Ok I could not resist it any longer...............in the 80s the way cartridge paper is made changed, this was in the bleaching process of the paper pulp. After this all the new hi-end cap manufacturers were unable to make good paper in oil caps (the new bleaching process reacts with the oil in some bad way), so they started making things like polypropylene in oil. As the Russians are no mugs they found a paper mill which made paper in the old ways and hay presto they can make pio caps that work in the way pio caps should.
Documentation please.
As I understand it, PIO is Paper in oil.
Paper establishes the spacing between the plates of the capacitor.
Oil becomes the major (dominant) dielectric.
So the paper process resulted in acidic paper which impacted the quality o9f the insulator.
Acidic paper is the bane of the Scrapbook industry.
This follows the PIO spacer technology issue.
Is this a correct assertion, and am I following you correctly?
As I understand it, PIO is Paper in oil.
Paper establishes the spacing between the plates of the capacitor.
Oil becomes the major (dominant) dielectric.
So the paper process resulted in acidic paper which impacted the quality o9f the insulator.
Acidic paper is the bane of the Scrapbook industry.
This follows the PIO spacer technology issue.
Is this a correct assertion, and am I following you correctly?
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OK.
With due respect, perhaps I may rephrase the point(s) raised in my post #80 - they seem to have been noticed by only two posters.
Can anyone experiencing the wider soundstage, transparency, deeper ...[add here whatever your experience of different capacitors were], please explain to us what they figure the reason for said differences are/were? Not trying to derail the discussions, but we had ample manifestations that certain caps sound different to others (contradicted by others), without anyone offering explanations as to why. Where are the technically competent members?
.... and why it is that one very basic-proven-and-accepted phenomenon of hearing, viz. that it will adapt and 'get used to' a certain sound over several/many hours, has so far never been included as a possible factor in changing sound at all, except for a single recent remark by The Gimp? This with regard to the experience that capacitors 'run in' (PLEASE! they don't burn in - well hopefully not
)?
With due respect, perhaps I may rephrase the point(s) raised in my post #80 - they seem to have been noticed by only two posters.
Can anyone experiencing the wider soundstage, transparency, deeper ...[add here whatever your experience of different capacitors were], please explain to us what they figure the reason for said differences are/were? Not trying to derail the discussions, but we had ample manifestations that certain caps sound different to others (contradicted by others), without anyone offering explanations as to why. Where are the technically competent members?
.... and why it is that one very basic-proven-and-accepted phenomenon of hearing, viz. that it will adapt and 'get used to' a certain sound over several/many hours, has so far never been included as a possible factor in changing sound at all, except for a single recent remark by The Gimp? This with regard to the experience that capacitors 'run in' (PLEASE! they don't burn in - well hopefully not
)?
I would like to add a perhaps related question. The audio signal on its passage from the microphones in the recording studio, through the mixing, recording, CD making process, and then through the CD player, has probably passed through many more capacitors than it traverses in the home stereo amplifier. It is doubtful that any of those will have been paper in oil, or anything else particularly fancy.
If the construction of the odd capacitor or two in the home amplifier really does make such a difference as some people say (and I am not necessarily wanting to dispute those claims right now), does that mean that the audio signal has already suffered much greater degradations during its path to the output of the CD player, because of all the unremarkable-quality capacitors it will already have passed through?
Wouldn't the fine-tuning of one or two capacitors in the home amplifier be having a rather insignificant proportional effect, in view of what had gone before in the signal path?
Chris
Some circuits its more difficult to tell the difference, Others it can be very noticeable, all depending where/type obviously.....Some capacitors are just ugly as hell sounding...Ceramic comes to mind....always replace those with Silver Mica very noticeable difference. Film caps vary so much they all can sound very different in coupling/decoupling stages.. Same with Electrolytics...that can be a bit more difficult to hear/notice all depending where they are at etc On front end a little harder to decipher the difference but say Power Supply related I have noticed some very abrupt differences ...there's a lot of poor quality electrolytics though. Some are just very much noticeable better/have better specs etc.
Chris,
Your post #110. Lets just leave it at that.
Rant, though not intended: I have presented simple logic in posts #80 and #104. These questions have also been asked ad nausiam on many other forums - so far without any factual explanation ever having been offered. I am not holding my breath either. I acknowledge the reply by AudioFreak88; at least there was a response although it was mainly repetition of what was said before (and I do accept, his honest conclusions) without indicating where electronic principles are wrong then. M Gregg has also contributed; apology if I have left others out.
Not to be unkind, but I read the following sad quotation somewhere: "Sadly Audio is like that. It is about the only branch of electronic engineering where lack of knowledge is regarded as a more advanced form of wisdom." It is sad when dogma is based on experience for which there are alternative explanations. But it will continue, amplifiers (in this case) will be built with over-the-top components based on anecdotal 'evidence' only, etc. etc.
I have stated basics (and please, not my opinion ......; kindly don't add insult to injury). I am bowing out here; although many of us here have never met and never shall, I would like to have a few friends left when I depart this life (which won't be in the too distant future). Thanks to who-ever at least read the mentioned posts. Who knows - it might even lead to a re-examination of the situation by some lonely soul or other!
Let us experience forth!
Your post #110. Lets just leave it at that.
Rant, though not intended: I have presented simple logic in posts #80 and #104. These questions have also been asked ad nausiam on many other forums - so far without any factual explanation ever having been offered. I am not holding my breath either. I acknowledge the reply by AudioFreak88; at least there was a response although it was mainly repetition of what was said before (and I do accept, his honest conclusions) without indicating where electronic principles are wrong then. M Gregg has also contributed; apology if I have left others out.
Not to be unkind, but I read the following sad quotation somewhere: "Sadly Audio is like that. It is about the only branch of electronic engineering where lack of knowledge is regarded as a more advanced form of wisdom." It is sad when dogma is based on experience for which there are alternative explanations. But it will continue, amplifiers (in this case) will be built with over-the-top components based on anecdotal 'evidence' only, etc. etc.
I have stated basics (and please, not my opinion ......; kindly don't add insult to injury). I am bowing out here; although many of us here have never met and never shall, I would like to have a few friends left when I depart this life (which won't be in the too distant future). Thanks to who-ever at least read the mentioned posts. Who knows - it might even lead to a re-examination of the situation by some lonely soul or other!
Let us experience forth!
But it would be somewhat remarkable if all the previous stages in the path of the audio signal were the less critical ones, where it was "more difficult to tell the difference." It seems just a little too "convenient," that of all the capacitors in the audio path from the microphones, the ones that are really crucial happen to be the ones under the audiophile's own control, in the home stereo amplifier...
Chris
MBGT caps?
A lot of good info on Russian caps. Has anybody tried MBGT types? The last letter T stands for thermal control. These are about twice the size of other caps of the same capacitance (I'm talking specifically 20uf x 160v) and somewhat more expensive. I was going to use them in a x-over network for my horn system.
A lot of good info on Russian caps. Has anybody tried MBGT types? The last letter T stands for thermal control. These are about twice the size of other caps of the same capacitance (I'm talking specifically 20uf x 160v) and somewhat more expensive. I was going to use them in a x-over network for my horn system.
OK I read a few posts, and if I understand correctly there are two sides to this coin;
1- the audio having gone through Mic. to mixing deck, recording equipment, it must have travelled through so many average caps and amplifiers that one or two exotic caps in a home amplifier wouldn't make a difference.
2- Some caps sound better than others, some actually are terrible.
Well simple logic dictates that 1 is correct.
But as you have it life is not simple! if 1 was correct, then a $10K amplifier should not sound much different to a $500 one, for the same reason! and a 50c opamp, in a DAC should be as good as a $30 one. I wonder why manufactureres choose the exotic ones! just for hype? just to pull the wool?
I doubt that everybody is duped into this snake-oil charade, and there is no difference.
I can clearly tell a K40y-9 to a wima polyp. But I can not tell an M-cap silver/oil to the same wima!
It is not always the price of something that dictates its performance.
capacitors, opamps do sound different - however a silver mains cable with soild gold prongs is just as good as a dollar one.
Snake-oil merchants are alive and well, but not every oil is a snake-oil.
The MBG range seems to vary in its contents. The higher voltage ones seem to be plastic film, the 160v look like waxed paper to me but I don't know for sure. I find that the capacitors with a solder patch covering a filling hole are the best sounding. That includes most, but not all, of the KBG types. Don't rely on the seller's description.
Sorry to wipe the dust off this tread! But i feel it could be interesting to know if any have been comparing the MbM paper in wax alu foil types to the other, more well known, Russian caps? What are the opinions?
And also. I Have two sets of FT-3's that really fell trough. After a couple hundred hours they started to sound very grainy/distorting in my dac. They was sounding quite all right at the start, and opening more and more up, but then quite suddenly...
I replaced them with K40Y//Mundorf SGO's and got a wery transparent sound, still with the warm lush and textured sound i really love... But the FT's promissing sound before the distortion haunts me. Any knowings about that problem???
And also. I Have two sets of FT-3's that really fell trough. After a couple hundred hours they started to sound very grainy/distorting in my dac. They was sounding quite all right at the start, and opening more and more up, but then quite suddenly...
I replaced them with K40Y//Mundorf SGO's and got a wery transparent sound, still with the warm lush and textured sound i really love... But the FT's promissing sound before the distortion haunts me. Any knowings about that problem???