Hi All,
I think I'm going to dive in head first and work towards a great set of Active 3 ways.
I'm going to run a Hypex Fa123/253 depending on power needs.
I've been doing a heap of reading and have come up with the following options.
Tweeter - TW29BN/TW29R-B/TW29TXN-B
Mids - MR16P/MW19P/MW16TX/MW19TX
Bass - SB34NRXL75-8/ Any other suggestions here?
What are your thoughts on these options/combos?
Also when running the Hypex amps, is there a preference on which Ohm version of the speaker you should use?
Throw as much advice my way as you can, keen to start purchasing parts
I think I'm going to dive in head first and work towards a great set of Active 3 ways.
I'm going to run a Hypex Fa123/253 depending on power needs.
I've been doing a heap of reading and have come up with the following options.
Tweeter - TW29BN/TW29R-B/TW29TXN-B
Mids - MR16P/MW19P/MW16TX/MW19TX
Bass - SB34NRXL75-8/ Any other suggestions here?
What are your thoughts on these options/combos?
Also when running the Hypex amps, is there a preference on which Ohm version of the speaker you should use?
Throw as much advice my way as you can, keen to start purchasing parts
Hi,
Sometimes expensive drivers may not live up to expectations to being much better than cheaper but good quality ones ; ).
Once in my life I was quite dissapointed in buying hard cone/dome transducers. So IMO soft speakers from the list are a safer bet.
Also 6.5 and bigger running as a mid range may not be as optimal as let's say 5". Do more research, SB drivers are common. There are lots of measurements, including THD, waterfall etc.
And there should be no issues with differing speaker impedances while going active as long as amps are not overloaded.
Regards,
Lukas.
Sometimes expensive drivers may not live up to expectations to being much better than cheaper but good quality ones ; ).
Once in my life I was quite dissapointed in buying hard cone/dome transducers. So IMO soft speakers from the list are a safer bet.
Also 6.5 and bigger running as a mid range may not be as optimal as let's say 5". Do more research, SB drivers are common. There are lots of measurements, including THD, waterfall etc.
And there should be no issues with differing speaker impedances while going active as long as amps are not overloaded.
Regards,
Lukas.
When coming up with a design, you need a well written list of requirements to guide your decision making. This is because the list of speaker drivers available is nearly endless, so you need reasons to choose one over another. And if you have a good set of requirements, you will greatly narrow down the possiblities.Hi All,
I think I'm going to dive in head first and work towards a great set of Active 3 ways.
I'm going to run a Hypex Fa123/253 depending on power needs.
I've been doing a heap of reading and have come up with the following options.
Tweeter - TW29BN/TW29R-B/TW29TXN-B
Mids - MR16P/MW19P/MW16TX/MW19TX
Bass - SB34NRXL75-8/ Any other suggestions here?
What are your thoughts on these options/combos?
Also when running the Hypex amps, is there a preference on which Ohm version of the speaker you should use?
Throw as much advice my way as you can, keen to start purchasing parts
And you can derive these requirements from some simple questions you can ask yourself.
I think the first question to ask is what are you hoping for? Is it about the process of building it, or about ending up with a specific end result? What do you want your speaker to do or to be that mass produced speakers are not doing?
Then there are technical details like what frequency range do you want to cover, what size do you want it to be, how loud do you want it to be, do you plan to supplement low frequencies with a subwoofer, will it have active or passive crossovers, etc.
Hi Fredygump,
Thanks for the info.
I guess what i'm hoping for is a high end set of floor standers, Using good quality proven drivers and a good quality amp. From there it's up to me to dial in crossovers etc and learn along the way. I have built a CNC router so i'm looking forward to making the cabinets myself.
I have looked at spending $4k on a set of retail floor standers but then i think i would enjoy building something, something a bit out of the normal and learn a lot in the process.
The aim for the speakers is to cover the full spectrum if i'm listening in stereo for music. Or to blend in with an 18" full marty sub and a couple of 15" devastator type subs. These aren't built yet, in the planning at the moment also.
Size wise isn't too much of a problem, there is plenty of room. Any normal/large floor stander size will be fine.
I'd like them to play reasonably loud for movie watching, but im not sure what DB that would relate to.
Will be active crossovers, Hypex.
Hi Andersonix,
Yeah i've had a good look through all the kits, i've based a lot of my thinking on those & some research on common driver combos on the forum.
There isn't too many reviews out about them, but i thought going fully DIY with cabinets and Active crossovers it gives me some flexibility
to create whatever i come up with.
I guess where my thinking is at, I'm looking for a great combo of drivers, and from there i work on enclosure/crossovers to suit.
Is that kind of thinking ok?
I know i've got a lot to learn, but thats part of the fun
Thanks all
Thanks for the info.
I guess what i'm hoping for is a high end set of floor standers, Using good quality proven drivers and a good quality amp. From there it's up to me to dial in crossovers etc and learn along the way. I have built a CNC router so i'm looking forward to making the cabinets myself.
I have looked at spending $4k on a set of retail floor standers but then i think i would enjoy building something, something a bit out of the normal and learn a lot in the process.
The aim for the speakers is to cover the full spectrum if i'm listening in stereo for music. Or to blend in with an 18" full marty sub and a couple of 15" devastator type subs. These aren't built yet, in the planning at the moment also.
Size wise isn't too much of a problem, there is plenty of room. Any normal/large floor stander size will be fine.
I'd like them to play reasonably loud for movie watching, but im not sure what DB that would relate to.
Will be active crossovers, Hypex.
Hi Andersonix,
Yeah i've had a good look through all the kits, i've based a lot of my thinking on those & some research on common driver combos on the forum.
There isn't too many reviews out about them, but i thought going fully DIY with cabinets and Active crossovers it gives me some flexibility
to create whatever i come up with.
I guess where my thinking is at, I'm looking for a great combo of drivers, and from there i work on enclosure/crossovers to suit.
Is that kind of thinking ok?
I know i've got a lot to learn, but thats part of the fun
Thanks all
@neo004, With a budget of $4,000, you can make something pretty impressive. The most effective use of DIY effort is in making your own subs, so if you decide to have a separate subwoofer (or 3?), plan to make that subwoofer yourself. You can buy 2 mediocre subs for $4k, while you could make massively impressive subs for the same amount.
Do you you want thin fashionable towers, or do you like larger drivers? What is the total cabinet volume you can accept?
My project is a pair of full range, 4 way floor standing speakers. My goal was to combine tower speakers with multiple subwoofer optimization. My starting point was the Genelec W371A low frequency cabinet, and I added a coaxial driver to make them full range. I took the leap, because this type of system doesn't exist for less than $25k. Sure, the one for $25k is gotta be better, but my investment is closer to that $4k number.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ting-multiple-subwoofers.401343/#post-7428808
Of course you can start by picking drivers and design a cabinet around them. You have to start somewhere. It doesn't matter where you start. If you get modeling software and start plugging in your drivers, you'll find out what size the cabinet will need to be and what the frequency response will be. And then you see what happens if you change the size, add a port, remove a port, add a second driver, add a larger driver, etc. The goal is to decide what you really want. At first it is hard to know exactly. Modeling speakers, drawing designs, and making mock-ups are all part of the process.
Do you you want thin fashionable towers, or do you like larger drivers? What is the total cabinet volume you can accept?
My project is a pair of full range, 4 way floor standing speakers. My goal was to combine tower speakers with multiple subwoofer optimization. My starting point was the Genelec W371A low frequency cabinet, and I added a coaxial driver to make them full range. I took the leap, because this type of system doesn't exist for less than $25k. Sure, the one for $25k is gotta be better, but my investment is closer to that $4k number.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ting-multiple-subwoofers.401343/#post-7428808
Of course you can start by picking drivers and design a cabinet around them. You have to start somewhere. It doesn't matter where you start. If you get modeling software and start plugging in your drivers, you'll find out what size the cabinet will need to be and what the frequency response will be. And then you see what happens if you change the size, add a port, remove a port, add a second driver, add a larger driver, etc. The goal is to decide what you really want. At first it is hard to know exactly. Modeling speakers, drawing designs, and making mock-ups are all part of the process.
I have designed and built four pairs of active 3-ways using Hypex amps. The FA123 or FA253 are a very good product.
Your selection of drivers is a good starting point, but there is so much more to a successful design then just selecting the drivers. The layout of the baffle will define much of the performance. Baffle layout encompasses the size and shape of the baffle, the driver position and spacing, and the configuration of the edge. Once the baffle shape is set, much of the sound power and directivity performance become fixed.
I recommend that you get comfortable with VituixCad simulation software. Invest in a reasonably good measurement system, including a 2-channel audio interface and a decent measurement microphone with mic stand. To take full advantage of the simulation software, you will need to feed it some real driver data from a real cabinet. Be prepared to make a prototype cabinet to collect some measurement data, and then use that data in simulation to refine the baffle layout before making the final cabinets. Realistically, this is the best way to get a high quality design on the first attempt.
Here are some threads which you should read carefully... Others have done what you are about to do, so it is good to learn from their efforts.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/a-3-way-design-study.376620/post-6775400
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/new-active-satori-textreme.366347/post-6493543
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/purifi-waveguide-project.394174/post-7226601
Your selection of drivers is a good starting point, but there is so much more to a successful design then just selecting the drivers. The layout of the baffle will define much of the performance. Baffle layout encompasses the size and shape of the baffle, the driver position and spacing, and the configuration of the edge. Once the baffle shape is set, much of the sound power and directivity performance become fixed.
I recommend that you get comfortable with VituixCad simulation software. Invest in a reasonably good measurement system, including a 2-channel audio interface and a decent measurement microphone with mic stand. To take full advantage of the simulation software, you will need to feed it some real driver data from a real cabinet. Be prepared to make a prototype cabinet to collect some measurement data, and then use that data in simulation to refine the baffle layout before making the final cabinets. Realistically, this is the best way to get a high quality design on the first attempt.
Here are some threads which you should read carefully... Others have done what you are about to do, so it is good to learn from their efforts.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/a-3-way-design-study.376620/post-6775400
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/new-active-satori-textreme.366347/post-6493543
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/purifi-waveguide-project.394174/post-7226601
Hi Hifijim,
Thanks, Some of your posts were the inspiration I used to decide to have a go at this. I just started learning VituixCad last night. I've got a Umik-1 & Dats V2.
Appreciate I have a lot to learn in the process and will have many more questions along the way.
I guess my thought process is correct then, i'll keep researching drivers, getting some more advice, then purchase them so i can get started with measurements etc.
Thanks, Some of your posts were the inspiration I used to decide to have a go at this. I just started learning VituixCad last night. I've got a Umik-1 & Dats V2.
Appreciate I have a lot to learn in the process and will have many more questions along the way.
I guess my thought process is correct then, i'll keep researching drivers, getting some more advice, then purchase them so i can get started with measurements etc.
Well that is nice to know... I am glad you found them useful.
More thoughts:
With the DSP capability of the Hypex amps, it is possible to get very deep high performance bass from the SB34NRXL driver in small sealed box cabinet.
The SB34NRXL-8 is a very capable bass driver. It is a wide driver, and needs a wide baffle just due to its size. However, in order to optimize the directivity performance of the speaker using a non-waveguide tweeter, the baffle area around the tweeter will need to be small, with a large chamfer or radius. Combining a 340 cm diameter driver with a small narrow baffle around the tweeter will require some complex cabinet shapes, probably some sort of trapezoidal shape for the midrange and tweeter, or pyramidal shape for the whole box... One possibility is to make the bass cabinet separate from the mid/tweeter cabinet.
A waveguide is another way to manage the directivity of the tweeter. Here is an elegant way of combining a 12" woofer, 6" mid, and waveguide into a good looking high performance cabinet. This is @PKAudio 's project https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...iesma-t34b-in-wg-18we-32w.365836/post-6777874
NOW you tell us?? What have you made so far on it? Maybe you should make something more modest before your full-frontal Satori 3-way...?
I've made a few things on it but mainly signs and things like that. I've built a few sets of speakers over the years but figure its time to go all in lol.
What better way to learn.
From a bit more reading, i think i've decided on the SB34NRXL75-8 & MW16TX.
Can't decide on the tweeter though there is so many variations, Satori/Textreme/Beryllium, then an option for neo magnets etc. Makes it hard.
Im thinking either Textreme of Beryllium. Just not sure which model .
What better way to learn.
From a bit more reading, i think i've decided on the SB34NRXL75-8 & MW16TX.
Can't decide on the tweeter though there is so many variations, Satori/Textreme/Beryllium, then an option for neo magnets etc. Makes it hard.
Im thinking either Textreme of Beryllium. Just not sure which model .
@hifijim
How have you got your audio source setup for the Hypex amps?
Eg. In my scenario, i'll be running them from my Denon X3800h to control volume etc, i assume i just use the preout on the amp to the Hypex.
I would set a base volume on the hypex then use the normal volume control on the Denon?
Thanks heaps
How have you got your audio source setup for the Hypex amps?
Eg. In my scenario, i'll be running them from my Denon X3800h to control volume etc, i assume i just use the preout on the amp to the Hypex.
I would set a base volume on the hypex then use the normal volume control on the Denon?
Thanks heaps
Hi,
I would suggest first to determine what's your cross over f, slope, driver sensitivity requirements and only then go for driver selection.
Some can go as low as 1.5-2k but others show increased distortion at those frequencies. Cone material is only one of many factors.
As already suggested a 6" mid may be better mated with a wave-guided tweeter, as wave guides often icrease output at lower freqs.
Regards
I would suggest first to determine what's your cross over f, slope, driver sensitivity requirements and only then go for driver selection.
Some can go as low as 1.5-2k but others show increased distortion at those frequencies. Cone material is only one of many factors.
As already suggested a 6" mid may be better mated with a wave-guided tweeter, as wave guides often icrease output at lower freqs.
Regards
In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with selecting drivers at the start of a project, as long as they are compatible with each other. This is particularly true with an active design. All design projects have to start with some assumptions and some starting decisions, and selecting some appropriate drivers is not a bad way to start.
The SB34NRXL and MW16TX are very nice drivers and they will play well together. You will have the flexibility to set the lower crossover anywhere between 100 Hz to 400 Hz.
If you plan on making a non-waveguide speaker, then VituixCad has all the simulation capabilities you need. The enclosure tool will let you model the woofer, the box, and the DSP EQ. With this information you can decide how large of a box you need. The diffraction tool will let you model the 4-pi radiation of each driver, as an ideal piston, in a simulated cabinet. With this data you can try to assemble preliminary crossovers, adjust driver spacing and position, optimize baffle width, etc.
If you plan on using a waveguide for the tweeter, you will need some data which VituixCad will not supply. You can learn to use a Boundary Element Model (BEM) such as ATH4 / ABEC / AKABAK, or work with one of our experts run some simulations for you. Or you can attach a proven waveguide to your tweeter of choice and mount it in a prototype cabinet and make some polar measurements. Either way, you will get some polar data on the tweeter which is then used in VituixCad.
I think you will have to decide on the waveguide / non-waveguide question fairly early in the design process, as this drives a lot of other baffle design parameters. To achieve good directivity performance through the crossover region, a non-waveguide tweeter needs a very different baffle shape than does a waveguide tweeter. Baffle shape affects all other aspects of speaker design, both structurally and aesthetically.
I have a thread where I went through the learning process of simulating ideal piston drivers in a variety of baffle shapes. I made a lot of mistakes and tried a lot of configurations which led nowhere. But there is a lot of good information there…
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ations-with-ideal-drivers.380658/post-6880731
In the LCCAM thread, I knew what I was doing, and I was more successful in designing the baffle with simulation.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/compact-low-cost-active-3-way-speaker.402812/post-7440893
I am enthusiastic about your project. You have a realistic budget, and you seem to have some good woodworking tools. I don’t have a CNC router but I would like to get one some day.
j.
The SB34NRXL and MW16TX are very nice drivers and they will play well together. You will have the flexibility to set the lower crossover anywhere between 100 Hz to 400 Hz.
If you plan on making a non-waveguide speaker, then VituixCad has all the simulation capabilities you need. The enclosure tool will let you model the woofer, the box, and the DSP EQ. With this information you can decide how large of a box you need. The diffraction tool will let you model the 4-pi radiation of each driver, as an ideal piston, in a simulated cabinet. With this data you can try to assemble preliminary crossovers, adjust driver spacing and position, optimize baffle width, etc.
If you plan on using a waveguide for the tweeter, you will need some data which VituixCad will not supply. You can learn to use a Boundary Element Model (BEM) such as ATH4 / ABEC / AKABAK, or work with one of our experts run some simulations for you. Or you can attach a proven waveguide to your tweeter of choice and mount it in a prototype cabinet and make some polar measurements. Either way, you will get some polar data on the tweeter which is then used in VituixCad.
I think you will have to decide on the waveguide / non-waveguide question fairly early in the design process, as this drives a lot of other baffle design parameters. To achieve good directivity performance through the crossover region, a non-waveguide tweeter needs a very different baffle shape than does a waveguide tweeter. Baffle shape affects all other aspects of speaker design, both structurally and aesthetically.
I have a thread where I went through the learning process of simulating ideal piston drivers in a variety of baffle shapes. I made a lot of mistakes and tried a lot of configurations which led nowhere. But there is a lot of good information there…
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ations-with-ideal-drivers.380658/post-6880731
In the LCCAM thread, I knew what I was doing, and I was more successful in designing the baffle with simulation.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/compact-low-cost-active-3-way-speaker.402812/post-7440893
I am enthusiastic about your project. You have a realistic budget, and you seem to have some good woodworking tools. I don’t have a CNC router but I would like to get one some day.
j.
A man with his own CNC router will eventually feel the pull of designing a Translam cabinet. How big is your router table?
This process may get me hooked. So there is a chance in the future i'll experiment with more elaborate designs.
The cnc can do 1200mmx900mm.
I think i will run with the non waveguide version, i like the look better. I can then experiment with baffle designs, roundovers, etc. I'll be experimenting quite a bit with designs on the CNC using offcuts.
I think while im going i might as well just lash out and get the Beryllium tweeter - TW29BN-B
In regards to Impedance, both come in 4 and 8 ohms, with a few db difference in sensitivity.
Is there a preference here when running the Hypex?
Thanks again!
The cnc can do 1200mmx900mm.
I think i will run with the non waveguide version, i like the look better. I can then experiment with baffle designs, roundovers, etc. I'll be experimenting quite a bit with designs on the CNC using offcuts.
I think while im going i might as well just lash out and get the Beryllium tweeter - TW29BN-B
In regards to Impedance, both come in 4 and 8 ohms, with a few db difference in sensitivity.
Is there a preference here when running the Hypex?
Thanks again!
I don't think it makes much difference.
In the case of the MW16TX-4 and MW16TX-8, there is a 3 dB difference in sensitivity. The hypex FA253 is rated at 250 W into 4 Ohm, and 150 W into 8 Ohm. In theory, the maximum SPL of the MW16TX-4 (250W) will be 2 dB higher than the MW16TX-8 (150W). But this is a small difference.
In my case, I chose the 4 Ohm version because there was no other difference in performance, price, or aesthetics. If there was any sort of advantage to an 8 Ohm driver, I would choose it with no hesitation.
Combining measured data from prototypes with VituixCad simulations is an excellent way to achieve high performance.
j.
Thanks again Hifijim.
Some drivers are out of stock, so i'll get whichever impedance i can.
Another question to throw in the mix, I'm going to build a passive 3 way center channel, do i need to go to the same high end extreme with the drivers for the centre, i know they say to match drivers for voicing etc. The main speakers are high end for 2 channel music, so does the center have to keep up or its not as important as its just for movies. I could easily build a centre with the likes of drivers from your earlier build, SB17CAC35-4, SBA SB26CDC-C000-4, and a 5" mid or something along those line.
Thoughts?
Thanks heaps!
Some drivers are out of stock, so i'll get whichever impedance i can.
Another question to throw in the mix, I'm going to build a passive 3 way center channel, do i need to go to the same high end extreme with the drivers for the centre, i know they say to match drivers for voicing etc. The main speakers are high end for 2 channel music, so does the center have to keep up or its not as important as its just for movies. I could easily build a centre with the likes of drivers from your earlier build, SB17CAC35-4, SBA SB26CDC-C000-4, and a 5" mid or something along those line.
Thoughts?
Thanks heaps!