“Aristotle taught that all the stars and planets were mounted on invisible crystal spheres that moved around the Earth. Where they touched, they made music no human ears could hear.”
Listening tests versus lab instrument tests, a debate that will go on forever.
Listener advocates just don't have any idea of the accuracy of high end lab equipments. About audio, it is far better than any so called golden ears.
There is no such a thing as something one can ear and cannot be measured, apart from placebo effect and unreproducible effects.
Nowdays all and every corectly designed amplifier sound the same. Serious blind testing proved so. The differences are in the speaker, the room, the recording, the mastering not the amplifier.
Few people are aware that at mastering they fake the audio to give the sound that the public likes best. A sort of augmented reality.
Listener advocates just don't have any idea of the accuracy of high end lab equipments. About audio, it is far better than any so called golden ears.
There is no such a thing as something one can ear and cannot be measured, apart from placebo effect and unreproducible effects.
Nowdays all and every corectly designed amplifier sound the same. Serious blind testing proved so. The differences are in the speaker, the room, the recording, the mastering not the amplifier.
Few people are aware that at mastering they fake the audio to give the sound that the public likes best. A sort of augmented reality.
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Curious. I assume you don't like the sound of larger values. Do you have an explanation for this?
No is not working as before because needs electrons to function .also you need food and water to function and yet from food and water you have emotions .
Stop drinking and eating and in a few days your emotions will disappear .
Allow me to introduce some physics. I hope you realise that, although we often talk about alternating current flowing 'through' a capacitor, it actually doesn't!
The electrons do not pass through the capacitor, but simply oscillate on either side of the capacitor plates.
As the electrons flow on and off the capacitor plates, voltages build up across the plates. These 'back EMFs' oppose the alternating current in the circuit.
A capacitor controls the flow of electrons in the circuit because of this opposition, which is called reactance and is measured in ohms.
[My PC will not accept a direct quote at present; not that I blame it .... 
]
Robert 2017,
Pardon OT: A kind request that you try treat members with some more respect and fewer assumptions than shown in your post #32:
At the risk of revealing a confidentiality here : The person you refer to actually has a Ph.D. Want to reconsider your accusation somewhat??
Regarding what can be measured: Human hearing has been tested and 'modelled' extensively over many decades now (that least of all in the interest of hi-fi; rather to use acousto-physical information in aid of relief for the hearing-impaired. Reams of information exist: Internet etc.)
Subsequently, audio electronic measurement instrumentation has existed for - oh, a few decades at least - which is comfortably able to measure/analyse audio performance to, at present, an order of magnitude better than even the best 'golden ear' is capable of detecting. (This includes analyses of the physiology of the hearing mechanism, through the eighth nerve and into the brain.)
Although most has been said, I will add my little bit on what is what regarding capacitors in audio after some sleep. (See time of day or rather night!)
.... or cancel my varsity training and re-apply for education in a parallel universe somewhere - if such has the dimension of time ....
]Robert 2017,
Pardon OT: A kind request that you try treat members with some more respect and fewer assumptions than shown in your post #32:
At the risk of revealing a confidentiality here : The person you refer to actually has a Ph.D. Want to reconsider your accusation somewhat??
Regarding what can be measured: Human hearing has been tested and 'modelled' extensively over many decades now (that least of all in the interest of hi-fi; rather to use acousto-physical information in aid of relief for the hearing-impaired. Reams of information exist: Internet etc.)
Subsequently, audio electronic measurement instrumentation has existed for - oh, a few decades at least - which is comfortably able to measure/analyse audio performance to, at present, an order of magnitude better than even the best 'golden ear' is capable of detecting. (This includes analyses of the physiology of the hearing mechanism, through the eighth nerve and into the brain.)
Although most has been said, I will add my little bit on what is what regarding capacitors in audio after some sleep. (See time of day or rather night!)
.... or cancel my varsity training and re-apply for education in a parallel universe somewhere - if such has the dimension of time ....
Just a bit of info on the O.P.:
They have started the same thread and argued the same point on another forum. There is no convincing their assumptions are incorrect and not based in reality. You can explain electronics theory in even the most simplistic manner and they ignore it. Initially seems curious and open to new information, but spirals into a nonsensical rant. Whether this is due to not being told what they want to hear or they suffer from a narcissistic disorder (posts becoming less and less intelligible is a sign) it doesn't matter. You're wasting your time trying to communicate with them.
This is by no means meant to be a personal attack or to accuse them of misusing these forums. They obviously believe: Their theories are fact, none of us understand what they are saying and we don't know what's important when it comes to audio electronics.
When I mentioned " electrons pass through the capacitor" I WAS REFERING that they interact with the capacitor construction !!.But it seems that you want to reduce the whole concept to some simple basic old theory .
In your opinion audio caps are just marketing ?
Capacitors pass alternating current because they are electrostatic devices. The dielectric prevents D.C. current flow from one plate to the other. Since A.C. swings from a point above 0 Volts to a point below over and over again, we have a charge-discharge cycle going on internally. The capacitors charge is maintained by an electrostatic field surrounding the plates and as that field strength increases and decreases so does the voltage on the plates.
In the same way transformers have no physical connection between the primary and secondary. Transformers are electromagnetic devices and use the principal of induction.
Most "audio" electrolytic caps either have paper impregnated with graphite (Black Gate), made with silk fiber (Silmic) or are mechanically damped (KZ). They function exactly like any other electrolytic capacitor. No empirical evedence has ever demonstrated they "sound better" since they are passive components and can not introduce harmonic or other disortion mechanisms associated with lower fidelity. These have been established for many years, not only through lab tests, but also with listening tests.
What does that mean?
The point is that you were caught red handed posting ignorance of basic Electronics and rather than acknowledge it, you try to sidestep your own statement.
Basic old? So what?
That is irrelevant, the point is whether such theory properly explains Reality or not.
Theories/Physics Laws we refer to are well proven, tested by millions, and give consistent results, while your pet theory is only backed by yourself.
As a side note/example: Ohm´s Law was formulated in 1827 , and is as basic as can be ... do you say it does not apply any more because it´s "basic and old?"
It certainly meets your disqualifying statements ... not that they hold much water in any case
Yes.
Hi Ed,
-Chris
I'm sorry, but I am missing your point. Power is delivered from the amplifier. I guess we can use the term, generated. Okay, no problem. The power generated in the amplifier is delivered and dissipated in the speaker. So far, so good. From my understanding, power does not flow. It is either generated or dissipated. I did say that it was current flowing I think. I do know I did not use the term "power" or that it flows. I think I used the term "energy" actually. Was this a misunderstanding and we are both trying to say the same thing?
-Chris
Hi mchambin,
-Chris
It's not an either or situation though. All good technicians and designers not only trust their instrumentation, but they also listen to the equipment (which I am doing right now). On the other hand, those that have "golden ears" only listen. They often do not have test equipment, or test equipment good enough for the task at hand. From that perspective I can see where they would assume that what they hear cannot be measured. Too bad they can't afford the time and money needed to gain a more complete picture of what is really going on.
-Chris
Electrons pass thru the capacitor......Well.
Yes and No.
No, they do not jump from one plate to the other.
Yes, there are electons going in or out ( current ) of the terminals.
Mind boggling, isn'it !
Let's charge a high voltage cap ( I have a nice Whimshurst machine for that ), then give it in the hands of somebody....He will get a beafy electric shock. Current flew from the cap into his hands, however no electron flew from one plate to the other in the capacitor ( a Leyd bottle ).
This is how I welcome Jehovah's Witnesses when knocking at my door.
What's going on is more or less electrons at the plates and an electric field in between.
To dig in this topic of electrostatic, have a look here: Electrostatic induction - Wikipedia
Yes and No.
No, they do not jump from one plate to the other.
Yes, there are electons going in or out ( current ) of the terminals.
Mind boggling, isn'it !
Let's charge a high voltage cap ( I have a nice Whimshurst machine for that ), then give it in the hands of somebody....He will get a beafy electric shock. Current flew from the cap into his hands, however no electron flew from one plate to the other in the capacitor ( a Leyd bottle ).
This is how I welcome Jehovah's Witnesses when knocking at my door.
What's going on is more or less electrons at the plates and an electric field in between.
To dig in this topic of electrostatic, have a look here: Electrostatic induction - Wikipedia
I simply don't trust my not so golden ears so I trust measurements.
Or i listen to music and don't care much about sound quality...( unless it is as bad as in my car where the speakers rattle real bad even at low volume ).
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They are not passive components as you may think and yes THEY INTRODUCE harmonic or other disortion mechanisms associated with lower or higher fidelity.
In order to proof for your self you just need 2 identical amps . You fill an amp with cheap small china caps that are functional and measure good. And you fill the other amp with audio caps . After that you can do blind tests switching from A to B and also your friends can participate.
Also keep in mind that audio caps need time to break in
If you have good ears you will be astounded...but some have hearing problems because are to old or is biological
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What does that mean?
The point is that you were caught red handed posting ignorance of basic Electronics and rather than acknowledge it, you try to sidestep your own statement.
Basic old? So what?
That is irrelevant, the point is whether such theory properly explains Reality or not.
Theories/Physics Laws we refer to are well proven, tested by millions, and give consistent results, while your pet theory is only backed by yourself.
As a side note/example: Ohm´s Law was formulated in 1827 , and is as basic as can be ... do you say it does not apply any more because it´s "basic and old?"
It certainly meets your disqualifying statements ... not that they hold much water in any case
Yes.
how old are you ?On this forums I see a lot of guys acting the exact way !. They say audio caps is just marketing hoax and they use classical old lows I presume learned in 80s.
I must conclude that 90% of those guys are over 55 years old.
At that age your hearing is very restricted so probably you won't hear any difference because is your biology that is blurring the reality
Has anyone in this thread recommended using electrolytics in speaker crossovers?robert2017 said:
Boot. Foot. Other.
Again, has anyone said that in this thread?
Some people don't understand the concept of signal path. So what? Has anyone in this thread said that shunt components are not in the signal path? Why are you erecting so many false targets? Why not address what we say, instead of criticising what we have not said?
We are not frightened of maths here, so feel free to show us the equations. You will find that a bypass cap is almost always unnecessary, and sometimes harmful.
Who has said in this thread that all caps are the same?
When someone disagrees with you do you always accuse him of telling lies? Not a very helpful debating method.
Galu's statement was correct: a capacitor stores electrical energy. The physics does not distinguish between musical 'energy' and any other sort of 'energy'.robert2017 said:
Not really. They don't travel "through" all components, they just jiggle around. They are not "bringing out music" but merely amplifying a voltage analogue signal which happens to be conveying what we call music.
This is the point I was making: how a cap behaves depends on how it is used in the circuit.traderbam said:
There is perhaps a difficulty with definition here. If capacitance is changing significantly with voltage (as for some ceramic caps) then it could be argued that the capacitor does not have 'a capacitance' so it cannot have double the capacitance either. You could look at average capacitance over the AC cycle.Galu said:
Capacitors, resistors and transformers are passive components. This is a matter of definition, not open to personal interpretation. They are not ideal, but that is a different concept. It is difficult to have a meaningful discussion with someone who wants to use private meanings of words.robert2017 said:
Ah, the 'you are deaf' accusation was bound to appear. We now wait for 'you are poor'.
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