Just because all of the competition is over priced doesn't mean you need to over price too. I see the paper Satori line as representing the kind of price manufacturers should charge for their top line drivers, unless something exotic, like beryllium or diamond, are used.
There is nothing about the new excels that justifies their price tag except for the grossly inflated cost of some of the competition. From a materials and construction stand point the new excels are no different to the old ones and SEAS are a decade late to the game in using FEA. Charging just for boutique-ness isn't an acceptable excuse. Being price competitive used to mean something. Where manufacturers would replace an older product, with a new improved version, but an important selling point would be that it costs just the same, or very similar, to the out going version.
The issue here is that SEAS drivers, today, represent extremely poor value for money. SB Acoustics standard range essentially out perform everything that SEAS make, including all old excels, except for the odd niche driver. They are way behind the competition. In an ideal world SEAS would be discontinuing all the old excel drivers and be replacing them with the new ones at equal cost. Then do the same for their prestige drivers. Has anyone even used a prestige woofer since SB came on the scene?
To me these new excel drivers make the ScanSpeak ellipticor seem like a good deal and the same with the illuminator. At least with those you get massive underhung motors using huge amounts of neo and small reflection free motors. Then overhung but using all those radial slugs in the ellipticor. Plus the oval voice coil, as worthless as that might be, it would have still required extensive additional tooling. ScanSpeak are actually trying new things and being innovative with your money. The SEAS on the other hand? Oh right SB did that ten years ago. If the new excels had replaced the old ones at equivalent cost that would have made sense then they could have released a range with their hexadym magnet system at this massively elevated price.
Technology improves but usually when that happens it's out with the old, in with the new, and without price creep except for inflation. Unless the new technology is significantly more expensive to produce. I mean look at your example of cars and what you get these days in a basic car Vs a basic car 20 years ago (how old the old excels are). A Civic is still a Civic and fits into that same price bracket yet today's is a lot more advanced. With these new excels SEAS have released a new Civic but priced them like something from Acura.
Scanspeak isn't immune to this either. We have the reintroduced classic range, the revelators, the illuminators and now the ellipticor. All costing more than their predecessors. Well tell me when are the old going to be discontinued and a new range, at equivalent cost but significantly improved performance, going to take their place? Or in 20 years are we going to have superlators, essentialators and definitators as additional ranges. We will still have all the old ranges, at their respective price points, but for any technological improvement we'll have to buy the new range and by that time a 6.5" woofer will be $10,000 and we'll have the third even newer excel products on the market. It's almost like the driver manufacturers are competing to see who can make their next products even more expensive than the other. Rather than them all trying to give better price/performance than the next as a way of keeping prices acceptable Vs what they actually cost to actually make.
Well you are free to vote with your wallet, as we all are. Goods and services are always priced at what a willing customer will pay. If SEAS only sells a few of these drivers, and they wish to increase production, they will have to lower prices. If the drivers sell well at the current price, then I don’t expect a price reduction.
Perhaps SEAS has such inefficient production process and business practices that the current pricing is the only way they make money. If so, they will soon be out of business. But I doubt this is true.
I agree with you that the Satori papyrus drivers are exceptionally good value. And I think my SB17CAC35 and SB26CDC drivers are quite amazing for the money. Seas is obviously not positioning itself in the market to be the “good value for the money” driver. But that does not mean they will not sell.
I do not believe there is anything unethical about pricing goods and services at what customers will pay. If I owned shares in a company and the CEO chose to lower prices on a hot-selling item based on the principle that the list price should be cost of production + some modest profit margin, I would be very annoyed. I would vote for new management.
When I have an electrician or mechanic do work for me, I pay them the $100 / hour that is the going rate here. I don’t question them about their monthly expenses to see if they are making too much money.
These kind of discussions can get out of hand, so I will end by saying that if we could discuss this in person, at a pub, over a pint or two, I doubt we would disagree on much. I am not in a hurry to buy one of these new SEAS drivers either.
Jim
Perhaps SEAS has such inefficient production process and business practices that the current pricing is the only way they make money. If so, they will soon be out of business. But I doubt this is true.
I agree with you that the Satori papyrus drivers are exceptionally good value. And I think my SB17CAC35 and SB26CDC drivers are quite amazing for the money. Seas is obviously not positioning itself in the market to be the “good value for the money” driver. But that does not mean they will not sell.
I do not believe there is anything unethical about pricing goods and services at what customers will pay. If I owned shares in a company and the CEO chose to lower prices on a hot-selling item based on the principle that the list price should be cost of production + some modest profit margin, I would be very annoyed. I would vote for new management.
When I have an electrician or mechanic do work for me, I pay them the $100 / hour that is the going rate here. I don’t question them about their monthly expenses to see if they are making too much money.
These kind of discussions can get out of hand, so I will end by saying that if we could discuss this in person, at a pub, over a pint or two, I doubt we would disagree on much. I am not in a hurry to buy one of these new SEAS drivers either.
Jim
Almost the entire "NE" line they have is great. The NE180 is my favorite 7" driver under $200 and the NE149 is also a close contender for smaller builds, even as a dedicated midrange driver. They are a great value for money and are extremely well made. I dont think you'll find other midbass drivers under $100 with copper sleeves, titanium VC formers and open rear spiders that come close to these.
Well here’s a counterpoint-
Scan-Speak- 30 employees
B&W Speakers- 300+ employees
If Scan-Speak fold, or stop supplying to DIY market; then that’s a loss to us here, on DIY Audio.
I’m not sure if you’re aware, by Peerless/Tymphany seem to be transitioning to OEM.
NE drivers may soon go bye bye. Thanks Tymphany China
I asked my local distributor about the new Tymphany SDF 10-15” subwoofers.
Eg. SDF-300F75PR03-04
12” subwoofer; 16kg Xmax 21.9mm, BL 18.7
Peerless Drivers - Tymphany
Minimum order quantity 500 units…
Scan-Speak- 30 employees
B&W Speakers- 300+ employees
If Scan-Speak fold, or stop supplying to DIY market; then that’s a loss to us here, on DIY Audio.
I’m not sure if you’re aware, by Peerless/Tymphany seem to be transitioning to OEM.
NE drivers may soon go bye bye. Thanks Tymphany China
I asked my local distributor about the new Tymphany SDF 10-15” subwoofers.
Eg. SDF-300F75PR03-04
12” subwoofer; 16kg Xmax 21.9mm, BL 18.7
Peerless Drivers - Tymphany
Minimum order quantity 500 units…
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Peerless/Tymphany change in policy is certainly a nasty unwelcome surprise for sure.
Before Covid I was giving serious consideration to this or a customised version. However shipping cost increases and dramatic increase in damage from shipping to Australia since Covid have put paid to that -still what do you guru's think the potential for greatness is there -no way I could do a cabinet like that
HD1870 HD1871 HiFi hi end speaker VIFA NE flagship unit silk film tweeter loudspeaker|Combination Speakers| - AliExpress
Before Covid I was giving serious consideration to this or a customised version. However shipping cost increases and dramatic increase in damage from shipping to Australia since Covid have put paid to that -still what do you guru's think the potential for greatness is there -no way I could do a cabinet like that
HD1870 HD1871 HiFi hi end speaker VIFA NE flagship unit silk film tweeter loudspeaker|Combination Speakers| - AliExpress
It has been quite some time since the NE saw the light of day ... the NE149 is expensive here in germany around 188 euro a piece ... now on clearance at PE .. tymphany website says discontinued for both NE149 & NE180 ... to good for the market too good a competitor driver?
but I remember soundstagenetwork tested the NE265 (a low efficiency design) in bassreflex with 65W applied - 5dB thermal compression! A 12inch JBL woofer showed only 1dB under same test conditions! (remember at tuning freq all reflex systems draw a lot of current which will heat up the VC)
A cross-sectional view of the NE149W shows the neo magnet is of very little size :
https://d2t1xqejof9utc.cloudfront.net/screenshots/pics/b97e8236b8a94740540034e8e6872143/large.JPG
Earlier Neo magnets had irresistive losses with rising temperature as low as 40deg celsius maybe they have improved by now have not checked til now ... corrosion resistance was bad too!
but I remember soundstagenetwork tested the NE265 (a low efficiency design) in bassreflex with 65W applied - 5dB thermal compression! A 12inch JBL woofer showed only 1dB under same test conditions! (remember at tuning freq all reflex systems draw a lot of current which will heat up the VC)
A cross-sectional view of the NE149W shows the neo magnet is of very little size :
https://d2t1xqejof9utc.cloudfront.net/screenshots/pics/b97e8236b8a94740540034e8e6872143/large.JPG
Earlier Neo magnets had irresistive losses with rising temperature as low as 40deg celsius maybe they have improved by now have not checked til now ... corrosion resistance was bad too!
Due to the transport increasing costs, just the 5 microns objects from China are free for any destination in the world with no restriction !
After the slow silk roads, they improved to the max with fast air roads, - called the FAIR concept, lol... no minimal quantity... viral business, sort of !
Of course it's a commercial trap : not enough loudspeakers brands in the world to develop enough models speakers that can care of 500 units order- So not so profitable for the driver seller : see it as an incentive for the purchasing services of the loudspeaker brand to use more expensive drivers not limited to the 500 quantity : same for local distributors. They should resist the trap and learn their purchasing services to dictate their condition to see others driver brands !
SB acoustics made the same with some famous models (SB29RDC). Two main reason : supply chain is expensive and you want to make money by selling more expensive the serie ranges that are more premium for margin ! A third reason could be : the main consumer market became Asia !
Companies and Markets became mads : they want a two digit margin, diving the world in more pollution, fast monney and misery ! The story will tell : they become rich and then, but depolluting the World, they made the race to death to be the first to check in for spatial turism ! Pathetic !
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I know we're talking about the end of an era in terms of being able to buy drive units but I think we are being a little premature. I can see some companies disappearing into the OEM market but not all.
One thing that I did consider is the movement of the right to repair. I do not know to what end this will go but it does, perhaps, imply that if the point is to make obtaining genuine replacement parts really easy, then maybe this will extend to drive units too. Maybe in the future all speaker manufacturers will have to have an online store for replacements drivers that anyone can access. I don't know but if right to repair becomes a big deal getting parts might be easier than it is now.
One thing that I did consider is the movement of the right to repair. I do not know to what end this will go but it does, perhaps, imply that if the point is to make obtaining genuine replacement parts really easy, then maybe this will extend to drive units too. Maybe in the future all speaker manufacturers will have to have an online store for replacements drivers that anyone can access. I don't know but if right to repair becomes a big deal getting parts might be easier than it is now.
The cross section is wrong. there is one neodymuim magnet below and on top of the pole piece et the pole piece is only 6mm width.
Thanks for this info about different magnet construction .. maybe the design has changed over the years! (yours is probably newer)
I noticed Meniscus Audio has a picture of this driver with different tinsel lead orientation :
https://meniscusaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/NE149W.jpg
Does someone know how sound transparent the black spider is? (at least, visually)
A resonant and reflective spider makes no sense in such driver design ... if you check Kartesian Audio drivers from France you see a very very open weave structure in their spiders!
Not a completely new feature but very rare!
Let's hope the Vifa/Tymphany NE series (NE123/149/180) will stay alive on the market for some years at the current price tag , would be too sad to see them vaporizing!
happy hobby to all ..
I noticed Meniscus Audio has a picture of this driver with different tinsel lead orientation :
https://meniscusaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/NE149W.jpg
Does someone know how sound transparent the black spider is? (at least, visually)
A resonant and reflective spider makes no sense in such driver design ... if you check Kartesian Audio drivers from France you see a very very open weave structure in their spiders!
Not a completely new feature but very rare!
Let's hope the Vifa/Tymphany NE series (NE123/149/180) will stay alive on the market for some years at the current price tag , would be too sad to see them vaporizing!
happy hobby to all ..
Many different rubber types but how long will they last under normal conditiones :
Metflex produce components in a wide range of rubber materialsMetflex
A fabric spider can last very very long but most rubbers not , maybe 30 years ...
Seems to be the best kept transducer/manufacturer secret which rubber type last longer than 30 years ...
any idea about that?
Metflex produce components in a wide range of rubber materialsMetflex
A fabric spider can last very very long but most rubbers not , maybe 30 years ...
Seems to be the best kept transducer/manufacturer secret which rubber type last longer than 30 years ...
any idea about that?
Here we go:
Good driver
Good price
Test Bench: The BWX-6501 Midbass from MISCO’s Bold North Audio Line | audioXpress
Good driver
Good price
Test Bench: The BWX-6501 Midbass from MISCO’s Bold North Audio Line | audioXpress
I've updated the old measurements with IMD and the voice coil HD distortion data:
Satori MR13P-8 | HiFiCompass
Satori WO24P-4 | HiFiCompass
Satori MR13P-8 | HiFiCompass
Satori WO24P-4 | HiFiCompass
Yes, Kartesian have some very nice drivers developed.
Here are some Wom120_vMS 4.5 measurements posted, looks good.
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