearing a difference.
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