Yes.... did this for years. Simply measure both drivers full-range and compare impulse response to find the timing difference.
The first means don't try to work out what the offset is, it isn't necessary. It's also less accurate... This was popular because everybody started using REW, and REW cannot measure phase including the right amount of delay using a single channel, like HolmImpulse could.
The second means that you should then use two channels to get the phase.. which at the same time makes sure that both drivers are timed together, meaning their relative phase measurement is correct at that location. This means you can use the phase data straight from the measurement.
The second means that you should then use two channels to get the phase.. which at the same time makes sure that both drivers are timed together, meaning their relative phase measurement is correct at that location. This means you can use the phase data straight from the measurement.
Hi,
I am the guy with the ETON 3-212. This is my first speaker and I am beyond lucky that hifijim is in the same city. A million thanks to hifijim, he is a class act.
A comparison of the SB Textreme Tweeter + 6” Woofer & Bliesma t25b-6 + 3” Eton Woofer + 10” Seas
It was really neat comparing 2 speakers in mono. I used equalizer APO + P.E.A.C.E. to change between the speakers and to send mono to both. I also loaded a few filters in P.E.A.C.E. so we could listen to >333hz and >2000hz. The topping 10s was the dac.
Both speaker have a large edge radius. Mine is 44mm. I don’t know hifijim’s, but it is significant.
I have since discovered my sub should have been inverted, but the filtered tests got around that. (Hifijim’s ears picked up right away that I had bass and timing issues.)
Once things were level matched as close as possible, it was hard to distinguish one speaker from the other listening to the filtered music. I tried all kinds of recordings. I especially tried female vocals and even a mono church choir recording since science says that should be easiest for my ears to compare. I did hear a tiny difference only when filtering >2000hz- the bliesma went to black a little faster to my ears.
I wish I would have listened in the back of the room more to hear how each mixed with the room. My main aim is for a desk setup so I sat right in front of each for the session.
We listened to Flac’s, mp3’s, and spotify. Spotify tracs:
tweeter on Spotify
I also compared my new speaker with my old one (jbl s36ii) and there was stark difference. The jbl’s were muffled by comparison.
Thanks again to hifijim for lugging over his proto-box! The textremes sound great to my ears. They look really cool too.
The big takeaway for me is that I will focus less on the off-axis behavior for my next speaker.
The XO for the ETON 3” and BlieSMa t25b-6 is roughly a LR6 at 1900hz. The speaker is a WIP so keep that in mind. I am also a newb.
Measurement at 1 meter
VCAD sim based on real measurements (hificompass/audioexcite/hifi.de) and baffle sim:
A early eyeballed off-axis. The tweeter is not flush and I hope some of this cleans up:
I am the guy with the ETON 3-212. This is my first speaker and I am beyond lucky that hifijim is in the same city. A million thanks to hifijim, he is a class act.
A comparison of the SB Textreme Tweeter + 6” Woofer & Bliesma t25b-6 + 3” Eton Woofer + 10” Seas
It was really neat comparing 2 speakers in mono. I used equalizer APO + P.E.A.C.E. to change between the speakers and to send mono to both. I also loaded a few filters in P.E.A.C.E. so we could listen to >333hz and >2000hz. The topping 10s was the dac.
Both speaker have a large edge radius. Mine is 44mm. I don’t know hifijim’s, but it is significant.
I have since discovered my sub should have been inverted, but the filtered tests got around that. (Hifijim’s ears picked up right away that I had bass and timing issues.)
Once things were level matched as close as possible, it was hard to distinguish one speaker from the other listening to the filtered music. I tried all kinds of recordings. I especially tried female vocals and even a mono church choir recording since science says that should be easiest for my ears to compare. I did hear a tiny difference only when filtering >2000hz- the bliesma went to black a little faster to my ears.
I wish I would have listened in the back of the room more to hear how each mixed with the room. My main aim is for a desk setup so I sat right in front of each for the session.
We listened to Flac’s, mp3’s, and spotify. Spotify tracs:
tweeter on Spotify
I also compared my new speaker with my old one (jbl s36ii) and there was stark difference. The jbl’s were muffled by comparison.
Thanks again to hifijim for lugging over his proto-box! The textremes sound great to my ears. They look really cool too.
The big takeaway for me is that I will focus less on the off-axis behavior for my next speaker.
The XO for the ETON 3” and BlieSMa t25b-6 is roughly a LR6 at 1900hz. The speaker is a WIP so keep that in mind. I am also a newb.
Measurement at 1 meter
VCAD sim based on real measurements (hificompass/audioexcite/hifi.de) and baffle sim:
A early eyeballed off-axis. The tweeter is not flush and I hope some of this cleans up:
Very good! Off axis and beaming are way over rated to me anyway. Listening tests mean way more to me than any measurement; regardless of equipment or software used. Many people will argue this point forever; I really don't care. I know what real musical instruments and singing voices are supposed sound like; it's THAT SIMPLE REALLY!
@Headshake
Yet - showing off curves, that looks like pretty good off-axis measurements
Hifijim also has some nice curves:
New active 3-Way, Hypex and SB
So my point stands pretty solid. If FR - both on and off axis is rather smooth and even. Then it mostly sounds good - apparently according to most people... no matter if they buy finished products or build themselves
Yet - showing off curves, that looks like pretty good off-axis measurements
Hifijim also has some nice curves:
New active 3-Way, Hypex and SB
So my point stands pretty solid. If FR - both on and off axis is rather smooth and even. Then it mostly sounds good - apparently according to most people... no matter if they buy finished products or build themselves
Also, many designs are purposely hot or bright on axis and should be listened to off axis. I had a very knowledgeable physics, acoustics and speaker design PHD Professor tell me that frequency response was the most important and if you got that right; everything else is usually pretty good as well. BUT, as I and others have said often, you can NOT tell what a speaker will sound like just by looking at the FR plot. It is a good place to start though; I agree.
Oh yes - agree. A simple FR cant tell you everything about the sound. It can only tell you that there is a pretty good chance. Resonances, wrong overlap, suckouts from other drivers badly EQ'ed curves and so on..... might look nice on-axis, but you gotta take it all in, little differences, compare different aspects. This is why it's fun
@Headshake
Yet - showing off curves, that looks like pretty good off-axis measurements
Thanks! It came at the cost of max spl's. Hifijim's tweeter is the size of my mid! His textreme speaker had to be gimped like -6 db to match mine.
BTW, post 606 in this thread has hifijim's graphs for the speaker we compared:
SB Acoustics Textreme.
hifijim has repeatedly reminded me that "you don't know until you build it". I think this agrees with what you all are saying.
If I had to slice out where things are very similar, both speakers are flat 1khz-5khz out to about 30-degrees. Maybe this should just be the focus for my next one?
Anyways, I think anyone rocking a textreme is in for some super clear listening sessions.
Headshake and I had a lot of email conversations about driver selection before he settled on the Eton 3". He had fairly demanding requirements for off-axis dispersion and center-to-center distance between drivers. Both his tweeter and mid driver are essentially omnidirectional at the 2k crossover point.
He has used some creative ideas to assemble high performance cabinets without access to a workshop. When he is finished I hope he shares pictures and tips...
He has used some creative ideas to assemble high performance cabinets without access to a workshop. When he is finished I hope he shares pictures and tips...
I assume the XO has a 24 dB slope with such a low XO (300 Hz) ?
I have the Close SS 10F, so a 3" as well, and with Fs as high as 100 Hz, someone like T Gravsen uses such little drivers a little bit higher ... 500 hz to 800 hz but 12 dB slope !
I surmise it's all about power handling... Certainly the 10" could be crossed a little higher... after all, all the energy of the music is almost below 800 Hz in most programms !
Just two cents, I don't know really !
I have the Close SS 10F, so a 3" as well, and with Fs as high as 100 Hz, someone like T Gravsen uses such little drivers a little bit higher ... 500 hz to 800 hz but 12 dB slope !
I surmise it's all about power handling... Certainly the 10" could be crossed a little higher... after all, all the energy of the music is almost below 800 Hz in most programms !
Just two cents, I don't know really !
ScanSpeak 10F was a driver we talked about.
If this were a passive speaker, it would be complicated to have a ~300 Hz crossover on a cone driver with an Fs of 112 Hz. A lot of circuitry would be needed to handle the big impedance rise at Fs only 1 - 1/2 octave away...
But Headshake is using an active amp setup with DSP crossovers. So there is no complication with a crossover at 300, or 200, or even 100...
As I said, he had fairly demanding requirements for off-axis dispersion and center-to-center distance between drivers. This I believe drove his decision to cross from the 10 to the 3 at ~ 300 Hz
If this were a passive speaker, it would be complicated to have a ~300 Hz crossover on a cone driver with an Fs of 112 Hz. A lot of circuitry would be needed to handle the big impedance rise at Fs only 1 - 1/2 octave away...
But Headshake is using an active amp setup with DSP crossovers. So there is no complication with a crossover at 300, or 200, or even 100...
As I said, he had fairly demanding requirements for off-axis dispersion and center-to-center distance between drivers. This I believe drove his decision to cross from the 10 to the 3 at ~ 300 Hz
This got me thinking. I am using the MA P7PHD for a high mid. It has an outer diameter of 122.3 mm (about 4.8 inch) and an SD of 0.0050 m^2 or 50 cm^2. I measured the diameter of the cone; it is about 73 mm (2.9 inch). Combined electrical and acoustic roll off from my custom 2nd order X/O LP and custom HP on the Fostex T90A gives me an effective X/O at about 3450. The Fostex body and MA basket literally touch each other so the spacing is the absolute minimum. (The MA enclosure has zero front/baffle face that makes this arrangement possible). I have yet to measure this as I am not done with my final arrangement. Trust me; one day I WILL get the measurements going. To my old ears; this is a very seamless blend in the crossover region. If you listen at a close range; it is obvious when the ST does the highest octave because it is a bullet type horn after all. BUT, from my normal listening position, the sound stage seems just about as good as it can get in my room. The P7P has a small cone diameter and area compared with the basket diameter so I think this helps. I have to cross it electrically lower than I normally would because the hump at about 48 to 4900 Hz can give some recordings a false brightness or harshness. This is actually not too bad; some may not notice it at all and it does depend very much on the recording (violin overtones and harmonics in particular can get over done here as an example)... Again, why I prefer listening tests...
And, the Satori MR16 does the low mids (also very minimum front/baffle face), now on a separate amp from the P7P. THIS is where I would like to try the TexTreme MR13TX. To go as low as the MR16 and as high as the P7P but all from one driver. [300 Hz to 6000 Hz optimum for my purposes]. I would probably prefer a 12 cm instead of 13 cm and a true full range instead of a mid range...keep dreaming...one day it will happen...
And, the Satori MR16 does the low mids (also very minimum front/baffle face), now on a separate amp from the P7P. THIS is where I would like to try the TexTreme MR13TX. To go as low as the MR16 and as high as the P7P but all from one driver. [300 Hz to 6000 Hz optimum for my purposes]. I would probably prefer a 12 cm instead of 13 cm and a true full range instead of a mid range...keep dreaming...one day it will happen...
For information, l asked recently SBA about midrange textreme mr13tx and mr16tx and they answered that these drivers are not on the roadmap for the moment. After, mw16 and mw19, mw13, the wo24p textreme is the next one.
Maybe the mw13tx could be close to what you want if the performances between 3kHz and 5kHz are not to bad ? Sadly it is not on the driver list Hificompass is going to test.
Yes, good to have that info though so thanks MUCH! I am not in a hurry but would like them to very seriously consider a true full range. I said this many times; why not a 12 cm to compete with Mark Audio, Fostex and others? Satori is a very good motor and basket, the TexTreme cone I think is the best new thing in at least the last 10 or 20 years to make very significant improvements in measured and listening test BOTH!
https://solen.ca/wp-content/uploads/mw13tx8-1.pdf
https://solen.ca/wp-content/uploads/mw13tx4.pdf
$367.30 Canadian on back order at Solen.
I am sending an e mail asking about availability estimates. Since the MR13TX mids are not on the horizon; these MW13TX look good enough out to maybe 4 or 5 KHz and that would most likely meet my needs. Now if our politicians decide to give us a $2000 stimulus check for COVID instead of just $600; ding ding ding...Solen gets my money since Madisound, Meniscus and others aren't even showing the 13's yet.
That is about $288 US (per piece) at today's exchange rate. High price for sure but still cheaper than Illuminator, Accuton and others...
https://solen.ca/wp-content/uploads/mw13tx4.pdf
$367.30 Canadian on back order at Solen.
I am sending an e mail asking about availability estimates. Since the MR13TX mids are not on the horizon; these MW13TX look good enough out to maybe 4 or 5 KHz and that would most likely meet my needs. Now if our politicians decide to give us a $2000 stimulus check for COVID instead of just $600; ding ding ding...Solen gets my money since Madisound, Meniscus and others aren't even showing the 13's yet.
That is about $288 US (per piece) at today's exchange rate. High price for sure but still cheaper than Illuminator, Accuton and others...
I usually choose 4 Ohm over 8 Ohm if nothing else, for the sensitivity. All of my amplifiers can easily drive 4 Ohms so "extra" power is never one of my concerns. The 4 Ohm MW13TX has a lower VC inductance than the 8 Ohm version, that's always a bonus for me! Some of the Satori paper cone 4 Ohm drivers seem to have a slightly flatter FR curve than the 8 Ohm versions; another good thing...
I ALWAYS compare moving mass and inductance; some of the white cone Satori models have a lower moving mass than their gray cone siblings; all else being equal; that is also a bonus for me.
I ALWAYS compare moving mass and inductance; some of the white cone Satori models have a lower moving mass than their gray cone siblings; all else being equal; that is also a bonus for me.