Hi,
Bit of an update... I've have overlayed the midrange, most the tweeter, and two sides of the bass compartment with 15mm wool fabric.
Only briefly listened, but the sound may be a bit more detailed, but the speaker does sound a bit less edgy on the top end that I found aggravating.
Also made new stands and give the speakers a new paint job. Not great but better than what it was.
I still long for bass I can feel as well as hear, but I've given up on the subwoofers, they just won't work with my room layout. I almost bought a pair of Harbeth 40.2... I've always liked their speakers but I wasn't 100% convinced they would be much better than what I got.
Bit of an update... I've have overlayed the midrange, most the tweeter, and two sides of the bass compartment with 15mm wool fabric.
Only briefly listened, but the sound may be a bit more detailed, but the speaker does sound a bit less edgy on the top end that I found aggravating.
Also made new stands and give the speakers a new paint job. Not great but better than what it was.
I still long for bass I can feel as well as hear, but I've given up on the subwoofers, they just won't work with my room layout. I almost bought a pair of Harbeth 40.2... I've always liked their speakers but I wasn't 100% convinced they would be much better than what I got.
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Did you try high-pass on speakers when adding subwoofers. I dont have subs and never heard a correct multi sub system, but in my next life I will read up on it and try.
Cheers!
Cheers!
You'll have to excuse my. Ignorance, but what do you mean by high pass on the speakers? Before when connecting the subwoofers I used the high level output from the speaker / amp terminals into the subwoofer. I haven't tried again... The subs won't fit under the new stands and I can't place them elsewhere.
Another thing I did do, was silicon around the speaker port. It was friction fitted, but was a bit loose.
Listening this evening the speakers sound a lot better. I always thought they could be a bit bright / shouty but that has gone away, they sound dry/ neutral with the bass having more punch than before.
I wish i did these adjustment 7 years ago! I final feel I'm getting the best out of the speakers.
I do like the look of Troels Faital 3WC-15 but I'm worried that the midrange won't be as good. I'm less concerned about the 15 drive unit.... I'm hoping it would work in a near field position.
Another thing I did do, was silicon around the speaker port. It was friction fitted, but was a bit loose.
Listening this evening the speakers sound a lot better. I always thought they could be a bit bright / shouty but that has gone away, they sound dry/ neutral with the bass having more punch than before.
I wish i did these adjustment 7 years ago! I final feel I'm getting the best out of the speakers.
I do like the look of Troels Faital 3WC-15 but I'm worried that the midrange won't be as good. I'm less concerned about the 15 drive unit.... I'm hoping it would work in a near field position.
Hi pass means filtering before amp so you Stereo speakers dont play deep bass, and this way "bleeding" into the subwoofers work area. So the opposite of your frecuenzy knob on an active subwoofer. Sorry Im tired and Not so clear
Cheers
Cheers
If I may suggest: get your speakers checked. Acoustic measurements at both some distance (gated) and close range (for low range and detecting internal resonances). You could do it yourself, with some relatively cheap gear (less than one AT driver) and learn as a bonus. But with such expensive kit I would rather be sure than in doubt.
I still think internal damping could be bettered, especially for the midrange. Simple pillow fiber isn’t good enough here.
I still think internal damping could be bettered, especially for the midrange. Simple pillow fiber isn’t good enough here.
You have done a number of things that are almost certainly wrong with your current speakers making it is hard to suggest anything other than fixing them first and then seeing if you want to change to something else. Your current speakers are pretty good if properly implemented and with properly setup subs will be pretty hard to improve on except it minor ways. The 3WC-15 doesn't seem to address any of the minor improvements I can see (e.g. directivity, active,...) unless you need more SPL.
If subs are not installed in a sensible manner they can be expected to perform poorly in they way your report. This is completely normal and expected as reflected in the number of posters telling you how to go about installing them correctly. Similarly you need to implement the inside of your speakers correctly as well as the outside if they are to perform as the designer intended.
Don't wish to appear overly critical (and I certainly got quite a lot wrong with my first DIY speaker so not in any position to preach) but you don't seem to be using a reasonable basis for your reasoning.
What have I done that is so wrong?
I've lined the enclosure with a 5mm rubber/plastic sound block sheet that 100% did make a positive different, and now the midrange cabinet and other parts have been overlaid with
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/29571944...ar=593897181148&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
I've made sure the ports are now properly sealed... What else can I do?
I've lined the enclosure with a 5mm rubber/plastic sound block sheet that 100% did make a positive different, and now the midrange cabinet and other parts have been overlaid with
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/29571944...ar=593897181148&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
I've made sure the ports are now properly sealed... What else can I do?
Put rockwool, , Metisse cotton fiber or this foam in the mid enclosure, and fill it up to the back of the magnet.
If you want to check your system and have no intentions to develop loudspeakers, get an USB measuring microphone like the miniDSP Umik-1 plus a stand, get REW on your PC and find some way to connect your sound card to your amp. This gear also enables you to optimize your room setup and you could think of equalizing bass response with a DSP solution.
If you want to check your system and have no intentions to develop loudspeakers, get an USB measuring microphone like the miniDSP Umik-1 plus a stand, get REW on your PC and find some way to connect your sound card to your amp. This gear also enables you to optimize your room setup and you could think of equalizing bass response with a DSP solution.
Could i place that foam in the tweeter compartment too?
I've got some dense rock wool sheets, I could try using them?
I'll looking into the usb microphone suggested, just need to find out how to connect the pc to the amp, as I don't have a sound card, just what was on the motherboard
I've got some dense rock wool sheets, I could try using them?
I'll looking into the usb microphone suggested, just need to find out how to connect the pc to the amp, as I don't have a sound card, just what was on the motherboard
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Well, I've put then rock wool sheet into the mid cabinet and the tweeter.... It has calm the sound a bit, maybe a bit more detailed / controlled.
I tried it, with and without being in the tweeter compartment and preferred it with it in there.... Without it the speakers sounded a bit bright...
I'm going to leave it now and live with it for a while. A&B testing is a bit tiring and without measuring equipment, I don't really know what I'm doing.
To put things into perspectives the speaker does sound good and better than what they were before.
I tried it, with and without being in the tweeter compartment and preferred it with it in there.... Without it the speakers sounded a bit bright...
I'm going to leave it now and live with it for a while. A&B testing is a bit tiring and without measuring equipment, I don't really know what I'm doing.
To put things into perspectives the speaker does sound good and better than what they were before.
The speaker requires effective absorption for:
- the main cabinet resonances (air) with frequencies that lie in the range where the woofer has significant output
- the midrange cabinet resonances (air) with frequencies that lie in the range where the midrange has significant output
- between the port and woofer to block higher frequency going out the port
- the cabinet modes (mdf)
The rubber sound block sheets will do little to damp the structure because the damping forces generated by the small extensional deflections of the cabinet will be too small. It won't damp the air cavity because it will reflect almost all sound. It won't do any harm just not much good. In truth typical cabinet resonances are not particularly intrusive and damping them effectively tends to require some design effort and understanding.
Sticking woolly stuff to the walls won't damp the structure because the walls won't move it. It will provide a tiny bit of damping of sound in the air cavity but not much because it is in the wrong place next to the walls where the particle velocity is zero and may be a bit too dense reflecting sound. What is required is fairly light absorbing placed near the middle of the main enclosure to absorb the cavity resonances and between the port and the woofer. Don't get close to the port because a slug of air needs to be free to enter and exit. Ported cabinets don't require large amounts of stuffing like a sealed cabinet but they do require some to reduce resonances in relatively large cabinets and to block high frequency sound short circuiting out the port.
As others have said the midrange enclosure needs to be filled with light but acoustically effective stuffing making sure to keep away from driver.
Noted. Everything you said make sense...the soundbock sheet did make a positive difference to them speaker...it just helped it sound quieter, if that makes any sense, as if less sound was leaking through them cabinet.
Just to clarify, I am using the acoustilux materials that came with the kit too. They are within the bass enclosure covering the crossovers.
Just to clarify, I am using the acoustilux materials that came with the kit too. They are within the bass enclosure covering the crossovers.
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Damping a mid enclosure in a good way sometimes leads to first listening impressions like ‘hey, I’m missing somethin’. And that’s right. You take away what isn’t supposed to be there, however ‘enriching’ it was. Speakers shouldn’t add something of their own, eh?
Anyway, that Acoustilux stuff looks like bonded acetate fiber to me. That stuff does something, but not enough, With 11kg per cubic meter it isn’t dense enough. The fibers also aren’t optimal for acoustic use. You see it often though, because it’s cheap. But you need layers up to half a meter thick to get that working.
Anyway, that Acoustilux stuff looks like bonded acetate fiber to me. That stuff does something, but not enough, With 11kg per cubic meter it isn’t dense enough. The fibers also aren’t optimal for acoustic use. You see it often though, because it’s cheap. But you need layers up to half a meter thick to get that working.
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http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/AT-3WC.htm
Troels damping instructions are near the bottom, he also says to make sure the mid is wired with inverted polarity.
"Cover with two layers of acoustilux.
Make sure the mid-driver is connected with inverted polarity!"
Troels damping instructions are near the bottom, he also says to make sure the mid is wired with inverted polarity.
"Cover with two layers of acoustilux.
Make sure the mid-driver is connected with inverted polarity!"
It's okay in the tweeter and mid compartments, but I'm not sure about using it in the bass cabinet... It's just a messy material...
I still have loads of that wool fabric... Is there anything front with putting sheets of that in, on top of the acoustilux material, or is it just not up for the job...
Troels suggested me TL3 over 3WC-15, go for copper foil capacitor version it's more than 1% difference as Troels talked (I upgraded mine later with miflex).
Fusion amp is very flexible, you can easily tune based on room. With active woofer, 2A3 single end can drive it loud.
TL3 is not bright all all, it has design with attenuator.
Fusion amp is very flexible, you can easily tune based on room. With active woofer, 2A3 single end can drive it loud.
TL3 is not bright all all, it has design with attenuator.
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Thanks for the heads up.... My only concern about the TL3, is the complexity of the build, but if I were going to have the panels cut to size for me, I suppose it doesn't matter.
I suppose another advantage of TL3 is the ability to tune the bass.
It's just a wish list atm, but I'll look into it.
I suppose another advantage of TL3 is the ability to tune the bass.
It's just a wish list atm, but I'll look into it.
Tbh, Troels‘ damping instructions don’t impress me. He never posts high res frequency responses or burst decays that tell you if a system is damped well enough. Along with the missing directivity plots his documentation isn’t complete, I’d say. And from what I see, I don’t think his designs are on a par with those from others, like quite a few people occasionally dropping by here.