And in Salsa disco are 4 simple reflex sub's ( FBT brand ) that shake the dance floor ... they are not put in stack's .. they are putted in corner's .. and under a table .
Mabye if i build 4 good sub's and chage the driver on the scoop i can make a good system ...
Scoop at base , 2 x bass on top and the HF Cab , the same on the other channel .
What do you think ?
Mabye if i build 4 good sub's and chage the driver on the scoop i can make a good system ...
Scoop at base , 2 x bass on top and the HF Cab , the same on the other channel .
What do you think ?
Oberton
If you are in Bulgaria, you should definitely look into Oberton speakers. Look at www.egbeck.de for the California Horn (click on Akustik on the top of the main page), which according to some posts on paforum.de have been known to work very well with one of the Oberton 15s (unfortunately the search function of the site doesn’t work at the moment, but it is supposedly very similar to the EV15L which was originally used in the BEC1). A stack of 4 of these is known to be very impressive and the horn is a little easier to build than the LAB because it doesn’t have compound angle mitres. Otherwise a double 18 with the 700XB (12mm Xmax) would be quite impressive as well.
If you are in Bulgaria, you should definitely look into Oberton speakers. Look at www.egbeck.de for the California Horn (click on Akustik on the top of the main page), which according to some posts on paforum.de have been known to work very well with one of the Oberton 15s (unfortunately the search function of the site doesn’t work at the moment, but it is supposedly very similar to the EV15L which was originally used in the BEC1). A stack of 4 of these is known to be very impressive and the horn is a little easier to build than the LAB because it doesn’t have compound angle mitres. Otherwise a double 18 with the 700XB (12mm Xmax) would be quite impressive as well.
darkm4n said:
I currently use the WPU 1507 QCF in the Altec A7 cabinet. The 1507 is almost the same as the 1505 but has the near indestructible cone and is quite a stable sounding unit at higher volumes. Along with a 511 horn, that is the full range part of the system. For added bass I have a dual 15 set up in A4 cabinets.
I am running the full range with a Hafler 500 and each of the big bass units is run from a Carver cube. That's only a total of 1500 watts but it would certainly fill a dance club OK just because of the efficiency (or is it sensitivity?) of the system.
Now I don't use these for doing PA work, that's not my business, I just use it for parties. My friends don't care about the lack of deep deep bass, as long as they can hear it from the bocce pitch.
I've not heard too much from others about the Selenium woofers but I know the tweets are popular. I certainly believe I got good value for my money.
If others have used the Selenium woofers in other set ups, I'd like to hear about their experiences because up till now I feel kinda lonely. Nobody to compare notes with if you know what I mean.
Bye for now,
Cal
Imix500-
I wouldn't say that low power destroys speaker at all- low power is healthier for a speaker than more power than what the speaker is rated at. The major problem introduced is distortion . A 100W amp powering a 200W speaker is completely fine for the speaker, unless the amp is driven into clipping...THAT is where problems arise.
On the same note, a 300W amp is alot harder on the said speaker than the 100W amp, given that the user has common sense and does not clip the 100W amp.
Heat and/or mechanical failure kill speakers...
a clipping amp causes DC-like conditions, therefore builds up heat in the speaker...
Overpowering builds up heat in speakers, and can also cause mechanical failure via over-excursion...
Pick your poison.😀
I wouldn't say that low power destroys speaker at all- low power is healthier for a speaker than more power than what the speaker is rated at. The major problem introduced is distortion . A 100W amp powering a 200W speaker is completely fine for the speaker, unless the amp is driven into clipping...THAT is where problems arise.
On the same note, a 300W amp is alot harder on the said speaker than the 100W amp, given that the user has common sense and does not clip the 100W amp.
Heat and/or mechanical failure kill speakers...
a clipping amp causes DC-like conditions, therefore builds up heat in the speaker...
Overpowering builds up heat in speakers, and can also cause mechanical failure via over-excursion...
Pick your poison.😀
Asauer, the idea that underpowering is harder on speakers is true, under the conditions that the user is trying to get full output from less than adequate power, which is very common. You can ask too much of an amp and gain a few more dB from doing it, but yes, you do get distortion, which is what destroys voice coils. The output power of an amp obviously limits the output of a given speaker, given that the speaker can handle the maximum output of the amp. If the speaker has a sensitivity of 100dB 1W/M, tripling the output power of the amp will give you 9 dB of sound pressure, obviously. It is ALWAYS a good idea to at least match amp ratings to speaker ratings- but more often a larger amp is used in order to easily handle transients. These transients can easily exceed maximum power ratings, but occur too fast to affect the temperature of the voice coil. Also if the speaker will be run at near full output it is very common to use a slightly larger amp to gain a reserve of thermodynamic energy- cooler running amps last longer. And when your paying $3500 for an MA5000, it makes a difference. All this is assuming the user knows how to responsibly run a system and has a good understanding of what it can and CANNOT do. Ignorance is far more dangerous than power.
-Ricky
-Ricky
Imix,
Methinks I agree. That's why my 500 watt woofers suggest an amp of 1000 wpc. Full use of the driver's ability, no clipping.
Happy Cranking.
asauer,
You are correct in your thinking but Imix is taking the thought a little further.
Happy Cranking also.
Cal
Methinks I agree. That's why my 500 watt woofers suggest an amp of 1000 wpc. Full use of the driver's ability, no clipping.
Happy Cranking.
asauer,
You are correct in your thinking but Imix is taking the thought a little further.
Happy Cranking also.
Cal
Ahh, I see what you're getting at.😉
When I read your first post I thought you were one of those people that says small-wattage amps ALONE can kill speakers- not distortion, that just lower power than what the speaker is rated for...believe it or not I have ran into those people. Doesn't make sense...seeing as you can turn the volume down on your TV and your speakers don't blow up since "you're running less power than the speakers are rated for."
But yes, I agree, having a bigger amp than needed is always a + if you can afford it, and dont, in turn, crank the gain up on the amp and really overpower the speaker.😉
When I read your first post I thought you were one of those people that says small-wattage amps ALONE can kill speakers- not distortion, that just lower power than what the speaker is rated for...believe it or not I have ran into those people. Doesn't make sense...seeing as you can turn the volume down on your TV and your speakers don't blow up since "you're running less power than the speakers are rated for."
But yes, I agree, having a bigger amp than needed is always a + if you can afford it, and dont, in turn, crank the gain up on the amp and really overpower the speaker.😉
Asauer, Amen to that!
Heh, if the idea that lower wattage amps could toast speakers in that way was true, the entire tube audio world would implode!
Heh, if the idea that lower wattage amps could toast speakers in that way was true, the entire tube audio world would implode!reply
to Darkm4n build scoops u wish to move around only out of 18mm plywood [baltic birch 13 ply 18 mm] plywood being one of the best.Normal 18mm ply is fine 2 if heavily braced.
If it never leaves the house use 18mm MDF.
For the drivers the Eminence Kappa Pro 15 LF 600w rms is good in scoops,because my m8 who does large discos uses them in his 15 inch scoops.
The non-pro version Eminence Kappa 15 LF 500w rms might also work in scoops,but not sure.
To power them use something like a QSC RMX2450 500w rms into 8 ohm per chan.Or the Peavey S1000 amp for £350 if u can't afford the QSC for £500 quid.
The speakers u are using in the scoops look like very cheap car subwoofers,which will sound crap and probably burn out too.
The cheapest driver you could put in scoops without it sounding bad would be the Eminence Delta 15 400w rms or P. Audio SM15
to Darkm4n build scoops u wish to move around only out of 18mm plywood [baltic birch 13 ply 18 mm] plywood being one of the best.Normal 18mm ply is fine 2 if heavily braced.
If it never leaves the house use 18mm MDF.
For the drivers the Eminence Kappa Pro 15 LF 600w rms is good in scoops,because my m8 who does large discos uses them in his 15 inch scoops.
The non-pro version Eminence Kappa 15 LF 500w rms might also work in scoops,but not sure.
To power them use something like a QSC RMX2450 500w rms into 8 ohm per chan.Or the Peavey S1000 amp for £350 if u can't afford the QSC for £500 quid.
The speakers u are using in the scoops look like very cheap car subwoofers,which will sound crap and probably burn out too.
The cheapest driver you could put in scoops without it sounding bad would be the Eminence Delta 15 400w rms or P. Audio SM15
First I think it would be a good idea to distinguish between front loaded horns and back loaded horns
Back loaded horns [scoop] are much like a bass-reflex box, but the horn resonates at a family of frequencies, not just at a single tuning frequency. The size of the rear chamber determines how low the horn starts to work. At the range of frequencies where the horn resonates, the driver is thightly loaded and little cone movement is produced but below this range [when the horn no longer loads the driver], the system operates almost in free air like a bass-reflex box operated below its Fb. The rear chamber isolates the driver from the horn at midrange so the driver operates as a direct radiator on these frequencies
Front loaded horns [ej: LAB12] are much like 4th order bandpass boxes, but the horn also resonates at a family of frequencies. The front chamber also isolates the driver from the horn at midrange frequencies. The big difference is that the system behaves like a closed box so it has controlled cone excursion and still some efficiency when operated below the lowest resonance of the horn
If you want a system capable of radiating both bass and sub-bass frequencies with some eficiency you need a front loaded horn or a rear loaded horn big enough to resonate down to 30Hz [ie: of the size of the LAB12 - Not practical]
If you can live without the midrange from the scoops, you can just place a closed box of the right size in front of the driver, or even better, you could place a reflex box tuned lower enough to not disturb the horn [ie : below the lowest horn resonance]. This modification will boost sub-bass performance substantially
Also, horns are usually designed to be used in groups of 4 to 6 units because this allows a great size reduction. When you use such undersized horns in groups of less than 4 most efficiency below 70Hz IS LOST. Your scoops look like they were designed to be used in groups of 4 [or 2 placed back to back to a wall, or 1 placed in a corner]
So don't try to get efficiency outdoors or in big rooms with only one scoop in each side. It isn't a matter of power. When you put 4 scoops together they have improved power handling, dramatically reduced cone displacement and improved efficiency. You will outperform a single scoop feed with 1000W just with 4 scoops toghether feed with 4x60W, specially at low frequencies.
As a cheap option, you may try to build another 2 scoops and place all 4 toghether [mono bass] to improve efficiency outdoors
Finally, take into account that particle-board hardly has the rigidness needed to make a horn of such a size and this reduces efficiency and causes coloration [try placing your hand at the walls of the horn, I doubt they are quiet when playing loud]. I recommend something like 18mm or 22mm 13-layer ply-wood
EDIT :
I forgot to mention that the benefits of placing some [intentionally] undersized horns toghether are because groups of horns mutually load themselves and resonate down to a lower frequency [ie : a single horn may resonate down to 50Hz but the same horn in groups of 4 may resonate down to 36Hz and in groups of 6 or 8 may even resonate down to 28Hz depending on design]. Groups of [undersized] horns also tend to have almost flat LF response while a single [undersized] horn has marked peaks and dips
Back loaded horns [scoop] are much like a bass-reflex box, but the horn resonates at a family of frequencies, not just at a single tuning frequency. The size of the rear chamber determines how low the horn starts to work. At the range of frequencies where the horn resonates, the driver is thightly loaded and little cone movement is produced but below this range [when the horn no longer loads the driver], the system operates almost in free air like a bass-reflex box operated below its Fb. The rear chamber isolates the driver from the horn at midrange so the driver operates as a direct radiator on these frequencies
Front loaded horns [ej: LAB12] are much like 4th order bandpass boxes, but the horn also resonates at a family of frequencies. The front chamber also isolates the driver from the horn at midrange frequencies. The big difference is that the system behaves like a closed box so it has controlled cone excursion and still some efficiency when operated below the lowest resonance of the horn
If you want a system capable of radiating both bass and sub-bass frequencies with some eficiency you need a front loaded horn or a rear loaded horn big enough to resonate down to 30Hz [ie: of the size of the LAB12 - Not practical]
If you can live without the midrange from the scoops, you can just place a closed box of the right size in front of the driver, or even better, you could place a reflex box tuned lower enough to not disturb the horn [ie : below the lowest horn resonance]. This modification will boost sub-bass performance substantially
Also, horns are usually designed to be used in groups of 4 to 6 units because this allows a great size reduction. When you use such undersized horns in groups of less than 4 most efficiency below 70Hz IS LOST. Your scoops look like they were designed to be used in groups of 4 [or 2 placed back to back to a wall, or 1 placed in a corner]
So don't try to get efficiency outdoors or in big rooms with only one scoop in each side. It isn't a matter of power. When you put 4 scoops together they have improved power handling, dramatically reduced cone displacement and improved efficiency. You will outperform a single scoop feed with 1000W just with 4 scoops toghether feed with 4x60W, specially at low frequencies.
As a cheap option, you may try to build another 2 scoops and place all 4 toghether [mono bass] to improve efficiency outdoors
Finally, take into account that particle-board hardly has the rigidness needed to make a horn of such a size and this reduces efficiency and causes coloration [try placing your hand at the walls of the horn, I doubt they are quiet when playing loud]. I recommend something like 18mm or 22mm 13-layer ply-wood
EDIT :
I forgot to mention that the benefits of placing some [intentionally] undersized horns toghether are because groups of horns mutually load themselves and resonate down to a lower frequency [ie : a single horn may resonate down to 50Hz but the same horn in groups of 4 may resonate down to 36Hz and in groups of 6 or 8 may even resonate down to 28Hz depending on design]. Groups of [undersized] horns also tend to have almost flat LF response while a single [undersized] horn has marked peaks and dips
Eva, the option of adding a closed box in front of the driver is a really good one, you are then getting close to a folded horn design such as the Cerwin-Vega LP-36. I have 8 of them and they do very well, especially arrayed in a 2X2 stack. If laid on thier side driver to driver, I've measured over 11dB of output from coupling. Great Idea.
-Ricky
-Ricky
darkm4n :
Your scoops appear to have a 35 liter rear chamber. If you decide to convert them into front-loaded horns then this volume would have to be reduced to about 2-8L [depending on desired midbass output] and a sealed chamber of about 30-60L should be used in front of the driver [and the less paralell walls the better]. Exact volumes will depend on the PA driver you choose. Reflex tuning of the front chamber to 30-36Hz is optional and may provide enhanced sub-bass power handling and maybe 2-3dB sub-bass boost
Your scoops appear to have a 35 liter rear chamber. If you decide to convert them into front-loaded horns then this volume would have to be reduced to about 2-8L [depending on desired midbass output] and a sealed chamber of about 30-60L should be used in front of the driver [and the less paralell walls the better]. Exact volumes will depend on the PA driver you choose. Reflex tuning of the front chamber to 30-36Hz is optional and may provide enhanced sub-bass power handling and maybe 2-3dB sub-bass boost
reply
Oh and if you decide to stay with the scoops you definatly need to add about 1 inch thick wadding behind the speaker.
1 inch ,Fiberglass is irritating to skin n lungs
so either wear glothes n mask or use 1 and 1/2 inches of polyester wadding the stuff u get in pillows,divets etc.😀
Oh and if you decide to stay with the scoops you definatly need to add about 1 inch thick wadding behind the speaker.
1 inch ,Fiberglass is irritating to skin n lungs
so either wear glothes n mask or use 1 and 1/2 inches of polyester wadding the stuff u get in pillows,divets etc.😀
The HD15 is just a 'short' bass horn, it statrs to roll-off at 75Hz having little output below 60Hz and it's designed to be used in groups of 6 or more units, maybe with aditional reflex subwoofers
But darkm4n wants extended LF output down to about 30Hz so any of the other designs shown on that web page would be much more convenient [ie: 1850 horn, 21" 28Hz scoop, etc...]
But darkm4n wants extended LF output down to about 30Hz so any of the other designs shown on that web page would be much more convenient [ie: 1850 horn, 21" 28Hz scoop, etc...]
reply
But the 1850 horn and 21 inch scoop gets very large and the parts are expensive.
So for low frequencies down to 30hz Darkm8n is better off using a bandpass or reflex enclosure with a 18 inch.
The 184 bandpass sub on www.speakerplans.com using a 18 inch would be ideal,as it goes down to 32hz.
😎
But the 1850 horn and 21 inch scoop gets very large and the parts are expensive.
So for low frequencies down to 30hz Darkm8n is better off using a bandpass or reflex enclosure with a 18 inch.
The 184 bandpass sub on www.speakerplans.com using a 18 inch would be ideal,as it goes down to 32hz.
😎Attachments
Heh, an audio consulting firm I once worked for called those designs "Three Note Wonders". They do seem to be very popular for clubs or small venues.
Hmm ...
Very very comfused ...
1. My scoop's are made from 18 mm MDF board's , are they gonna hold ?
2. What i have to do ? Stick with the scoop's ? Buy other driver's ?
3. Ok , let's say i stick with the 2 scoop's i have , what type of cab's should i place over them to make a decent stack . ( excluding the HF unit )
4. Building other scoop's .. nah .. too big and i'am not very impresed about the performance ...
5. I have to admit .. the LAB 12 is hard to build .. i can build it .. but i can't store it .. i don't have room .. and ..
6. I'am interested in the cab's to put over the scoops .
Some reflex sub's ?? I don't know .. you are the expert .. i'am the builder 🙂)
THANKS !!!
Very very comfused ...
1. My scoop's are made from 18 mm MDF board's , are they gonna hold ?
2. What i have to do ? Stick with the scoop's ? Buy other driver's ?
3. Ok , let's say i stick with the 2 scoop's i have , what type of cab's should i place over them to make a decent stack . ( excluding the HF unit )
4. Building other scoop's .. nah .. too big and i'am not very impresed about the performance ...
5. I have to admit .. the LAB 12 is hard to build .. i can build it .. but i can't store it .. i don't have room .. and ..
6. I'am interested in the cab's to put over the scoops .
Some reflex sub's ?? I don't know .. you are the expert .. i'am the builder 🙂)
THANKS !!!
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