Silver have one advantage over Copper
that can not be denied.
It conducts current slightly better.
Still I can't help wonder how things would be, if Copper was as rare, expensive as Silver, and Silver was what we used in our circuits.
What would we discuss?
If the use of Copper could be of any benefit for
cables? 😀
Would even a silver, or golden look be as enjoyable?
What if Aluminium was more rare than Gold? 😀
What would we use for heatsinks? Maybe silver!
And what would 5 kilos of Aluminium heatsink cost? 😀
that can not be denied.
It conducts current slightly better.
Still I can't help wonder how things would be, if Copper was as rare, expensive as Silver, and Silver was what we used in our circuits.
What would we discuss?
If the use of Copper could be of any benefit for
cables? 😀
Would even a silver, or golden look be as enjoyable?
What if Aluminium was more rare than Gold? 😀
What would we use for heatsinks? Maybe silver!
And what would 5 kilos of Aluminium heatsink cost? 😀
CONDUCTIVITY AND SOUND
Hello,
This all true but as far as the sound of metals and solder go there's more to it than just these features.
For reading on the sound of metals here's a good start:
THE SOUND OF SILVER....
Cheers,😉
Hello,
This all true but as far as the sound of metals and solder go there's more to it than just these features.
For reading on the sound of metals here's a good start:
THE SOUND OF SILVER....
Cheers,😉
In fact I've found silver loaded solder to have another advantage: It flows much better and so it's possible to make nicer joints.
I've yet to be convinced of any sound difference though😉
I've yet to be convinced of any sound difference though😉
TESTING THE SOUND OF SOLDER.
Hello,
One way to test the sound of solder we ran at an audioclub 15 years ago went as follows:
A tube amp was used and all members were familiar with the system.
We used an octal relay socket for a 6SN7 preamp since this provided screw on terminals.
A deliberately limited number of different types of solderwires were available from better known manufactures and leads of 5 cms were cut and inserted in series with the grid of the tube.
A bare lead of ordinary copper wire of the same length was also used.
The person conducting the test adjusted all soundlevels carefully as to not bring extra variables into the equation.
The issues to establish were:
-do you hear a difference and if so try to describe it.
-which one do you prefer and why.
They all admitted hearing differences and everyone was surprised how good these solderwires actually sounded.
A clear preference went for the non-eutectic solders.
Of the eutectic solders the Multicore Savbit was clearly prefered.
This was a relief since a similar test done in France came up with the same results.
Ciao,😉
Hello,
One way to test the sound of solder we ran at an audioclub 15 years ago went as follows:
A tube amp was used and all members were familiar with the system.
We used an octal relay socket for a 6SN7 preamp since this provided screw on terminals.
A deliberately limited number of different types of solderwires were available from better known manufactures and leads of 5 cms were cut and inserted in series with the grid of the tube.
A bare lead of ordinary copper wire of the same length was also used.
The person conducting the test adjusted all soundlevels carefully as to not bring extra variables into the equation.
The issues to establish were:
-do you hear a difference and if so try to describe it.
-which one do you prefer and why.
They all admitted hearing differences and everyone was surprised how good these solderwires actually sounded.
A clear preference went for the non-eutectic solders.
Of the eutectic solders the Multicore Savbit was clearly prefered.
This was a relief since a similar test done in France came up with the same results.
Ciao,😉
BRIGHT SOUND.
Hello,
These findings seem to concur with many other peoples' findings claiming that silver sounds bright.
But why??
Quite simply because a lot of people hear these claims from well reputed sources about silver wire sound so much better than copper and rush out to get some to try out.
Most go to the obvious sources in those early days:
The goldsmith who of course has silver wire for all kinds of job in his trade.
But,what silver wires do they use: 92.5% pure silver the remainder often being copper and at best gold.
Now I have no explanation as to why exactly the combination of the two metals sounds so bright and unbalanced but it does.
So does silver plated copper and infact so does silver solder in combination with copper tracks or copper wires.
Use high purity 4 to 6 N silver wire in combination with a silver plated solder lug as found on the better tube sockets and it won't sound bright and unbalanced at all.
In fact,when using high quality silver wire throughout (without any copper present in the contact area) I often compare the result as if you had just replaced a bipolar elco coupling cap with a good Q polypropylene.
If you want to make a speaker totally unbalanced put a MKP cap in the tweeter section and a bipolar elco as series caps in the other sections of the Xover.(mid+bass)
The net result will be very similar.
With lead and silver you get pretty much the same results,lead sounds dirty,muddled in comparison to the openness and shear speed of silver.
Ciao,😉
Hello,
These findings seem to concur with many other peoples' findings claiming that silver sounds bright.
But why??
Quite simply because a lot of people hear these claims from well reputed sources about silver wire sound so much better than copper and rush out to get some to try out.
Most go to the obvious sources in those early days:
The goldsmith who of course has silver wire for all kinds of job in his trade.
But,what silver wires do they use: 92.5% pure silver the remainder often being copper and at best gold.
Now I have no explanation as to why exactly the combination of the two metals sounds so bright and unbalanced but it does.
So does silver plated copper and infact so does silver solder in combination with copper tracks or copper wires.
Use high purity 4 to 6 N silver wire in combination with a silver plated solder lug as found on the better tube sockets and it won't sound bright and unbalanced at all.
In fact,when using high quality silver wire throughout (without any copper present in the contact area) I often compare the result as if you had just replaced a bipolar elco coupling cap with a good Q polypropylene.
If you want to make a speaker totally unbalanced put a MKP cap in the tweeter section and a bipolar elco as series caps in the other sections of the Xover.(mid+bass)
The net result will be very similar.
With lead and silver you get pretty much the same results,lead sounds dirty,muddled in comparison to the openness and shear speed of silver.
Ciao,😉
Let's keep all from going off subject, and no derogatory naysaying smart **** stuff t
Fermi junction - thanks for correcting me for wrong terminology.
Rodd, I agree that "cu track-solder-cu(component lead)cu-solder-cu track" ought to cancel thermo electric effects, and that themal gradients cause a net emf.
Schmad and Halojoy - see the headline quote above from the first page of this discussion.
If you have not relevant information or experience, then butt-out thankyou.
Also double blind tests are not worth a pinch of you know what - no arguments regarding merits or otherwise of DB are welcomed here.
Ric - I have done similar testing using lengths of solder wire as audio interconnects, and found wide differences too.
Also with resoldering stages or boards.
Frank, I think the mechanism is somewhat due to differing noise spectrums caused by differing alloys.
These noise levels ought to be very low indeed, but I think differing intermodulations of these differing noise components at connections and in circuit devices and overall circuit to be the sonically revealing factor.
Lead has a damping quality (mechanically, electrically and radioactively), but I do not like the sound of it,
especially when combined with silver in the alloys that I have heard - more so perhaps I do not like the sound of silver when alloyed with lead.
Fred, you saying you prefer 96/4 too ?.
And LOL at the monkey reference.
Frank II - I have resoldered plenty of audio stages and complete boards with differing alloys, and always there is a difference to original sonics according the solder alloy I used.
Using standard 60/40 or 60/38/2cu, restores factory correct operation everytime and confers long term reliability.
I have done millions of blanket resolders on amplifiers, and the result is perfect operation everytime and sonically more pleasing.
My procedure is to tilt the pcb at about 60 degrees, and with the tip shown below and reasonably hot, and the iron held as shown, and apply plenty of new solder to the top of the joint.
The excess solder flows down under the tip and can be lifted away and discarded.
I do this procedure at least twice to each joint to ensure flushing away of old solder, and good (perfect) tinning of both pad and lead.
This procedure wastes quite a lot of solder and plenty of flux is left behind, but I get perfect joints on old boards. (standard solder is cheap and the customer pays for it anyway).
Isopropyl and an art brush and tissue cleans up economically.
Oh, and I also clean the board before I start the resoldering.
Pjotr, half my job is fixing solder joints, and thanks for the reference.
Dan - different lenghts of solder wire will have similar inductance value - your suggestion still does not explain differing sonics for differing solderwires used in same location.
Shitfy, cost of solder does not enter into this discussion and is not a factor - see third paragraph.
John, yes silver alloy tins well.
Try some experiments with solders, and you might be convinced.
To be continued.....
Fermi junction - thanks for correcting me for wrong terminology.
Rodd, I agree that "cu track-solder-cu(component lead)cu-solder-cu track" ought to cancel thermo electric effects, and that themal gradients cause a net emf.
Schmad and Halojoy - see the headline quote above from the first page of this discussion.
If you have not relevant information or experience, then butt-out thankyou.
Also double blind tests are not worth a pinch of you know what - no arguments regarding merits or otherwise of DB are welcomed here.
Ric - I have done similar testing using lengths of solder wire as audio interconnects, and found wide differences too.
Also with resoldering stages or boards.
Frank, I think the mechanism is somewhat due to differing noise spectrums caused by differing alloys.
These noise levels ought to be very low indeed, but I think differing intermodulations of these differing noise components at connections and in circuit devices and overall circuit to be the sonically revealing factor.
Lead has a damping quality (mechanically, electrically and radioactively), but I do not like the sound of it,
especially when combined with silver in the alloys that I have heard - more so perhaps I do not like the sound of silver when alloyed with lead.
Fred, you saying you prefer 96/4 too ?.
And LOL at the monkey reference.
Frank II - I have resoldered plenty of audio stages and complete boards with differing alloys, and always there is a difference to original sonics according the solder alloy I used.
Using standard 60/40 or 60/38/2cu, restores factory correct operation everytime and confers long term reliability.
I have done millions of blanket resolders on amplifiers, and the result is perfect operation everytime and sonically more pleasing.
My procedure is to tilt the pcb at about 60 degrees, and with the tip shown below and reasonably hot, and the iron held as shown, and apply plenty of new solder to the top of the joint.
The excess solder flows down under the tip and can be lifted away and discarded.
I do this procedure at least twice to each joint to ensure flushing away of old solder, and good (perfect) tinning of both pad and lead.
This procedure wastes quite a lot of solder and plenty of flux is left behind, but I get perfect joints on old boards. (standard solder is cheap and the customer pays for it anyway).
Isopropyl and an art brush and tissue cleans up economically.
Oh, and I also clean the board before I start the resoldering.
Pjotr, half my job is fixing solder joints, and thanks for the reference.
Dan - different lenghts of solder wire will have similar inductance value - your suggestion still does not explain differing sonics for differing solderwires used in same location.
Shitfy, cost of solder does not enter into this discussion and is not a factor - see third paragraph.
John, yes silver alloy tins well.
Try some experiments with solders, and you might be convinced.
To be continued.....
Attachments
Solder Sponge Tip.....
Side on drawing of a diecast box, with a vertical panel slid down into slots, and the sponge mounted verically.
A couple of rubber feet glued under the far end ensures that water is present at the bottom of the sponge.
Twice a day I suirt a fine stream of water on the top of the sponge, and this trickles down through the sponge, taking flux & junk down, so the working top edge of the sponge is always clean.
The used solder collects in the bottom, and forms a porous lump of solder that can be removed easily and dumped into a container for selling to a metals recycler.
I have used this sponge setup for years and find it MUCH better than any other sponge setup I have used.
Eric.
Side on drawing of a diecast box, with a vertical panel slid down into slots, and the sponge mounted verically.
A couple of rubber feet glued under the far end ensures that water is present at the bottom of the sponge.
Twice a day I suirt a fine stream of water on the top of the sponge, and this trickles down through the sponge, taking flux & junk down, so the working top edge of the sponge is always clean.
The used solder collects in the bottom, and forms a porous lump of solder that can be removed easily and dumped into a container for selling to a metals recycler.
I have used this sponge setup for years and find it MUCH better than any other sponge setup I have used.
Eric.
Attachments
Schmad and Halojoy - see the headline quote above from the first page of this discussion. If you have not relevant information or experience, then butt-out thankyou.
Well that's just it -- I have relevant information. My relevant information is that there is little scientific basis for the argument that solder composition would make any real difference, audible or otherwise.
Also double blind tests are not worth a pinch of you know what - no arguments regarding merits or otherwise of DB are welcomed here.
Oh how's that now? Anything that might have a basis in science and fact versus the pseudo religious fantasies that some people adopt in terms of audio electronics not welcome either?
Ric - I have done similar testing using lengths of solder wire as audio interconnects, and found wide differences too.
What sort of "wide differences" did you find? I'm quite curious to know. I must ask that you restrict "differences" to quantitative comparisons. Measurements like "fuller" "warmer" "brighter" etc are not reproducable, and given that there is supposedly such a profound difference, given identical equipment with the proposed mods, any of us should be able to appreciate the difference.
Well that's just it -- I have relevant information. My relevant information is that there is little scientific basis for the argument that solder composition would make any real difference, audible or otherwise.
Also double blind tests are not worth a pinch of you know what - no arguments regarding merits or otherwise of DB are welcomed here.
Oh how's that now? Anything that might have a basis in science and fact versus the pseudo religious fantasies that some people adopt in terms of audio electronics not welcome either?
Ric - I have done similar testing using lengths of solder wire as audio interconnects, and found wide differences too.
What sort of "wide differences" did you find? I'm quite curious to know. I must ask that you restrict "differences" to quantitative comparisons. Measurements like "fuller" "warmer" "brighter" etc are not reproducable, and given that there is supposedly such a profound difference, given identical equipment with the proposed mods, any of us should be able to appreciate the difference.
EVIDENCE
Hi,
Yes there is scientific evidence,one major argument would be the fact that silver is the best thermally conductive metal ever.
Twenty years of experience may not count to you as being scientific but any metal,any alloy has got a sonic footprint all of it's own.
When designing you better take it into account if neutral sound has a meaning to you.
Time to catch up?😉
Hi,
Yes there is scientific evidence,one major argument would be the fact that silver is the best thermally conductive metal ever.
Twenty years of experience may not count to you as being scientific but any metal,any alloy has got a sonic footprint all of it's own.
When designing you better take it into account if neutral sound has a meaning to you.
Time to catch up?😉
This Is Not About Beliefs....
Well that's just it -- I have relevant information. My relevant information is that there is little scientific basis for the argument that solder composition would make any real difference, audible or otherwise.
Show me (us) the money then.
So, just how is it that differing conductors cannot make a sonic difference then ?.
Oh how's that now? Anything that might have a basis in science and fact versus the pseudo religious fantasies that some people adopt in terms of audio electronics not welcome either?
2 hours of blind A/B testing on unfamiliar equipment, music and environment do not constitute a completely valid experiment - no iffs or buts.
Beliefs are not the subject at hand here, and experiences and observations are, and by some very well experienced hands (ears) present here - rather more so than yours, I venture.
What sort of "wide differences" did you find? I'm quite curious to know. I must ask that you restrict "differences" to quantitative comparisons. Measurements like "fuller" "warmer" "brighter" etc are not reproducable, and given that there is supposedly such a profound difference, given identical equipment with the proposed mods, any of us should be able to appreciate the difference. [
Effects exactly as Frank describes above.
For lead solders I find Savbit to be quite acceptable overall, with a bit of muddying, but better than lead/tin only.
I suspect that some Chinese/Taiwan/HK solders on budget gear contain Cadmium (from recycled car batteries probably) and these sound really irritatingly bad, and change the solder to Savbit and they are then quite ok sonically.
Lead/silver solder alloy gives a wrongly bright characteristic to my ear.
On initial listening this gives an impression of greater HF detail, but on extended listening I find it gives a harmonically wrong resultant that drives me up the wall or out the room.
What we are on about here is to relate experiences and sonics opinions, and flesh out the mechanisms involved.
Eric.
I also find 96S (96tin/4silver) gives an initially dullish resultant, that on extended listening gives a more harmonically correct sound, more detailed actually, and long term pleasant, and no glaring, nasty or irritating sounds.
If you go to the trouble of trying the above experiments, I contend that given sufficiently good replay gear that you will hear differences, provided that you approach with an open mind.
Well that's just it -- I have relevant information. My relevant information is that there is little scientific basis for the argument that solder composition would make any real difference, audible or otherwise.
Show me (us) the money then.
So, just how is it that differing conductors cannot make a sonic difference then ?.
Oh how's that now? Anything that might have a basis in science and fact versus the pseudo religious fantasies that some people adopt in terms of audio electronics not welcome either?
2 hours of blind A/B testing on unfamiliar equipment, music and environment do not constitute a completely valid experiment - no iffs or buts.
Beliefs are not the subject at hand here, and experiences and observations are, and by some very well experienced hands (ears) present here - rather more so than yours, I venture.
What sort of "wide differences" did you find? I'm quite curious to know. I must ask that you restrict "differences" to quantitative comparisons. Measurements like "fuller" "warmer" "brighter" etc are not reproducable, and given that there is supposedly such a profound difference, given identical equipment with the proposed mods, any of us should be able to appreciate the difference. [
Effects exactly as Frank describes above.
For lead solders I find Savbit to be quite acceptable overall, with a bit of muddying, but better than lead/tin only.
I suspect that some Chinese/Taiwan/HK solders on budget gear contain Cadmium (from recycled car batteries probably) and these sound really irritatingly bad, and change the solder to Savbit and they are then quite ok sonically.
Lead/silver solder alloy gives a wrongly bright characteristic to my ear.
On initial listening this gives an impression of greater HF detail, but on extended listening I find it gives a harmonically wrong resultant that drives me up the wall or out the room.
What we are on about here is to relate experiences and sonics opinions, and flesh out the mechanisms involved.
Eric.
I also find 96S (96tin/4silver) gives an initially dullish resultant, that on extended listening gives a more harmonically correct sound, more detailed actually, and long term pleasant, and no glaring, nasty or irritating sounds.
If you go to the trouble of trying the above experiments, I contend that given sufficiently good replay gear that you will hear differences, provided that you approach with an open mind.
I agree, I have been out of subject several times.
Sound of Solder Alloys.
Based on fact,
most of us would say that differences in Solder Alloys
can not be heard.
One term used together with sound
is hear
Many misunderstandings, I think, comes out of
that we can mean different things with the word hear
It can mean, that our ear sense a soundwave.
It is a strictly technical thing.
This does not have to say we notice the sound.
To hear can also mean the resulting experience we notice
when we are exposed to soundwaves.
This is more, than a technical, mechanical thing.
Our brain works in an associative way.
Information is compared and processed
along with what is sensed by all our senses, 5 or 6.
Also we have stored information and experiences.
A very complex mixture, I would say.
Sound of Solder Alloys.
Based on fact,
most of us would say that differences in Solder Alloys
can not be heard.
One term used together with sound
is hear
Many misunderstandings, I think, comes out of
that we can mean different things with the word hear
It can mean, that our ear sense a soundwave.
It is a strictly technical thing.
This does not have to say we notice the sound.
To hear can also mean the resulting experience we notice
when we are exposed to soundwaves.
This is more, than a technical, mechanical thing.
Our brain works in an associative way.
Information is compared and processed
along with what is sensed by all our senses, 5 or 6.
Also we have stored information and experiences.
A very complex mixture, I would say.
Experince Counts.......
Twenty years of experience may not count to you as being scientific but any metal, any alloy has got a sonic footprint all of it's own.
Frank I totally agree, and further add that substrates, enclosures and dielectrics impart further sonics.
Schmud, the key is to experiment and get a sonic handle on different materials, and the further get a handle on sonics when these materials are used in differing combinations.
To give an analogy, take a bite of chocolate, savour the taste and familiarise, and whilst with the mouthfull of chocolate take a spoonfull of ice-cream, and taste the resultant combination.
Now flush your mouth, take another bite of the same chocolate and then take a sip of beer.
By this analogy I mean that some materials go well together, others don't.
Frank's advice is good advice.
What is your real name, and what is your audio experience ?.
Eric.
Twenty years of experience may not count to you as being scientific but any metal, any alloy has got a sonic footprint all of it's own.
Frank I totally agree, and further add that substrates, enclosures and dielectrics impart further sonics.
Schmud, the key is to experiment and get a sonic handle on different materials, and the further get a handle on sonics when these materials are used in differing combinations.
To give an analogy, take a bite of chocolate, savour the taste and familiarise, and whilst with the mouthfull of chocolate take a spoonfull of ice-cream, and taste the resultant combination.
Now flush your mouth, take another bite of the same chocolate and then take a sip of beer.
By this analogy I mean that some materials go well together, others don't.
Frank's advice is good advice.
What is your real name, and what is your audio experience ?.
Eric.
SAVBIT
Hi,
To my ears the best compromise when using eutectic solders.
I may have mentioned it before but this particular solder alloy was prefered by the french+japanese audiophiles many years ago already.
When restoring/reviving or modding older gear I first do away with all remaining solder using a solder wick or solda-pump.
Easy enough on a PCB but a PITA with P2P wiring.
Point is,no balls of solder should be allowed to gather on a piece of wire somewhere else.
Then,whenever I can improve on mechanical integrity between the solder point and wire I will do so.
And use as little solder as possible to boot.
Cheers guys,😉
Hi,
To my ears the best compromise when using eutectic solders.
I may have mentioned it before but this particular solder alloy was prefered by the french+japanese audiophiles many years ago already.
When restoring/reviving or modding older gear I first do away with all remaining solder using a solder wick or solda-pump.
Easy enough on a PCB but a PITA with P2P wiring.
Point is,no balls of solder should be allowed to gather on a piece of wire somewhere else.
Then,whenever I can improve on mechanical integrity between the solder point and wire I will do so.
And use as little solder as possible to boot.
Cheers guys,😉
CHOCOLATE ERIC?
Hello,
And don't even try to tell me all chocolate tastes the same,especially not the belgian ones.
Naturally other factors are involved here.
One reason I shy away from PCB in audio gear is that too can have a deleterious effect on sound quality.
That however is easier to explain than alloys and their varying sonic effect.
The master designer is somewhat like a chef in a highly ranked kitchen,he knows from experience what spices to use and how these will affect his supreme meal.
Audio design is very much the same till the day we can all work with neutral components from start to finish.
If these differences wouldn't exist we'd all be listening to the same ampliwire and boxes and cables and so on.
Don't get me wrong what we're on about is not just subjective as far as these alloys are concerned.
They're all very different chemically so,yes,I expect them to sound diferently as well.
Life is a solda-pump,😉
Hello,
And don't even try to tell me all chocolate tastes the same,especially not the belgian ones.
Naturally other factors are involved here.
One reason I shy away from PCB in audio gear is that too can have a deleterious effect on sound quality.
That however is easier to explain than alloys and their varying sonic effect.
The master designer is somewhat like a chef in a highly ranked kitchen,he knows from experience what spices to use and how these will affect his supreme meal.
Audio design is very much the same till the day we can all work with neutral components from start to finish.
If these differences wouldn't exist we'd all be listening to the same ampliwire and boxes and cables and so on.
Don't get me wrong what we're on about is not just subjective as far as these alloys are concerned.
They're all very different chemically so,yes,I expect them to sound diferently as well.
Life is a solda-pump,😉
Re: Whether or not it affects the sound though, remains to be settled.
Rodd Yamashita
I think I'll go down to Radio Shack tomorrow.Fred Dieckmann said:
Rodd Yamashita
Hi Frank,
I guess I've been on the fence for a long time about solder, but for 10 minutes and $3USD, who's the fool.😀
What would be your thoughts on this solder (I know it's a little unfair of me to ask if you haven't tried it)? Maybe Fred will lend an opinion?
Rodd Yamashita
I guess I've been on the fence for a long time about solder, but for 10 minutes and $3USD, who's the fool.😀
What would be your thoughts on this solder (I know it's a little unfair of me to ask if you haven't tried it)? Maybe Fred will lend an opinion?
Rodd Yamashita
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