Thanks for your feedback, helps to put perspective!
I fully plan to use room EQ (this is one criteria for AVR selection). Initially, I was thinking of buying the speakers, but in the process of designing the room, I rat-holed into going all-in in the DIY route and now want to build the speakers 🙂 .
For the configuration, I was planning to get to 7.2.4, and if 2 subs is not enough to fight room modes, might add two others (thinking of subs configurations documents in Todd Welti's study). Here is a drawing (x/y axis are in meters, blue rectangle is couch, black dots are human heads 🙂 , red boxes are speakers, the cones are 40 degrees angles) of the 5.2m x 3.7m x 2m room:
Ideally, I would love to have all speakers the same (or at least with close enough tonality), as from my past Infinity/Klipsch mixed configuration, the difference in tonality was big enough to be noticed when sounds were moving from front to back.
If I was to buy now, it would be a Denon X3800h. However by the time I build the dedicated room in the basement, this might change 🙂 .
Currently I only use a soundbar in the living room (I moved from the US recently). Before that I used to have a Yamaha receiver (don't remember exact model) and 5.1 setup (mix of Klipsch bookshelves for surround, Infinity Primus P363 for LR, and Infinity Primus PC351 as center channel).
I am planning on building a dedicated Media room in my basement. Mostly it will be 80% watching movies and 20% gaming.
I fully plan to use room EQ (this is one criteria for AVR selection). Initially, I was thinking of buying the speakers, but in the process of designing the room, I rat-holed into going all-in in the DIY route and now want to build the speakers 🙂 .
For the configuration, I was planning to get to 7.2.4, and if 2 subs is not enough to fight room modes, might add two others (thinking of subs configurations documents in Todd Welti's study). Here is a drawing (x/y axis are in meters, blue rectangle is couch, black dots are human heads 🙂 , red boxes are speakers, the cones are 40 degrees angles) of the 5.2m x 3.7m x 2m room:
Ideally, I would love to have all speakers the same (or at least with close enough tonality), as from my past Infinity/Klipsch mixed configuration, the difference in tonality was big enough to be noticed when sounds were moving from front to back.
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I’d certainly agree about retaining as consistent a timbral balance across as many channels as possible, as well as the multiple sub approach - of course there’s only one way to answer the question as to how many are too much for any given room.
I did review the earlier floor plan drawing, and this new one still looks to be a rather smallish room - approx 1/3 less than the area of my own - in which multiple channels of fullrange drivers such as any of the Mark Audio series could easily suffice for many listeners. I wouldn’t however get too exercised over attempting to attain “ideally” flat, smooth FR via PEQ.
The trickiest challenge I think you’d encounter would be the overhead channels; with a room height of only 2meters, unless the ceiling can be opened up to allow for angled boxes / mounting think they’d be well off axis. Dave did produce a series of such enclosure designs some year ago that could probably be revisited for new driver specs.
http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/P10free/MT-HT-Appendix-191209.pdf
As I’m no longer in a position to fabricate enclosures, this was the reason I elected for a cheapie ceiling mount coax design - one with angled 6”woofer and tilting tweeter mount. (not a Klipsch).
As for the receiver, good choice - if not overkill for power in such a small room, but IINM, the DIRAC is not included? Of course it does offer 4 independent sub outs, so that should simply fine tuning of one of the more problematic areas- I think you’d want to use REW for confirmation. For Windows users there’s an excellent program called MSO, which the miniDSP community speaks very highly of, but I’d imagine here’s a learning curve.
FWIW, I’ve been extremely happy with my current Onkyo RZ740 and the previous NR818, and while both lacked elaborate room EQ/correction beyond AccuEQ / Audyssey XT32 respectively, the very well respected RZ50 does include DIRAC Live and unless you need to surf the bleeding edge of bright and shiny / future proof (ha, there’s a fools errand for ya), I think there may still be some available at almost bargain prices.
An absolute embarrassment of riches from which to choose - first world problems, right?
I did review the earlier floor plan drawing, and this new one still looks to be a rather smallish room - approx 1/3 less than the area of my own - in which multiple channels of fullrange drivers such as any of the Mark Audio series could easily suffice for many listeners. I wouldn’t however get too exercised over attempting to attain “ideally” flat, smooth FR via PEQ.
The trickiest challenge I think you’d encounter would be the overhead channels; with a room height of only 2meters, unless the ceiling can be opened up to allow for angled boxes / mounting think they’d be well off axis. Dave did produce a series of such enclosure designs some year ago that could probably be revisited for new driver specs.
http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/P10free/MT-HT-Appendix-191209.pdf
As I’m no longer in a position to fabricate enclosures, this was the reason I elected for a cheapie ceiling mount coax design - one with angled 6”woofer and tilting tweeter mount. (not a Klipsch).
As for the receiver, good choice - if not overkill for power in such a small room, but IINM, the DIRAC is not included? Of course it does offer 4 independent sub outs, so that should simply fine tuning of one of the more problematic areas- I think you’d want to use REW for confirmation. For Windows users there’s an excellent program called MSO, which the miniDSP community speaks very highly of, but I’d imagine here’s a learning curve.
FWIW, I’ve been extremely happy with my current Onkyo RZ740 and the previous NR818, and while both lacked elaborate room EQ/correction beyond AccuEQ / Audyssey XT32 respectively, the very well respected RZ50 does include DIRAC Live and unless you need to surf the bleeding edge of bright and shiny / future proof (ha, there’s a fools errand for ya), I think there may still be some available at almost bargain prices.
An absolute embarrassment of riches from which to choose - first world problems, right?
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Definitely agree these are my biggest concern too. There is no way to open up unfortunately (the ceiling is concrete, and there is heated floor above 🙂).
I am planning to build boxes with an angled baffle to minimize angles. Should be fine for middle seats, but with the current plan the closest side seats will be about 50-60 degrees off-axis so above 6-7KHz, I think there would be a huge dB loss. I am more and more thinking of doing 2 shorter rows to avoid seats close to the sides.
That was my starting point/inspiration.
Yes, Dirac is a paid upgrade (which I don't intend to buy, at least not short term 🙂 ) but it has Audyssey XT32 which I hope should be enough. It might be overkill (I believe it is rated at 70W per channel, all channel driven), but this is the cheapest with decent EQ and 11 channels (currently 1200 euros).
The Onkyo RZ-50 is another good option with Dirac, but slightly more expensive (1400 euros) plus a few hundreds if you factor that it has a single sub out, and would require extra DSP for multi subs.
Of course if previous years models are available for cheaper, I might go for it if the discount is interesting, but recent models have hdmi 2.1 which is useful for gaming.
Probably the last meaningful comment I could make on this subject relates to the subject of HDMI - most specifically the surprisingly hot button topic for some folks of 2.1 - and I guess this is where my 72 yrs is showing. I can see this being a major issue for those hard core gamers needing multiples of highest speed/bandwidth for their several consoles and/or gaming computers that can easily cost more than the receiver, as well as the latest 4K BluRay player; as my consumption is now streaming only, those factors don’t apply to my use case. Then there are those folks pining for the days of yore when the TV display screen was essentially a dumb monitor, but I can get by with using the new LG OLED as hub for my cable provider’s Arris player box and Apple TV - both of which do 4K quite nicely, and the Apple a particularly nice job with HDR & Dolby Vision; there’s a distinctly noticeable improvement with the latter on the same streaming apps such as Netflix, Prime and Disney+ ( free 24 months thanks to grandfathered Shaw contract, but something for which I doubt I’d ever pay).
No doubt, should demand be sufficient, Dave could revisit some of those CHR70 series enclosures for the most recent generation of Mark Audio drivers.
No doubt, should demand be sufficient, Dave could revisit some of those CHR70 series enclosures for the most recent generation of Mark Audio drivers.
Probably only if it's accompanied by some mechanical mode that sets the whole cone into oscillation. But again, it may be visible on a FR plot and inaudible, or invisible and play a big role (harmonic distortion also comes to mind).
What's the plan with woofers/subs? IIRC nowadays you can route the LFE channels/s to play through the mains. So, for ex. the front L, C, and R could be 2-way with a large-ish woofer and smallish wide-range as mid-tweeter. Whether or not that's a good idea is another question.
On another note I found out the approval of younger family members is often higher with the bass cut-off above 100Hz, and the WAF wants another 3-4" bluetooth XD.
My understanding is that the most efficient way to deal with room modes below 100Hz is with multiple subs, placed and aligned properly (see the Harman study). Given that I have room to put the subs, I would prefer to put them separate so that I can experiment with different placement.
The plan is to start with 2 sealed subs out of the SB Audience Bianco 15OB350, which simulate well in a 150 Liters box (and should provide enough SPL above 20Hz with room gain).
For the box shape, I will try the same philosophy of tall/wide and shallow box. Depending on experiments with placement and how room modes are tamed, I might add extra subs (just for room modes consideration, not SPL).
Good to know, will keep that in mind thanks.
Great idea 🙂 . All the drivers are sold by pair and the room will need an odd number of them, was wondering what to do with the extra one...
Wow, things are getting serious!
There's been discussion in other threads about the pros and cons of a high output impedance. In short, a high impedance in series can help to linearise the top end of various woofers, where the inductance curve starts to climb.
A simple and very effective trick in the toolbox is to use an air-cored inductor (with no other passive crossover components) as a basic low-pass filter on the woofer. The actual slope can then be amended with active or DSP based filters.
One interesting thing is if you start thinking about it early, you can look at modest coils with high DCR, and simply adjust the output resistance in the box simulator.
Babinsky - I thought I could get away without further contributions here, but after futzing around today getting miniDSP to play nice in its role of sub woofer management, I can attest that unless budget is a major concern, the simplicity of independent sub outs and full PEQ functionality for all channels within the processor/receiver would be a huge bonus - a transparent real time overlay GUI for that function is worth its weight in gold.
While a decent measurement microphone and a miniDSP 2x4HD can be had for far less than many insist on spending for snake oil cables, and REW is free, there is a bit of a learning curve. I no longer have a laptop, so while a 10+yr old Mini running Catalina worked fine, the whole process was not super easy, but definitely an inconvenience😉
Anyways, best of luck, and if you’re still interested in compact enclosures for Mark Audio drivers for this project maybe reach out to Dave at Planet10 if he’s not already seen this thread.
While a decent measurement microphone and a miniDSP 2x4HD can be had for far less than many insist on spending for snake oil cables, and REW is free, there is a bit of a learning curve. I no longer have a laptop, so while a 10+yr old Mini running Catalina worked fine, the whole process was not super easy, but definitely an inconvenience😉
Anyways, best of luck, and if you’re still interested in compact enclosures for Mark Audio drivers for this project maybe reach out to Dave at Planet10 if he’s not already seen this thread.
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Thanks a lot for the feedback guys!
Dave replied earlier that CHR-70/90 should be fine based on my goals.
I will order a pair of CHR-70 and build test enclosures for a start (based on Dave plans). I will keep you posted as I make the time to build them.
Edit: I have spare particle boards at home, is it fine for test builds or would it impact sound too much?
Dave replied earlier that CHR-70/90 should be fine based on my goals.
I will order a pair of CHR-70 and build test enclosures for a start (based on Dave plans). I will keep you posted as I make the time to build them.
Edit: I have spare particle boards at home, is it fine for test builds or would it impact sound too much?
That’s a whole ‘nother rabbit hole for which there’s probably no need for you to currently explore😵
It’d probably give you a ballpark idea if the size and shape of enclosures would fit your use case.
It should be noted that I’m a longtime big fan of BB plywood.
I’d also put the CHP90 on my short list - as meaningful as any manufacturer’s published graphs might be -the tamer top octave or so looks to be interesting.
It’d probably give you a ballpark idea if the size and shape of enclosures would fit your use case.
It should be noted that I’m a longtime big fan of BB plywood.
I’d also put the CHP90 on my short list - as meaningful as any manufacturer’s published graphs might be -the tamer top octave or so looks to be interesting.
Indeed, a ballpark idea was all I was looking for 🙂
Paper cone is tempting, I would expect it to reflect less light in a dark room, especially behind an acoustically transparent screen.
Do you have experience with CHP-90/CHP-70? If so, how does it behave off-axis?
I was actually looking at multiple driver in these sizes (from Fostex, Dayton, Markaudio). But there is very little data available on off axis response, which seems very important for my application. At least, there is some encouraging data available for CHR-120, CHR-90 and CHR-70, this is why I settled for those.
Paper cone is tempting, I would expect it to reflect less light in a dark room, especially behind an acoustically transparent screen.
Do you have experience with CHP-90/CHP-70? If so, how does it behave off-axis?
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Overthinking 🙂 Cone diameter will likely be the main determining factor. 5" will almost certainly have a mellower in-room tone than 4", as the higher frequencies will undergo more beaming.
I was wondering what the deal is with break-up modes, and it occurred to me that it could be a gong-like effect (or with metal baking trays for that matter) where, upon straining the material, it 'pops' from one stable position to another. This would go some way to explaining multiple anecdotes where a speaker's tone appears to change over time. I noticed the CHP-90 has a fine mesh embossed on the rear side of the cone, which I assume would help it flex like with the concentric rings that classic drivers sometimes have.
In any case, it also hints as to why the more delicate drivers seem to distort badly before reaching a satisfactory gain for some people.
I recently discovered the Fostex FE126NV, whose 3g cone is 1/3 lighter(!) than the Alpair 10p or CHR-90. But I'm also holding out for a "low power" Alpair 9 with the mono suspension but with a few grams shaved off the mass.
Not much experience with any of the recent paper cone MA drivers. My most recent builds are well over 5 yrs old, and except for the subs, all in my HT system are metal cones. I’ve not had opportunity to hear the latest crop of either of the brands discussed.
The mica doped paper cones sound interesting; I can recall sensing a refinement over the previous series when Fostex introduced their FF-WK models; the 105 being probably the Goldilocks model in that group for me.
Finally got some time to build something.
The cabinets are made of 18mm acacia boards (had some leftovers from a shelving project), with one long vertical brace, and filled with 45mm denim insulation. I did not chamfer/round off the baffle yet.
I allowed ~50 hours of break-in time in a separate room (without listening to avoid bias). For the amp, I borrowed an older AVR for testing (but have no mic for calibration :/).
I listened to some jazz music (cowboy bebop ost for those who know). It sounded better than I thought it would: could really pick up separate instruments much better than with my soundbar. The spatial cues are also quite good.
Next I played some scenes from a couple of movies (Encanto and Dunkirk). Of course there is no bass (to be expected), but spatial cues are really nice. Voices are also very clear. Biggest downside is highs during movies can be ear piercing at times, so much that I had to lower the volume.
At any rate, thanks for the recommendations guys, it really helped me take that first step!
The cabinets are made of 18mm acacia boards (had some leftovers from a shelving project), with one long vertical brace, and filled with 45mm denim insulation. I did not chamfer/round off the baffle yet.
I allowed ~50 hours of break-in time in a separate room (without listening to avoid bias). For the amp, I borrowed an older AVR for testing (but have no mic for calibration :/).
I listened to some jazz music (cowboy bebop ost for those who know). It sounded better than I thought it would: could really pick up separate instruments much better than with my soundbar. The spatial cues are also quite good.
Next I played some scenes from a couple of movies (Encanto and Dunkirk). Of course there is no bass (to be expected), but spatial cues are really nice. Voices are also very clear. Biggest downside is highs during movies can be ear piercing at times, so much that I had to lower the volume.
At any rate, thanks for the recommendations guys, it really helped me take that first step!
I did look at some designs. Here are a few reasons why I went fullrange:
- simpler to build. For a first project, it has to matter 😀
- a lot of 2-way designs I looked at were either low-volume enclosures targeting nearfield (low spl), or large high spl enclosures.
- in general, it seemed more expensive to go the 2-way route. e.g. the C-note components are at around 150 euros per speaker, when a pair of CHR-70 are 70 euros.
Great to see them completed. How long do you think you’ll be living with this new rig before you develop 2 foot-itis, and do you have an upgrade path in mind?
Haha I have absolutely no desire to go for big speakers (at least not yet 😀).
I actually like the idea of small speakers that blend with the decor, and use subs for the low end.
Speaker-wise, next step is to build the sub. I don't know if I will build the room first though, since the more speakers I build, the more space I will need to put them to use 🙂
No BSC circuit since I will EQ them using an AVR.