Today I wanted to recap my TTS-8000 and - having refilled the bearing with oil - not surprisingly (in the light of this thread) the board was pretty oily - hence I am begging to wonder: was this bearing really ever meant to run with oil? Anyway, in order to do so a new seal seems to be a must.
I myself have not as yet witnessed a Lubrication Residual anywhere on m y TTS's.
The Leeched Out Lubricant, is I assume, an Oil that was applied as part of a servicing method, and escaped through the Sump Plug / Thrust Pad ?.
In a recent post it was made known an Oil Lubrication had not leeched through the Sump Plug, but evidence was witnessed of the Oil escaping past the square walled rubber washer.
I do not know if the Sump Plug had been treated with a new applied Thread Seal.
At present with the methods available without too many new machined parts needing to be produced will lend itself to a Light Use of Oil Lubrication.
It would be quite satisfying to discover a method which is quite simple to achieve,
that can allow for a increased volume of Oil Lubrication if required, and also does not leech from the Bearing Housing Base.
This is where the Trials are necessary, it is not something that lends itself entirely to be a Design on Paper.
Is there a Better Rubber Part than the rubber part that is used in the original ?
There will be rubber parts available to trial with to see how they function, if the function enables a choice of methods to be used as a Lubrication all the better.
Out of the Three TTS 8000's I have owned, I am confident one was with a Dry Bearing Housing, but I can check the new owners report once more to confirm this.
The Two TT's I still have have been Dry when inspected.
The Spindle was tarnished and not bright, and the Gold Dust on the probe led to the thought the Lubrication had been lost over time.
Oil came to mind, the reports of Grease being discovered are not recollected from my earliest discussions, and the discovery of Grease has been made known and remembered from the recent threads I have posted in.
The Leeched Out Lubricant, is I assume, an Oil that was applied as part of a servicing method, and escaped through the Sump Plug / Thrust Pad ?.
In a recent post it was made known an Oil Lubrication had not leeched through the Sump Plug, but evidence was witnessed of the Oil escaping past the square walled rubber washer.
I do not know if the Sump Plug had been treated with a new applied Thread Seal.
At present with the methods available without too many new machined parts needing to be produced will lend itself to a Light Use of Oil Lubrication.
It would be quite satisfying to discover a method which is quite simple to achieve,
that can allow for a increased volume of Oil Lubrication if required, and also does not leech from the Bearing Housing Base.
This is where the Trials are necessary, it is not something that lends itself entirely to be a Design on Paper.
Is there a Better Rubber Part than the rubber part that is used in the original ?
There will be rubber parts available to trial with to see how they function, if the function enables a choice of methods to be used as a Lubrication all the better.
Out of the Three TTS 8000's I have owned, I am confident one was with a Dry Bearing Housing, but I can check the new owners report once more to confirm this.
The Two TT's I still have have been Dry when inspected.
The Spindle was tarnished and not bright, and the Gold Dust on the probe led to the thought the Lubrication had been lost over time.
Oil came to mind, the reports of Grease being discovered are not recollected from my earliest discussions, and the discovery of Grease has been made known and remembered from the recent threads I have posted in.
found it.
Google Translate
regardless though oil is the right lubricant for bronze oilite bearings,grease would just block the pores.
Google Translate
regardless though oil is the right lubricant for bronze oilite bearings,grease would just block the pores.
Last edited:
Choosing a Method of Lubrication is an important consideration.
In the hierarchy of considerations, Lubrication would be at the Top if a Bush>Spindle Interface fitting with a tolerance was not of a condition that allows for a excessive movement.
This is the condition that in my view is the Top of the List to be resolved when present.
My attempts with using a Lubrication to remove the most noticeable movement was not permanently maintained.
The condition returned.
The thought of producing a Interface that has a much improved tolerance and will also allow for the Spindle to rotate with a true axis is in my view a much improved interface.
Hence once this is achieved, the flexion that the Bearing Housing can occur, as a result of being mounted into the pressed bowl, is another area worth a consideration to produce a simplistic method to overcome the impaction of a flexion.
As stated previously much of my knowledge of a Bearing comes from my history with Lenco TT's
The Lenco users have shown various methods to correct/improve their discovered condition.
A variant of one of these methods will be reasonably easy to utilise.
In the hierarchy of considerations, Lubrication would be at the Top if a Bush>Spindle Interface fitting with a tolerance was not of a condition that allows for a excessive movement.
This is the condition that in my view is the Top of the List to be resolved when present.
My attempts with using a Lubrication to remove the most noticeable movement was not permanently maintained.
The condition returned.
The thought of producing a Interface that has a much improved tolerance and will also allow for the Spindle to rotate with a true axis is in my view a much improved interface.
Hence once this is achieved, the flexion that the Bearing Housing can occur, as a result of being mounted into the pressed bowl, is another area worth a consideration to produce a simplistic method to overcome the impaction of a flexion.
As stated previously much of my knowledge of a Bearing comes from my history with Lenco TT's
The Lenco users have shown various methods to correct/improve their discovered condition.
A variant of one of these methods will be reasonably easy to utilise.
How much flex is in the housing? Has the flex been measured under normal operating ?
A simple brass ring or bronze under the bowl to strengthen the bow and bearing housing sandwich would work.
All of the above would be achieved if the rubber washer can be made oil tight.
I have an idea which in the coming weeks I will machine up on my lathe, it will incorporate o-rings
A simple brass ring or bronze under the bowl to strengthen the bow and bearing housing sandwich would work.
All of the above would be achieved if the rubber washer can be made oil tight.
I have an idea which in the coming weeks I will machine up on my lathe, it will incorporate o-rings
Last edited:
What's the matter? Either you use the oilites as forseen or you discard their self lubrication and use an additional lubrication instead. So if grease is in, grease will do the job. No need for the impregnated oil any longer.
Beside this, I'm in doubt if a low turning platter spindle w/o significant load and hence no significant temperature increase that brnings the oil to the surface is the correct application for oilites at all...
The Description for the applications of a Oilite Plus are attached below.
This version of a Bush Material does seem to lend itself to the use within a Bearing Housing.
It would need more clarification of the working environment to show the effects of the other parts that will create the Temperatures, that are required to get the Plus Version to perform at its most effective as a interface part.
Again from my end this is for information only, I intend on using the Torlon as the Bush Material.
One of the most satisfying areas of this thread, it that there is no suggestion that other contributors are required to do something to change their TTS 8000.
The recognition of some of the concerns that are being raised, are influencing a curiosity and investigation into the feasibility of the concept of making a change.
There are a few different levels of this investigation into the feasibility being made known, and investigations are coming together to discover the value of a change to the original design.
Whether the ideas for a change of a design have the affect that they can be divisive, is yet to be seen.
Where an individual will accept a cut off point to a selection of changes, will be off interest.
____________________________________________________________________
The advantage of Oilite Plus is realized in applications in which mixed-film, and boundary lubrication is exhibited.
These kinds of conditions occur in well over 75% of all self-lubricating bearings applications.
Shaft oscillation or slow speed, intermittent use, pulsating or uneven loads are conditions that inhibit full-film lubrication from developing or being
maintained.
These applications would benefit significantly from using Oilite Plus.
Oilite Plus features a complex bearing system that bearing includes a finely dispersed PTFE in an oxidation and corrosion inhibiting turbine oil.
On average a 17% reduction of friction will result in smoother and quieter operation, easier “break-in”, lower power requirements and longer life.
Applications include all equipment in the Oilite section with emphasis on agricultural and
construction equipment, material handling machines, man-lifts and computer peripherals.
This version of a Bush Material does seem to lend itself to the use within a Bearing Housing.
It would need more clarification of the working environment to show the effects of the other parts that will create the Temperatures, that are required to get the Plus Version to perform at its most effective as a interface part.
Again from my end this is for information only, I intend on using the Torlon as the Bush Material.
One of the most satisfying areas of this thread, it that there is no suggestion that other contributors are required to do something to change their TTS 8000.
The recognition of some of the concerns that are being raised, are influencing a curiosity and investigation into the feasibility of the concept of making a change.
There are a few different levels of this investigation into the feasibility being made known, and investigations are coming together to discover the value of a change to the original design.
Whether the ideas for a change of a design have the affect that they can be divisive, is yet to be seen.
Where an individual will accept a cut off point to a selection of changes, will be off interest.
____________________________________________________________________
The advantage of Oilite Plus is realized in applications in which mixed-film, and boundary lubrication is exhibited.
These kinds of conditions occur in well over 75% of all self-lubricating bearings applications.
Shaft oscillation or slow speed, intermittent use, pulsating or uneven loads are conditions that inhibit full-film lubrication from developing or being
maintained.
These applications would benefit significantly from using Oilite Plus.
Oilite Plus features a complex bearing system that bearing includes a finely dispersed PTFE in an oxidation and corrosion inhibiting turbine oil.
On average a 17% reduction of friction will result in smoother and quieter operation, easier “break-in”, lower power requirements and longer life.
Applications include all equipment in the Oilite section with emphasis on agricultural and
construction equipment, material handling machines, man-lifts and computer peripherals.
There's not enough clearance on the MK3 bearing for grease. Most will wipe off upon insertion, proper dispersion will not occur, and there are signs of oil separation. On top of that it's changing a bearing that is designed for periodic maintenance to maintenance-free, so you don't get proper dispersion to the thrust either. It'll appear to run fine for weeks or months, but when you get to a few years down the road there will be significant metal-to-metal contact and permanent surface damage. Consider what Garrard did on the 301 to ensure proper grease dispersion. Granted a lot has changed with lubricants since then, though my point isn't to universally prescribe what does or does not work, rather to point at that there are a myriad of considerations that I don't see being addressed, and that just because someone who appears to be an authority did it doesn't mean it was a considered approach.
I can't comment on the applicability for the TTS-8000. I ruled it out for my examples and everything else reported is anecdotal so there's really no information to go on. How loose is loose? How much pressure is finger pressure?
How loose is loose? How much pressure is finger pressure?
It is an all in discussion, and certainly will raise questions when alternative methods and ideas to be used on the table are aired.
If a focus is kept closely on a TTs 8000 Model, then this model does not seem to have received much interest in having it modified, then the idea of changes occurring can take a time to absorb for those who are unfamiliar with the concept.
If the focus broadens and extends to looking into other TT Models, it will come to the forefront that other Vintage TT's have been receiving changes to replace original designs.
The changes that other TT's have undergone on a Platter Spindle > Thrust Pad Interface
is totally achievable on a TTS 8000 and is achievable to be a retrofit.
Additionally if a New Part is used, it can easily be exchanged for a Original Part if so wished.
Myself, I do not know how much Lubrication, will be required.
The idea of replacing a Part that is able to allow a lubrication to leech through it is a condition that in my mind is worth improving.
If a Part can be found that is simplistic to use and can retain a Lubrication then for me that is a more attractive option, and opens up options of variants on Lubrication.
If such a Seal is discovered, it will certainly allow others who adopt the method to consider Lubrication Methods with a different approach to the ones available at present.
Grease might be a choice, or alternatively, a small well of Oil in the Base with a Smearing of Oil on the Spindle might be a choice, or as already referenced a Deep Fill of a Oil could be chosen.
A Torlon Thrust Pad in contact with a Torlon Interference Fit Ball, would be very low in its coefficient of friction. .
Other Permutations of materials could improve on this.
A Torlon Bush will also have a Low Coefficient of Friction.
Using materials with a Low Coefficient of Friction is in my mind, attractive as a material.
I had been investigating other Thermoplastics that are recognised for their properties, but small quantities are not seen on a regular basis, for this reason I went with the Engineers recommendation for Torlon.
It is not referred to as commonly as a PEEK or POM Acetal Material, that is to be found in many discussions about bearing modifications.
Torlon does become a more regular referred to Material, when a TT like the SP10 MkII is having a Thrust Pad exchange take place.
The finger pressure is in my own investigations, no different to the Finger Pressure that has been applied to my other owned TT's.
Do the other TT's all have similar amounts of a Play in a Spindle Housing ?
It is not possible to answer when using the fingers to assess the Bearings as there is not any level of movement detected.
With the TTS 8000 the movement is instantly detectable and the Tapping between materials is audible and noticeable along with the detect movement.
An observer has picked up on the Tapping Noise from approx' 8ft away, with myself as a barrier to the sound, at that is the distance from the TT to the HiFi Room Door.
It is an all in discussion, and certainly will raise questions when alternative methods and ideas to be used on the table are aired.
If a focus is kept closely on a TTs 8000 Model, then this model does not seem to have received much interest in having it modified, then the idea of changes occurring can take a time to absorb for those who are unfamiliar with the concept.
If the focus broadens and extends to looking into other TT Models, it will come to the forefront that other Vintage TT's have been receiving changes to replace original designs.
The changes that other TT's have undergone on a Platter Spindle > Thrust Pad Interface
is totally achievable on a TTS 8000 and is achievable to be a retrofit.
Additionally if a New Part is used, it can easily be exchanged for a Original Part if so wished.
Myself, I do not know how much Lubrication, will be required.
The idea of replacing a Part that is able to allow a lubrication to leech through it is a condition that in my mind is worth improving.
If a Part can be found that is simplistic to use and can retain a Lubrication then for me that is a more attractive option, and opens up options of variants on Lubrication.
If such a Seal is discovered, it will certainly allow others who adopt the method to consider Lubrication Methods with a different approach to the ones available at present.
Grease might be a choice, or alternatively, a small well of Oil in the Base with a Smearing of Oil on the Spindle might be a choice, or as already referenced a Deep Fill of a Oil could be chosen.
A Torlon Thrust Pad in contact with a Torlon Interference Fit Ball, would be very low in its coefficient of friction. .
Other Permutations of materials could improve on this.
A Torlon Bush will also have a Low Coefficient of Friction.
Using materials with a Low Coefficient of Friction is in my mind, attractive as a material.
I had been investigating other Thermoplastics that are recognised for their properties, but small quantities are not seen on a regular basis, for this reason I went with the Engineers recommendation for Torlon.
It is not referred to as commonly as a PEEK or POM Acetal Material, that is to be found in many discussions about bearing modifications.
Torlon does become a more regular referred to Material, when a TT like the SP10 MkII is having a Thrust Pad exchange take place.
The finger pressure is in my own investigations, no different to the Finger Pressure that has been applied to my other owned TT's.
Do the other TT's all have similar amounts of a Play in a Spindle Housing ?
It is not possible to answer when using the fingers to assess the Bearings as there is not any level of movement detected.
With the TTS 8000 the movement is instantly detectable and the Tapping between materials is audible and noticeable along with the detect movement.
An observer has picked up on the Tapping Noise from approx' 8ft away, with myself as a barrier to the sound, at that is the distance from the TT to the HiFi Room Door.
I posted this on Audio Science long ago. I thought some of you may like the link out of interest :
These comments are from one of the designing engineers of the listed turntables.
The following comment and discussion link* may be of interest to those with vintage Victor and Yamaha GT-2000 direct drive turntables if they haven't seen it already. there are 4 pages of comments re. GT-2000 turntable at his page - see the link at the bottom of each page :
YAMAHA GT-2000
TRANSLATION :
"Today we will discuss maintenance and repair of direct drive motors.
First of all, regarding maintenance, I think you should basically do nothing. (Lol)
Some of you may be worried about replenishing the bearing oil and grease, but if you replenish oil other than the one used by the manufacturer at the time of shipment, the bearing may be damaged in the worst case. There is a possibility.
Even if it seems that there is almost no oil when the spindle is pulled out from the bearing, if oilless bearing is used for the bearing, it is included in the sintered porous bearing, so it may not be necessary to replenish oil There is.
This oilless bearing is used for Victor TT-101, TT-81, etc.
The GT-2000 uses a special thrust bearing (bearing that supports longitudinal load) so that it can withstand heavyweight turntables, so you should avoid disassembling it first.
This thrust bearing is called fluid dynamic bearing (FDB). A spiral groove is provided in the thrust and grease is collected at the center of rotation to support the load by the pressure. You can avoid it. The grease used in this part is a special one, and since many experiments have been repeated and the optimum one has been adopted, it may cause burn-in if it is replaced with something that is irrelevant.
By the way, Kenwood's KP-1100 and KP-9010 use this FDB for the radial bearing (bearing that supports the radial direction), and in this case the shaft is precisely grooved.
Probably the oil should be carefully selected for this bearing as well, so it is better to avoid replacing it with a non-shipping oil."
*This link was originally posted by Jonathan Carr on Audiogon a few years ago.
These comments are from one of the designing engineers of the listed turntables.
The following comment and discussion link* may be of interest to those with vintage Victor and Yamaha GT-2000 direct drive turntables if they haven't seen it already. there are 4 pages of comments re. GT-2000 turntable at his page - see the link at the bottom of each page :
YAMAHA GT-2000
TRANSLATION :
"Today we will discuss maintenance and repair of direct drive motors.
First of all, regarding maintenance, I think you should basically do nothing. (Lol)
Some of you may be worried about replenishing the bearing oil and grease, but if you replenish oil other than the one used by the manufacturer at the time of shipment, the bearing may be damaged in the worst case. There is a possibility.
Even if it seems that there is almost no oil when the spindle is pulled out from the bearing, if oilless bearing is used for the bearing, it is included in the sintered porous bearing, so it may not be necessary to replenish oil There is.
This oilless bearing is used for Victor TT-101, TT-81, etc.
The GT-2000 uses a special thrust bearing (bearing that supports longitudinal load) so that it can withstand heavyweight turntables, so you should avoid disassembling it first.
This thrust bearing is called fluid dynamic bearing (FDB). A spiral groove is provided in the thrust and grease is collected at the center of rotation to support the load by the pressure. You can avoid it. The grease used in this part is a special one, and since many experiments have been repeated and the optimum one has been adopted, it may cause burn-in if it is replaced with something that is irrelevant.
By the way, Kenwood's KP-1100 and KP-9010 use this FDB for the radial bearing (bearing that supports the radial direction), and in this case the shaft is precisely grooved.
Probably the oil should be carefully selected for this bearing as well, so it is better to avoid replacing it with a non-shipping oil."
*This link was originally posted by Jonathan Carr on Audiogon a few years ago.