Or a Musiland/DIYEDEN MD10, which is the SVDAC05 with a better display & headphone amp.
But in case you weren't happy with the stock OP275, you'd have to desolder it (it's SMD) and solder an AD8599 or an OPA1612.
But in case you weren't happy with the stock OP275, you'd have to desolder it (it's SMD) and solder an AD8599 or an OPA1612.
Forgot to say that the stock Super Pro 707 fits your sonic taste too, thanks to (the CS4398 and) its LT1364 opamp.
Hi Andrea,
thank you very much for sharing your thoughts and experiences!
I have to admit, I had never thought about such a very inexpensive, small device like the Super Pro 707. But I agree, it has a decent shipset, nice opa's, and concerning the output caps, I am just waiting for a piece of gear in which my spare BG-N 4,7/50 might fit into!
Building a proper power supply wouldn't be a problem, since I have different high quality transformers, caps and stuff like that in my parts bin.
I just noticed that there is a new version of the 707 selling, which converts from USB directly into I2S for feeding the CS4398, which I consider way better than converting into SPDIF and then back to I2S for the DAC chip.
But, what do you think is the main difference between the Super Pro 707 and the Musiland SVDAC05, besides the better build in power supply (which I can build on my own for the 707) and the integrated headphone amp (which I don't need at all)?
There was a DAC shootout on TNT Audio recently, in which the reviewer claimed that the Super Pro is a bit more on the detailed, bright sight of the spectrum, and the KingRex for example being a bit more dark sounding, with more wight in the lower octaves. Would you agree with that?
USB DAC shoot-out [English] - SuperPro24/192/KingRex UD-01/Devildsound
Hmmm, quite a difficult choice...
Thanks!
Martin
thank you very much for sharing your thoughts and experiences!
I have to admit, I had never thought about such a very inexpensive, small device like the Super Pro 707. But I agree, it has a decent shipset, nice opa's, and concerning the output caps, I am just waiting for a piece of gear in which my spare BG-N 4,7/50 might fit into!
Building a proper power supply wouldn't be a problem, since I have different high quality transformers, caps and stuff like that in my parts bin.
I just noticed that there is a new version of the 707 selling, which converts from USB directly into I2S for feeding the CS4398, which I consider way better than converting into SPDIF and then back to I2S for the DAC chip.
But, what do you think is the main difference between the Super Pro 707 and the Musiland SVDAC05, besides the better build in power supply (which I can build on my own for the 707) and the integrated headphone amp (which I don't need at all)?
There was a DAC shootout on TNT Audio recently, in which the reviewer claimed that the Super Pro is a bit more on the detailed, bright sight of the spectrum, and the KingRex for example being a bit more dark sounding, with more wight in the lower octaves. Would you agree with that?
USB DAC shoot-out [English] - SuperPro24/192/KingRex UD-01/Devildsound
Hmmm, quite a difficult choice...
Thanks!
Martin
Hi Bill,
I now what you mean concerning op-amps, and it's what many people say.
In case op-amps wouldn't be the way to go, perhaps this kit would be a better choice, since it has a fully discrete j-fet output stage integrated:
DAC kit AD1865N-K NOS 1.0 NOS bei eBay.de: Amplifiers (endet 26.12.09 02:49:41 MEZ)
This is what Lukasz Fikus says about it:
ad1865
But unfortunately it has no USB input, and further more the SPDIF input seems to be designed poorly, regarding to the experiences of Lukasz.
Any thoughts?
Thanks!
Martin
I now what you mean concerning op-amps, and it's what many people say.
In case op-amps wouldn't be the way to go, perhaps this kit would be a better choice, since it has a fully discrete j-fet output stage integrated:
DAC kit AD1865N-K NOS 1.0 NOS bei eBay.de: Amplifiers (endet 26.12.09 02:49:41 MEZ)
This is what Lukasz Fikus says about it:
ad1865
But unfortunately it has no USB input, and further more the SPDIF input seems to be designed poorly, regarding to the experiences of Lukasz.
Any thoughts?
Thanks!
Martin
Hi Martin,
The opamps being the same, and the output caps being Wima film caps in both, the SVDAC05 and the last version (that with I2S) Super Pro sound exactly the same for my ears. This is with coaxial digital input, and with the Super Pro's stock power supply. So I kind of doubt the practical benefits of a "better" power supply with the digital and analog power lines separated from the transformer's secondary winding..
Alternatively, you can consider the NG98 by "HA INFO", which can be bought with the CS4398 or with the AD1852 at your choice.
Regarding the stock Super Pro, it may be slightly bright sounding due to the chosen opamp (LT1364), but it's got smooth and lush midrange, and musical... For a more solid and rounder sound, just change opamp to OPA1611/1612, or AD8599.
I was forgetting... I liked the full and lush sound, with very good tonality, that the LME49720HA (TO99 package) conveyed to my Super Pro. I finally went with the (slightly brighter) OPA1611 (just for that ineffable pride in using single opamps 🙄) but I could just as well have lived with the LME49720HA.
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I can give a big thumbs up to the Super Pro. Change out the analog section and it sounds great. Very simple to do. I also used bigger, better caps on the power section.
Hard to beat for the anywhere near the price.
Hard to beat for the anywhere near the price.
Yup...
I've added a few caps too... Rubycon ZL 470uF 25V in the main power line, a ZLH 100uF 16V in the DAC power supply, and a couple of Wima & couple of Evox film bypasses.
But the latest version comes with a Rubycon YXG 220uF 35V power cap, which is good and doesn't require that you change it. It's necessary to remove it to change the opamp, though...
And as I mentioned I definitely recommend changing the two output caps, with more audiophile-approved Wima MKS2 4.7uF like I did, for instance.
Regarding the opamps... nothing has beaten the OPA1611 for my ears... including LME49720HA (2nd best for me), OPA827, OPA211AID, LME49723...
I'd recommend trying also the LME49725 though (haven't come to try it myself) 🙂
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Allright, I did it. Just bought the latest version of the Super Pro 707. I will try some different OP-amps, but I'm also very excited about the sound of the stock unit!
And even if this one would not satisfy my needs, it would be a nice USBtoSPDIF converter, too 🙂
Thanks a lot for all your comments and advices!!
Kind Regards,
Martin
And even if this one would not satisfy my needs, it would be a nice USBtoSPDIF converter, too 🙂
Thanks a lot for all your comments and advices!!
Kind Regards,
Martin
Let us know how you like it!
Stock, it did not please me - but it was easy to modify.
Maybe you'll like it just fine.
Stock, it did not please me - but it was easy to modify.
Maybe you'll like it just fine.
IMO it's very enjoyable as it comes, too. Give it time to burn in though...especially for the capacitors in the signal path.
Hey, you know, what would diy audio be without tweaking ;-)
I know myself, I will tweak the 707. Thanks to Andrea's recommendations I already have a good idea of which OP-amps and caps to try!
And one more thing to mention:
Silvercans, thanks for starting this thread!!
Martin
I know myself, I will tweak the 707. Thanks to Andrea's recommendations I already have a good idea of which OP-amps and caps to try!
And one more thing to mention:
Silvercans, thanks for starting this thread!!
Martin
I have one of these too, with good transformers it is very nice indeed 🙂
Mine doesen't even have the upsampling option, but still very nice...
I tried to find a good picture of the new (!) Super Pro 707 without the case, but it seems that the opamps are mounted beneath a small heatsink. I would like to see how the original opamps are soldered to the pcb, and what package they are (DIP-8, SO-8 or TO99)?
And, what is the DC-voltage output of the stock power supply? Just asking out of curiosity...
I have a very reliable dealer for high quality elektronic parts here in Germany, and I now want to see what opamps are suitable for the Super Pro (without changing anything else of the circuit), what type of package they must have, and which ones of those my dealer has to offer.
But of course, I will let the stock unit have a burn-in period and a good listen, and then I will post my findings in this thread.
Martin
And, what is the DC-voltage output of the stock power supply? Just asking out of curiosity...
I have a very reliable dealer for high quality elektronic parts here in Germany, and I now want to see what opamps are suitable for the Super Pro (without changing anything else of the circuit), what type of package they must have, and which ones of those my dealer has to offer.
But of course, I will let the stock unit have a burn-in period and a good listen, and then I will post my findings in this thread.
Martin
What you've seen must be an old version with just one (heatsunk) LM317; the one you bought has two LM317, without heatsinks.
The opamp (LT1364) is SOIC and is soldered on the upper side of the PCB, close to the DC input jack. There are also holes on the board for a DIP opamp or socket though 🙂
What I did was first put a socket and try lots of opamps for some time...
Then remove the socket and solder a Browndog 20302 with OPA1611's on it directly to the board.
If you value my experience... the opamps I'd restrict your testing to would be: LME49723, LME49725, LME49720HA/LM4562HA, OPA1611, AD8599, LT1028CS8, OPA211ID, OPA132U/UA & OPA827. I have a clear idea of what are my own favorites by now.
The opamp (LT1364) is SOIC and is soldered on the upper side of the PCB, close to the DC input jack. There are also holes on the board for a DIP opamp or socket though 🙂
What I did was first put a socket and try lots of opamps for some time...
Then remove the socket and solder a Browndog 20302 with OPA1611's on it directly to the board.
If you value my experience... the opamps I'd restrict your testing to would be: LME49723, LME49725, LME49720HA/LM4562HA, OPA1611, AD8599, LT1028CS8, OPA211ID, OPA132U/UA & OPA827. I have a clear idea of what are my own favorites by now.
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Hi Andrea,
of course still waiting for the Super Pro 707. But I read the whole "best opamp"-thread (113 pages by now!) to get a better idea of the different opamps and their sonic qualities. As said before, I have a shop here in Germany (Schuro) who sells some opamps, and I would like to stick to this shop because of the quite expensive shipping costs of other shops around the world. So I put together a short list of available opamps which I could use for the Super Pro DAC:
LME49720NA (DIP) or LME49720MA (SO), duals
LME49710NA (DIP) or LME49710MA (SO), singles
LT1028CN8 (DIP), single
OPA134PA (DIP) or OPA134UA (SO), singles
OPA2134PA (DIP) or OPA2134UA (SO), duals
OPA2604AP (DIP) or OPA2604UA (SO), duals
OP275GP (DIP), dual
Adapters for one or two of the SO-chips are also available at this shop. But note that the LT1028 is only available as DIP, so I cannot use this one in the Super Pro.
This makes my list even shorter:
Singles:
2x LME49710MA (SO)
2x OPA134UA (SO)
Duals:
1x LME49720NA (DIP)
1x OPA2134PA (DIP)
1x OPA2604AP (DIP)
1x OP275GP (DIP)
Well, that's pretty much it. Since you know what sound signature I prefer (more on the dark, weighty side, organic...), which of these would you recommend me to try? I have to order some other parts from this shop as well, so I thought I could order some opamps for later...)
I googled around for shops to get some 1611/12, or AD8599, or LME49725 and so on, but that would always lead to quite high shippings costs, and some of these chips seem to be not available in shops at all (especially 1611/12)!
Thank you very much!
Martin
of course still waiting for the Super Pro 707. But I read the whole "best opamp"-thread (113 pages by now!) to get a better idea of the different opamps and their sonic qualities. As said before, I have a shop here in Germany (Schuro) who sells some opamps, and I would like to stick to this shop because of the quite expensive shipping costs of other shops around the world. So I put together a short list of available opamps which I could use for the Super Pro DAC:
LME49720NA (DIP) or LME49720MA (SO), duals
LME49710NA (DIP) or LME49710MA (SO), singles
LT1028CN8 (DIP), single
OPA134PA (DIP) or OPA134UA (SO), singles
OPA2134PA (DIP) or OPA2134UA (SO), duals
OPA2604AP (DIP) or OPA2604UA (SO), duals
OP275GP (DIP), dual
Adapters for one or two of the SO-chips are also available at this shop. But note that the LT1028 is only available as DIP, so I cannot use this one in the Super Pro.
This makes my list even shorter:
Singles:
2x LME49710MA (SO)
2x OPA134UA (SO)
Duals:
1x LME49720NA (DIP)
1x OPA2134PA (DIP)
1x OPA2604AP (DIP)
1x OP275GP (DIP)
Well, that's pretty much it. Since you know what sound signature I prefer (more on the dark, weighty side, organic...), which of these would you recommend me to try? I have to order some other parts from this shop as well, so I thought I could order some opamps for later...)
I googled around for shops to get some 1611/12, or AD8599, or LME49725 and so on, but that would always lead to quite high shippings costs, and some of these chips seem to be not available in shops at all (especially 1611/12)!
Thank you very much!
Martin
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Hi Martin,
Well no surprise that they don't have OPA1611/1612, AD8599... even RS Components doesn't have them 🙁
Among those you listed, IMO, for the kind of sound you (and I) prefer, the most straightforward choice would be the OPA134UA.
BTW the supply voltage (with supplied AC adapter) is 12V. You can go up to 24V... but be warned that with 24V the two regulators get pretty hot...
A nice thing about the OPA1611 (and OPA211) is that it's rail-to-rail, so comparatively it should perform better than the typical audio opamp at lowish voltages... Surely, at least, knowing this puts my mind at ease 🙂
The OPA134 will perform well at 12V, since the OPA132UA (a FET opamp I really like) does too.
Alternatively, it would be nice to try the OP275GP (possibly with a little more supply voltage), as the numbers speak for it 🙂
Lastly, you could try the LME49710MA... but be warned that this one, though transparent sounding, does not have the most full bodied sound.
Well no surprise that they don't have OPA1611/1612, AD8599... even RS Components doesn't have them 🙁
Among those you listed, IMO, for the kind of sound you (and I) prefer, the most straightforward choice would be the OPA134UA.
BTW the supply voltage (with supplied AC adapter) is 12V. You can go up to 24V... but be warned that with 24V the two regulators get pretty hot...
A nice thing about the OPA1611 (and OPA211) is that it's rail-to-rail, so comparatively it should perform better than the typical audio opamp at lowish voltages... Surely, at least, knowing this puts my mind at ease 🙂
The OPA134 will perform well at 12V, since the OPA132UA (a FET opamp I really like) does too.
Alternatively, it would be nice to try the OP275GP (possibly with a little more supply voltage), as the numbers speak for it 🙂
Lastly, you could try the LME49710MA... but be warned that this one, though transparent sounding, does not have the most full bodied sound.
Hi Andrea, hi all, and a happy new year!
Well, about a week ago my new Super Pro USB DAC 707 arrived. After setup and a quick check if everything is working properly, I let the DAC play for couple days non stop. Then I gave it a first shot.
And well, I'm surprised!
BOY am I surprised!!
I listened to serveral entry-level DACs before, some with TDA1543 and 1545 in nos-mode, and other items like the Echo Indigo pcmcia soundcard. But this small DAC-in-the-box is the very first one which delivers a presentation of music that is able to fit my taste!
I really have to thank you very much Andrea for your recommendation!! I like this 707 DAC a LOT!
It is in stock configuration until now, and it sounds convincing even as it is. It has a well balanced overall performance, it sounds smooth and pleasant but yet detailed with good resolution of all frequencies. The music certainly has this amount of "weight" of which I was looking for, and a good portion of refinement. In short, it sounds WAY better than the low selling price would suggest. But the most important aspect about the sound to me is that everything this DAC delivers comes in the "right dose", the right amount, if you understand what I mean. There is plenty of bass when requested, but not too much of it, very nice detail resolution, but no artificial and over-analytic sound.
So, it's certainly not perfect in all aspects, but it does some very important things right, and I concider this a great potential for some tweaks to make the heart of the unit, the CS4398, really shine!
I already ordered some opamps to try, and I also have some nice film caps (and of course some Black Gates) in my parts bin. Further more this little thing is begging for a decent linear power supply.
But first I want to get really used to the sound of the stock unit, so that I'm able to evaluate every difference of evey single modification.
I will report my findings, so stay tuned ;-)
Kind Regards!
Martin
Well, about a week ago my new Super Pro USB DAC 707 arrived. After setup and a quick check if everything is working properly, I let the DAC play for couple days non stop. Then I gave it a first shot.
And well, I'm surprised!
BOY am I surprised!!
I listened to serveral entry-level DACs before, some with TDA1543 and 1545 in nos-mode, and other items like the Echo Indigo pcmcia soundcard. But this small DAC-in-the-box is the very first one which delivers a presentation of music that is able to fit my taste!
I really have to thank you very much Andrea for your recommendation!! I like this 707 DAC a LOT!
It is in stock configuration until now, and it sounds convincing even as it is. It has a well balanced overall performance, it sounds smooth and pleasant but yet detailed with good resolution of all frequencies. The music certainly has this amount of "weight" of which I was looking for, and a good portion of refinement. In short, it sounds WAY better than the low selling price would suggest. But the most important aspect about the sound to me is that everything this DAC delivers comes in the "right dose", the right amount, if you understand what I mean. There is plenty of bass when requested, but not too much of it, very nice detail resolution, but no artificial and over-analytic sound.
So, it's certainly not perfect in all aspects, but it does some very important things right, and I concider this a great potential for some tweaks to make the heart of the unit, the CS4398, really shine!
I already ordered some opamps to try, and I also have some nice film caps (and of course some Black Gates) in my parts bin. Further more this little thing is begging for a decent linear power supply.
But first I want to get really used to the sound of the stock unit, so that I'm able to evaluate every difference of evey single modification.
I will report my findings, so stay tuned ;-)
Kind Regards!
Martin
Hi Martin,
Glad to hear that! You've provided me with more proof that this DAC is a value for money champion as I was inclined to think.
I knew it would encounter your liking even stock! Since the LT1364 is a musical, detailed but non-analytical opamp; and the CS4398 is untouchable when it comes to sound quality (specifications aside, which anyway are among the best around).
BTW, beware... changing the LT1364 with a typical audio opamp may not bring any improvement, rather the opposite. It takes the most up-to-date chips to improve on it... like (as mentioned) OPA1612, LME49720HA, AD8599..
Regarding the Black Gates: well here the important thing (given the size of the DAC) is that they should be long life at high temperature, which I'm not sure the Black Gates are. Are they 105°C ? I think they aren't. I personally use Rubycon's (low ESR, long life) ZL, YXH and ZLH with great satisfaction.
Enjoy! And keep us updated 😎
Glad to hear that! You've provided me with more proof that this DAC is a value for money champion as I was inclined to think.
I knew it would encounter your liking even stock! Since the LT1364 is a musical, detailed but non-analytical opamp; and the CS4398 is untouchable when it comes to sound quality (specifications aside, which anyway are among the best around).
BTW, beware... changing the LT1364 with a typical audio opamp may not bring any improvement, rather the opposite. It takes the most up-to-date chips to improve on it... like (as mentioned) OPA1612, LME49720HA, AD8599..
Regarding the Black Gates: well here the important thing (given the size of the DAC) is that they should be long life at high temperature, which I'm not sure the Black Gates are. Are they 105°C ? I think they aren't. I personally use Rubycon's (low ESR, long life) ZL, YXH and ZLH with great satisfaction.
Enjoy! And keep us updated 😎
Quote:
"BTW, beware... changing the
LT1364 with a typical audio opamp may not bring any improvement, rather the opposite. It takes the most up-to-date chips to improve on it... like (as mentioned) OPA1612, LME49720HA, AD8599.."
Well, that makes me wonder if it would be such a good idea to desolder the small smd LT1364? You see, I already bought a couple of opamps and a DIP socket. I bought LME49720NA, OP275GP, OPA2134PA and OPA2604AP. But perhaps none of these opamps would make the sound better or different the way a decent power supply and a nice pair of coupling caps could? Perhaps in the end the CS4398 and the LT1364 are a nice match?
But, since I never did opamp-rolling before, I cannot tell if the difference between those IC's I have is either a) subtle, b) remarkable or c) huuuuge...
But I will start with the coupling caps and the ps and then I'll report my findings.
Regarding the Black Gates: Heat is not an issue in my case, because I do not intend to use the small enclosure of the DAC. I will use the pcb, a self-made power supply and eventually a volume pot, and then all this will fit nicely into a small steel enclosure which fits to my amp's enclosure, but only half the height. So any cap I use will have plenty of space and air around!
"BTW, beware... changing the
LT1364 with a typical audio opamp may not bring any improvement, rather the opposite. It takes the most up-to-date chips to improve on it... like (as mentioned) OPA1612, LME49720HA, AD8599.."
Well, that makes me wonder if it would be such a good idea to desolder the small smd LT1364? You see, I already bought a couple of opamps and a DIP socket. I bought LME49720NA, OP275GP, OPA2134PA and OPA2604AP. But perhaps none of these opamps would make the sound better or different the way a decent power supply and a nice pair of coupling caps could? Perhaps in the end the CS4398 and the LT1364 are a nice match?
But, since I never did opamp-rolling before, I cannot tell if the difference between those IC's I have is either a) subtle, b) remarkable or c) huuuuge...
But I will start with the coupling caps and the ps and then I'll report my findings.
Regarding the Black Gates: Heat is not an issue in my case, because I do not intend to use the small enclosure of the DAC. I will use the pcb, a self-made power supply and eventually a volume pot, and then all this will fit nicely into a small steel enclosure which fits to my amp's enclosure, but only half the height. So any cap I use will have plenty of space and air around!
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