Sony TTS 8000 (All in Discussion)

It's just a bit of the tail wagging the dog. Some specificity of lubrication is part and parcel of a bearing design. There's an anonymous engineer who has made Torlon bushes, right? What lubrication have they specified for their engineered solution? Grease, oil bath, etc. are very different approaches benefiting different challenges with different requirements. What is the current retrofit solution designed to use?
 
The Thread started as an ( All in Discussion)
So far that brief has been met, as there are contributors keen to contribute their own experiences.

The experiences being made known from contributors to the thread seem to have a similarity, where as there is a concern about a condition that has been discovered within the Bearing Housing.

My own early experiences of this certainly created a discussion, and others who picked up on the discussion, carried out their own investigations.
In some cases the findings from the investigations were publically reported on.

My own curiosity was to look into the methods that will make a change to the conditions I was encountering.
I was already in discussions about using another persons designs for a different Brand/Model TT Bearing Housing.
With the Information offered during the discussions on the other TT, and the information gathered during the investigations of Lenco Bearings, a Design was put onto paper for the TTS 8000.

Following the overview of the concept, a few tweaks were made and the Design was agreed to be produced.
As a proportion of the ideas were already in place for the other TT Brands Bearing,
the TTS 8000 was the Model chose to serve as the Donor TT.
Hence my donation of a TTS 8000 for the operation.

A version of the designs that are on Paper to be utilised for the TTS 8000 I had donated were partially used on another owner of the TTS 8000 Bearing Housing.
I was asked if it was OK for my TT's work to be put on hold, to which I had no concerns.
Hence Jamie received a version of a Bearing Modification.

Very recently a request was made on another forum about the TTS 8000 and the information being made known was about similar conditions that I am familiar with.

As there was very little response within the forum from other members, I chose to produce this thread.
It received a healthy response, which is very much appreciated.
The member of the other forum has been informed of this thread and is now a welcomed contributor.

The above is a summary of the route taken to date around the TTS 8000's I own.

As the contributors increase in numbers within this thread, I am optimistic and foresee it is probable that the adeptness of the skills of the contributors may become broader and the desirable simplistic solutions might manifest.
Who knows one adept type might make a TTS 8000 their next project.

The current retrofit design in use, is the parts Jamie is now in possession of.
A New Part is produced for the Thrust Pad / Sump Plug.
This part has the method incorporated to be able to use a sacrificial Thrust Pad.
At present the thrust pad is produced from Torlon.
This method will allow for a variety of materials to be trialled as a interface, and lower friction interfaces can be achieved.

The Spindle Interference Fit Base Ball is also exchanged to a New Material.
The damaged ball that was present is no longer in use.
The Interface of the base ball and Torlon thrust pad, will be of a lesser friction than the originals parts used at the interface.

The Bushes are now produced from Torlon.
In my mind the benefits of Thermoplastics used in a Bearing Environment is documented.
I have been familiar with the material Delrin for more than 30 Years.
PEEK and POM Acetal is also regularly discussed for use within a Bearing Assembly.

Due to the improved properties as a material, the use of Torlon is seen as an improved material over Acetal.

When Torlon is used for this role as a Bush in my own TTS 8000's, I am with confidence the use of a new bush material will serve to be much better than hoping any treatments of the original bush will resolve the condition present.

I am confident in my decision to use Torlon, it does become a material of choice for other Branded Bearing Parts and is seen in use as a Thrust Pad as well for other TT Models.

The above is the jouney that is in place to date where I have been involved.

The seed is planted and methods to produce changes has commenced.

I feel quite fortunate to have received the support from an Engineer, to have them ponder over my ideas and allocate their time to assist in aligning them with what would be considered a improved practice.

I don't think the advice on Lubrication will be hard to come by.


In my mind the most difficult issue to resolve outside of the Bearing Housing is the Wobbly Platter when seated onto the Spindle.
This once again needs careful consideration, if it is to be produced to connect to the Spindle, to a standard that is in keeping with other TT's connections.

How others feel about the condition of the Platter Seating on the Spindle is not commonly discussed.
It is part of the (All in Discussion)

Looking into a Method to produce a more rigid bowl is not too concerning, as a part could be produced from numerous materials to be used to mount and use as a fastening point for a Brace attachment.
 
In relation to the Group Buy request for replacement Bearing Parts.

The Inquiry that I have made has been met with an offer to Produce 10 Pairs of Bushes made from the Torlon Material.

These will be machined to be match the Two TT's that have been worked with,
so hence a OD of 16mm to fit the Bearing Housing, and machined to work with a 11mm Spindle.

The Torlon Bushes will be offered as a Push Fit Exchange for the existing bushes.
When the Torlon Bushes are set in the Bearing Housing, an additional DIY Treatment using a 11mm reamer will be need the be carried out, to complete the fitting process.
The added treatment is required, as the ID of the Torlon Bush will decrease slightly once the Push Fit has happened.

I have been informed a Hand Reamer will be a good enough Tool to use, and that I could be entrusted to carry out the additional treatment, which indirectly has the meaning, that using a Hand Reamer does not require a honed skill set.
A 11mm Hand Reamer as the most basic tool, does not seem to have too much of a cost attached to it.

It would be great if the Group Buy could meet the Order for the Production of Ten Torlon Bush Pairs, as this is the requested quantity for a Group Buy from the Engineer.

The supplied Ball Park Figure for the Cost of the Parts minus Shipping is very fair and I am sure will be easily accepted.
The final cost can be made known for the Pairs of Torlon Bushes if a Group Buy of Ten Pairs is achieved.

Can any queries on this option, or the interest in this option be made known ?


you can stick me down for a pair please john. has this group buy been confirmed? whats the lead time?
 
Hi Jamie
I have made it known that when Seven Orders are listed on the GB, I will incur the costs for the last three.
Indirectly I will have five Pairs, but I am sure a few will be requested when the Thread is alive for longer.

I believe yours makes Seven, so I will get the final cost during the week and get a guestimate on the Lead Time.
I will also manage the Packaging and Shipping of the parts and make the costs for this known as well.
 
The Thread has been very well responded to, and the interest being shown in the concepts of producing changes are similar to my own.

I see this as an early days Project that will evolve.
As it evolves if reports are made available, the assessments are going to be subjective and this will produce variations in the supplied information.

At some point in the future a Measured Data may be offered for an assessment.

For some TTS 8000 owners, to have the replacement bush sleeve parts in their possession and available as an option to be used will offer a level of reassurance.

For others who receive them, hopefully having possession of them will be an encouragement to become more informed about the best environment to use them in and a become more familiarised with the method on how to fit them, maybe even search out a local service to carry out the fitting of the parts.

If the preparations for the exchanges are carried out with care and the considerations referred to in previous Posts within this thread for the Dismantle and Reassemble of the Bearing Assembly are listed.
Any clarifications required by an individual on a particular procedure can be aired and further supporting information can made available.
 
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I have been in communication with the Engineer who will be producing the Torlon Bush Parts.

The Good News is that the GB can go ahead and Ten Pairs of Bushes are to be produced.

I hope this next information proves to be quite satisfactory,
the Parts are to be machined to be a push fit replacement Bush, where a final 11mm Ream Fit will be needed to match the Spindle.
The New Bush parts are to be made available at £20 GBP per pair.

It is looking like these parts will be ready for shipping in Mid September 2021.

I will manage the Packing and Shipping.
With the weight of the package, I will assume the shipping costs will be not much.
I can get a cost over the next few days.

Can those who would like to Join In on this GB reconfirm their Interest and I will request the go ahead for the machining.
 
A few thoughts (wrap up) on TORLON.


From what I found TORLON doesn't neccessarily need lubrication, but friction can be lowered if lubricated.
I don't care much about bearing friction for these TTs as the motor has high torque. Also a few amount of play is not my concern. Noise is what has to be lowered in my opinion.



As there is still some play if bushings are reamed to 11H7 as jamie reported, I wonder which type (specification) of lubrication is suitable. As This bearing is not designed for filling it it up with oil, the viscosity has to fit to the gap, to keep a small amount of lubricant in place.



Nevertheless I'm still in. It's a least worth gining these bushings a try.
 
Jamie when I was handling your bearing, I was free spinning the Spindle and I was very impressed with the Interface.
It was assively improved on my Bearing / Bush conditions.

I could not detect anything I would be concerned about.
Did anything change since I was shown it, which was on the Friday prior to your receiving it?
 
As I said previously, I'm in for one pair as well.
I would be still interested in a bearing which is not leaking, so the o ring is still to be addressed.
I guess a tightly toleranced bearing would preferrably be lubricated with a lighter oil.
But maybe this is a field for experiments.
Question is, how does a steel spindle interact with a plastic sleeve?
 
As I said previously, I'm in for one pair as well.
I would be still interested in a bearing which is not leaking, so the o ring is still to be addressed.
I guess a tightly toleranced bearing would preferrably be lubricated with a lighter oil.
But maybe this is a field for experiments.
Question is, how does a steel spindle interact with a plastic sleeve?


The smaller the clearance the lower the viscosity. Maybe some skilled mechanical designers can jump in and provide some rules of thumb.


I would assume that TORLON is softer than the hardened steel spindle...?
 
The General Rule is that the most expensive to produce part interfaces with a relatively easy to exchange parts that are referred to as sacrificial.
In nearly all cases Thermoplastics are incorporated into the design to remove metal to metal contact.
Delrin was a material used in the early days of these application.
Materials have evolved for their suitability for use in differing environments.

In the modern world there are Expensive Mechanical Parts that have been subjected to long periods of use where metal to metal contact has caused deterioration to the expensive part has shown on the part.
There are Metal Filler available today, that can be applied to a worn part to enable it to be machined back to a Original Spec Tolerance.
I would never anticipate a Spindle might need this type of treatment, but interestingly I have seen on a few TT's that the Interference Fit Ball on the Spindle have shown noticeable deterioration.
 
Following on from approximately Six Weeks of this threads creation.
There is now a option on a Method to have a part made available to replace a Sintered Bronze Bush used within the Bearing Housing Assembly.

In my view this New Part is only one part to be utilised and incorporated into a overall Method to overcome conditions that have been reported with the
TTS 8000 Bearing Assembly.

The TTS 8000 is a rare Turntable Model and does command a fair price so Donor Parts are not readily available.
For this reason I am suggesting that an individual reads the following Disclaimer and evaluates the risks that could become an eventuality, before they choose to undertake a modification.

I am already in a position where I have exposed myself to a proportion of the listed risks.
Another contributor has exposed themselves to the entirety of the risks and is at present suspected of experiencing the condition made in Section 8, and a Boundary Effect for the Lubrication in use is seemingly having manifested.

I urge those who do wish to head down the exchange a part route to proceed with a thought out plan, that they are comfortable with.


Disclaimer
1, The Removal of the Parts to expose the Spindle and Bearing Housing should not be too complicated and there is very little that can be foreseen to cause a concern. (Correct Tools and a Method to release a Thread Sealed Fastening will be a good preparation)

2, The removal of the Spindle from the Bearing Housing is a straight forward gentle pull upwards until the Vacuum Suction releases the Spindle.
The Spindle Base Interference Fit Ball can be inspected for any indication of a noticeable Damage.

3, The releasing of the Metal Pressed Bowl that the Bearing Housing is mounted on, is a case of releasing the retaining screws on the Top Rim.

4, I can’t recall if stator wiring interferes with the preparation to release the Bearing Housing.
Inquiring about the methods used to achieve this is advised.

a, When the Bowl is available to be inspected as a singular Part of the Assembly, the Sump Plug / Thrust Pad can be tested to see if it retains Oil.
Alternatively a replacement part could be utilised, that has a design that enables a sacrificial Thrust Pad to be used.

5, This is where the risks start to manifest !!, and needs to be carried out in a Careful Manner, a skilled individual with an experience of these types of procedures will be the best method to use, for a few of us including myself.
What is at risk ?.
a, The Original Bushes on removal could be damaged and are as a result, in a condition that are not reusable ?
I do not want to encourage anybody to experience this as a outcome, so careful practices are a must.

b, The New Bushes when push fitted could be damaged, additionally if the Bushes are fitted and there are no concerns, the final fitting to the spindle will need careful consideration.
The additional procedure of reaming to fit the Spindle, to a experienced individual this will not be daunting as there is a familiarisation with the procedures.
A New to the Procedure individual will be without a Hands On Experience, and a mistake can be made.
A support supplied from an experienced person would be the best practice.

6, Either Procedure in 5a, or b, in a worst case outcome could end up damaging the Bearing Housing.
I do not intend on encouraging anybody to experience a catastrophic failure of this part.
Before any works are undertaken this risk need to be evaluated.

7, All the above is looking likely that there is a opportunity to improve on a Bearing Interface where a excessive movement has manifested and is undesirable.

A reference to a use of Grease has already made it known that the use of it, has improved the movement/noise at the Spindle Bush Interface.

Another reference to a refurbishment of the Bearings Original Parts has not made much different to a noticeable noise generated within the Bearing Housing.

Another reference has made it known that there has been a noticeable improvement to a noise generated from the Bearing Housing when a Torlon Bush has been incorporated.

As already stated by a contributor, a report on Movement and Noise is Subjective.
There is not any information available apart from a description from the individual experiencing it during their inspections and investigations.
The Lengths that an individual is will to go to overcome the conditions being met is going to vary.

8, My Original Bearing Assemblies do not maintain oil in a spacing between the Bush and Spindle.
The desirable Hydrodynamic use for the oil has yet to be discovered.
The Viscosity of Oils I have used have produced a Boundary Layer and the Oil has leeched out from the Spacing between the Bush and Spindle.

The Success of the procedures to use a New Bush, is dependent on creating a Hydrodynamic Environment for Oil if used as a Lubricant.

The Torlon Bush in use at present on a Modified Bearing Assembly has already experienced a suspected Boundary Effect, as the Torlon Bush in use, has a report of a noticeable movement since I handled the bearing assembly that has it is installed in.

9, To ensure a Lubrication is possible to be maintained to where the method will ensure a lubricant is maintained with the bearing housing and not escaping is yet to be discovered.

At present my view on the GB of Torlon Bushes is one where there is an opportunity to acquire the Parts that can make a much improved impact on the Noise Levels that the TTS 8000 is capable of producing using the Original Parts.
The Movement that can occur between the Spindle and Bush is able to be vastly improved and when the correct lubrication method is discovered, it will hopefully prove to be a low maintenance interface.

The Torlon Bush Part is quite important to the modification to produce a quieter operating Bearing.
I would like to think the above does not deter a individual from following through with their wish to purchase Torlon Parts in the GB..

The Torlon Bush Bearing in use at present is a Work in Progress and there are further methods being investigated and intended to be trialled.
Assessing the reports made available on the outcome of the further methods being put into practice will prove to be quite valuable.

Receiving the feedback from the TTS 8000 owner who is trialling a few additional materials to improve on the bearing housing assembly, might be the best practice to participate in, prior to carrying out any modification work.

I have extended my investigation of Lubrications to covering Lubrications used on Thermoplastics in Plane Bearing Assemblies.
There is information being discovered with data that shows that there are Self Lubricating Thermoplastics that benefit from using additional lubrication.