BSC will help, but I've yet to hear a 'FR' driver that didn't sound better overall when at ear height and toe'd in to cross at 'x' distance in front my face. This tends to average out the response somewhat.
If you look at this interactive chart you'll see why it's so 'bright', 'detailed' with a strange resonance ['honk']: Interactive Frequency Chart from Independent Recording Network – Alexey Khlystov – My creativity on the one page
Without enough info about the drivers, its detailed dimensions to even guess, you'll have to use the mic to find it, though at ~13543/pi/575 = ~7.5" diameter it's pretty big and notice yours is a bump and Rutcho's is a dip!: Sonido SFR-175 Alnico Fullrange Loudspeaker Measurements Data and Information Full Range
GM
Thanks. I’ll try some listening with them toed in. I have heard people say that but I didn’t know to do it the way you explained.
Also the 575hz ish peak. Its intensity changes depending on how I position the speakers - pointed straight vs pointed at me directly. Here is the baffling thing. Let’s say I play a 575hz tone on the right speaker and I’m in front of it, ear level looking straight forward. I can hear the tone in my right ear only. It like I a have a noise canceling earphone on my left ear. So I move to the right a few inches so me left ear is now where my Right ear is.... still the same. I hear the tone in my right ear. My brain thinks the sound is coming off the wall to the right and not straight in front of me.
The other spthing is that the peak doesn’t bother me when I listen to music.
Also the 575hz ish peak. Its intensity changes depending on how I position the speakers - pointed straight vs pointed at me directly. Here is the baffling thing. Let’s say I play a 575hz tone on the right speaker and I’m in front of it, ear level looking straight forward. I can hear the tone in my right ear only. It like I a have a noise canceling earphone on my left ear. So I move to the right a few inches so me left ear is now where my Right ear is.... still the same. I hear the tone in my right ear. My brain thinks the sound is coming off the wall to the right and not straight in front of me.
The other spthing is that the peak doesn’t bother me when I listen to music.
Attached are the published specs.
The driver is 140 mm wide. That’s the cone and the surround (I think that’s what it’s called).
The paper cone is 123mm.
Thanks... I know it might be simple stuff for you all but this is all fun learning for me. Honestly the speakers sound great, like really great and I am super happy, But I want to do some tweaking to learn how some of this works.
Hi,
like GM, I´m nearly always, when listening to fullrange speakers, ending up with toe-in, having the center axis crossed slightly forward of the listening position. This usually gives the best 3-dimensional effect.
BUT that will not cure any baffle step effects. These are only to be dealt with:
- Filtering, may it be passive or active
- A very large baffle
- A second driver which works below the baffle-step frequency
The effects of listening off-axis at angles are clear to see from Rutcho´s pages: a reduction of level in the treble, and this is caused by beaming. Rutcho´s SONIDO data show more: breakups starting at app. 3.5kHz and up, leading to uneven treble and a piercing sound.
These areas may be suppressed to some amount with clever filtering, BUT:
- it needs to be sensibly done. Too much will make the driver dull
- a certain ascent towards higher frequencies is wanted, to keep the power response most even
Now, this is nothing exclusive to the SONIDO driver, nearly all fullrange drivers have these characteristic issues to some degree. In my experience, so far all fullrange drivers benefitted from a sensible correction.
But this of course needs to be done right, a measurement microphone and some software is needed, all else is guesswork. Finetuning should of course be by ear, but REW, DATS and Xsim will show you easily what´s going on.
Don´t be afraid of having passive filter parts in line with your drivers; as long as you care for quality parts, the positive effects will outweigh any concerns about purity...
Sadly, all this doesn´t come cheap. The cheapest solution will be computer equalisation, but that isn´t for me. As always, loudspeaker design is a set of compromises, and one has to choose her/his poison...
All the best
Mattes
like GM, I´m nearly always, when listening to fullrange speakers, ending up with toe-in, having the center axis crossed slightly forward of the listening position. This usually gives the best 3-dimensional effect.
BUT that will not cure any baffle step effects. These are only to be dealt with:
- Filtering, may it be passive or active
- A very large baffle
- A second driver which works below the baffle-step frequency
The effects of listening off-axis at angles are clear to see from Rutcho´s pages: a reduction of level in the treble, and this is caused by beaming. Rutcho´s SONIDO data show more: breakups starting at app. 3.5kHz and up, leading to uneven treble and a piercing sound.
These areas may be suppressed to some amount with clever filtering, BUT:
- it needs to be sensibly done. Too much will make the driver dull
- a certain ascent towards higher frequencies is wanted, to keep the power response most even
Now, this is nothing exclusive to the SONIDO driver, nearly all fullrange drivers have these characteristic issues to some degree. In my experience, so far all fullrange drivers benefitted from a sensible correction.
But this of course needs to be done right, a measurement microphone and some software is needed, all else is guesswork. Finetuning should of course be by ear, but REW, DATS and Xsim will show you easily what´s going on.
Don´t be afraid of having passive filter parts in line with your drivers; as long as you care for quality parts, the positive effects will outweigh any concerns about purity...
Sadly, all this doesn´t come cheap. The cheapest solution will be computer equalisation, but that isn´t for me. As always, loudspeaker design is a set of compromises, and one has to choose her/his poison...
All the best
Mattes
I downloaded Xsim will start messing around with that.
On Rutcho's page, he reported differences in the measured parameters vs. the published parameters.
Is it advisable to use a DATS to measure each speaker so I know the exact parameters?
On Rutcho's page, he reported differences in the measured parameters vs. the published parameters.
Is it advisable to use a DATS to measure each speaker so I know the exact parameters?
For your review......
I just traced my measurement using FPGraphTracer, then imported it into Xsim, then used the values from an online BSC calculator and here is the before and after.
It looks much flatter to me now. I messed around with the different values to see how it affected the outcome and it seemed like the calculator values work just fine.
I've also attached the XSim file.
I just traced my measurement using FPGraphTracer, then imported it into Xsim, then used the values from an online BSC calculator and here is the before and after.
It looks much flatter to me now. I messed around with the different values to see how it affected the outcome and it seemed like the calculator values work just fine.
I've also attached the XSim file.
Attachments
I got the parts and tested out a few different values for R in the BSC to see how much attenuation would come down.
The first image is a comparison showing single driver, measurements (in room) from 1m, top = no correction, middle using 7.5R and bottom using 10R.
In total it brings down the high end by just under 10 dB.
The second image is a 7.5R BSC and my sub turned on to fill in some low end.
So now I’ll be listening to the 7.5R for a while and see how it sounds.
The first image is a comparison showing single driver, measurements (in room) from 1m, top = no correction, middle using 7.5R and bottom using 10R.
In total it brings down the high end by just under 10 dB.
The second image is a 7.5R BSC and my sub turned on to fill in some low end.
So now I’ll be listening to the 7.5R for a while and see how it sounds.
Attachments
@JC - I've been listening to music on them for probably a month so I think they are sufficiently broken in. I can't tell if they changed in sound because I've been messing around with alignments, room placement, etc.
Adason - I plan on taking those measurements at some point and I can post them.
Adason - I plan on taking those measurements at some point and I can post them.
You're welcome!
Indeed! It's kept me amused for going on ~67 yrs now.
What's interesting is that the factory response is a 'best case' one for this type driver and Rutcho's is what I usually see, be it a hand crafted or manufactured one, then there's yours that makes no sense to me, so got nothing to explain it other than something in the way you're measuring it.
GM
I definitely am not an expert at measuring so please take my measurements as an amateur pretending to know what he is doing.
I also own the Mark Audio 10p and neither of Rutcho’s measurements match what I measure with either speaker.
One difference which might be important or not is that he is putting the drivers in sealed boxes of what seems to be a pre-made box. Mine are in a box either designed by Dave or Scott for that specific driver. Not sure if that matters.
I also own the Mark Audio 10p and neither of Rutcho’s measurements match what I measure with either speaker.
One difference which might be important or not is that he is putting the drivers in sealed boxes of what seems to be a pre-made box. Mine are in a box either designed by Dave or Scott for that specific driver. Not sure if that matters.
Very important as Dave noted; Rutcho's is typical of a driver clamped to something in free space or on a large IEC baffle like most manufacturer's use for accurate comparisons.
Anyway, EQ or a larger baffle for yours.
GM
This last week I stumbled upon an article on how to use my mic and REW to obtain more accurate measurements. So I set up a measuring test in a large room, placed the speaker driver on a stand so it was 4 feet from the floor and ceiling, took a measurement then removed the room effects. I think the results were much more accurate, but only accurate above 350hz or so.
Here is a link in case any other noobs like me read this - Loudspeaker measurements
Here are the results at 0, 10, 20 and 30.
Here is a link in case any other noobs like me read this - Loudspeaker measurements
Here are the results at 0, 10, 20 and 30.
Attachments
I also measured the before and after of my baffle step circuit and determined that when using proper SPL and impedance measurements that I didn’t have before, my circuit doesn’t work as intended. The circuit was modeled using in room measurements and without impedance.
So my question to all the more experienced builders: Should I redo the circuit based on these new measurements? The BSC I’m using measures well if I’m using “in-room measurements”. It also sounds great in the room.
So my question to all the more experienced builders: Should I redo the circuit based on these new measurements? The BSC I’m using measures well if I’m using “in-room measurements”. It also sounds great in the room.
I thought I’d come back to this old thread now that I have been listening to these speakers for a good six months. One thing that has changed significantly is that moved, and in doing so, got me a much bigger dedicated music room.
I really, really enjoy these speakers, especially in my new room. After much testing I found the best place to put the speakers and to angle them slightly outside each ear so they are 15’ish degrees off axis. I did many other things to get my system working but the bottom line is this - the speakers sound fantastic. The speakers total disappear and the entire room fills with sound. I can listen for long periods of time without getting fatigued. An especially good combination of all my gear is listening to vinyl with my VPI -> pearl 2 phono-> Schiit Freya -> Aleph J.
What I don’t like? The optimal listen position is small but I think that’s just how larger full range speakers work.
Thanks Scott for the design and thanks to everyone else for tips. You can probably pick up that I learned a lot between my first post to my last post and I still don’t know half as much as most of you all.
Some pics Sonido Tamaraw Speakers - Google Photos
I really, really enjoy these speakers, especially in my new room. After much testing I found the best place to put the speakers and to angle them slightly outside each ear so they are 15’ish degrees off axis. I did many other things to get my system working but the bottom line is this - the speakers sound fantastic. The speakers total disappear and the entire room fills with sound. I can listen for long periods of time without getting fatigued. An especially good combination of all my gear is listening to vinyl with my VPI -> pearl 2 phono-> Schiit Freya -> Aleph J.
What I don’t like? The optimal listen position is small but I think that’s just how larger full range speakers work.
Thanks Scott for the design and thanks to everyone else for tips. You can probably pick up that I learned a lot between my first post to my last post and I still don’t know half as much as most of you all.
Some pics Sonido Tamaraw Speakers - Google Photos
Attachments
FWIW, with rare exception, larger point source drivers, horns image best overall when toe'd in to cross somewhere in front of the 'sweet spot' and more often than not it's based on a three wide sofa with the left speaker aimed at the right seating position and vice versa.
Once found, then do any response tweaking/fine tuning.
Once found, then do any response tweaking/fine tuning.