Another option are polymer electrolytics for longer life.
Why Use Aluminum Polymer Capacitors? | Wurth Electronics Midcom
Conductive Polymer Electrolytic Capacitors | Industrial Devices & Solutions | Panasonic
Why Use Aluminum Polymer Capacitors? | Wurth Electronics Midcom
Conductive Polymer Electrolytic Capacitors | Industrial Devices & Solutions | Panasonic
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Curious about those mystery parameters which can´t be shown in datasheets nor be used in Math calculations.
Or explained by Physics.
Any change in capacitance due to standing voltage will take a few months or years to take place as the oxide layer adjusts itself.Bfpca said:
There can be no such thing as an 'audio' capacitor because there is no such thing as an 'audio' use of a capacitor. Capacitors acts as reservoirs, couplers, decouplers, filters etc. (not 'audio') and do not know and cannot care whether the lowish frequency signal they may see is audio, low-rate signalling or anything else. The qualities you might want in one capacitor position in an audio circuit could be opposite to those in a different position in the same circuit. Sometimes you want low ESR, sometimes high ESR, sometimes low leakage, occasionally low distortion (actually quite rarely needed), sometimes tighter capacitance tolerance etc.
There is no audible symptom that cannot be explained by physics IMO. You might be surprised at how many "unexplained" audible problems are actually quite simple physical issues that have been overlooked. Capacitors have more characteristics, inside the realm of physics, than data sheets specify. It is usually desired by manufacturers to specify as little as their mainstream customers need to know.
I've been messing about with electronics since the 1960s, and can say that the perceived wisdom then was always to replace a capacitor with one of the same voltage rating or, if necessary, with one of a slightly higher rating. This was said to ensure that the aluminium oxide dielectric layer was maintained by electrochemical action. I see no good reason to abandon the perceived wisdom of my youth!
The data sheets are just for general use regarding the mainstream daily customers and that is all that the general consumers need to know.
That data have little to do with audio world. For example you can see that audio caps are a lot bigger and are filled and treated in order for the internal layers to not vibrate and move internally because of the sound waves this resulting in less distortion in the signal .
Also the sound is generated by electrons which are subatomic particles that are traveling thru wires . The electrons will act in a more precise or let's say clean dynamic way inside the audio caps compared to a regular caps this resulting in a different sound.
10% of the rated voltage is the minimum an electrolytic capacitor should see in use, as far as I can recall. I would have to check but as I recall the larger size same value electrolytic capacitors were less sensitive to vibration modulation of the signal.
For film capacitors higher voltage rating only has a size penalty, but there are performance benefits.
For film capacitors higher voltage rating only has a size penalty, but there are performance benefits.
Not surprising since they go backwards in Technology so use, say, .1 mm oil impregnated paper and .1 mm aluminum/copper/brass/gold/silver/platinum/unobtanium instead of , say, 100 microns polyester/polpropylene/teflon/etc. + 20 microns deposited aluminum ... I wonder why they are not even bulkier.
But ... do they perform better? .... very much doubt it unless accompanied by measurable and repeatable proof.
That said, a dynamite stick sized cap certainly "justifies" an outrageous price, even if for inferior performance components.
Or same performance at best.
Onl dielectric where those resulta are found is very cheap (and often abused, measured way over specs th , precisely, "prove" that point) ceramics.
Not a point on any decent, commercially made by the Millions modern "plastic" cap.
Unproven assertion.
If capacitors "physically vibrated" under applied signal that would be *easy* to prove/measure/chart and would show as gross intermodulation distortion.
As in: 10V RMS @60Hz would strongly (measurably) modulate a simultaneous 1V RMS 5kHz or 10kHz tone .... similar to classic IM distortion test.
Where are those test results shown?
Any link?
True.
Nonsense/wishful thinking/article of Faith.
Even if we forget that "more precise" and even worse, "more dynamic" are undefined, and mean different things to different people, as subjective as can be.
With due respect, it sounds like Audio shop salesman babble to un-Tech-savvy customers trying to spend some money.
I don't understand on what assertions your disbeliefs are based .
Of course that all this can be proved using scientific measurement and theory but is not something that the masses need to hear or want to hear because the HIFI audio marketing is very particular . Caps are made for the general masses and are everywhere in all kind of devices . So they publish data and specs for the general consumer and not for the 1% that goes in amps.
When they vibrate is not necessarily a distortion but an inbalance or incoherence . You can open an amplifier and to put something that vibrates inside the amp and this will mess the sound . I already did this experiment .
I have this theory .If the music is generated by electrons means that a huge number of electrons are traveling to the speakers but before that the signal need to enter inside the amp . When the signal entersinside the amp , there will be a restricted number of electrons because the signal is small so the amp will take those electrons and will amplify the number of electrons in order to amplify the signal thru the speakers .
Also because the HIFI amps use huge PSU caps of at least 10000uf for each channel means that the amp will take the signal and will generate or re-align more electrons to amplify the original signal .
So we're speaking about the amp taking the signal in which is electrons and to generate more electrons which is music you hear so the electrons will move in a certain way .
So you will have the signal in, the electrons amplified mass and the electrons movement or let's say "rithm" inside the amp .If you disconnect the speakers in some amps you can hear the music inside the amp components at a very low pitch signal if you crank the volume !.Basically you hear the electrons dancing inside the components !.
So because there is an amplified mass of electrons and the electrons movement or let's say "rithm" inside the amp the electrons will pass thru caps and the caps will be the gates . The best caps ever are called Black Gates for a very good reason . They knew about this ...
So if the caps are to small or made with bad materials the electrons won't have enough room to dance so they will enter intercollision and will come to the amp transistors sounding like the crap caps resulting in a crap signal .
So the music plays inside the amp before you hear the signal inside the speakers .
You can think that the amp capacitors are the amp internal speakers and the usual speakers are the amp external speakers . We all know that not all tweeters are the same and not all woffers or mid driver speakers are the same ...so the same with the caps because the music already plays inside the amp before comes out thru the outside speakers .
Maybe some will think I'm delusional but is more delusional to not understand the depth of the signal and what signal is and to think that all caps are the same and that won't make a difference . This is the pure non sense and pure ignorance that is neglecting the reality .
"""""""Yea all tweeters ar the same !! there is no difference between aluminium and silk tweeters !!. Also a 5$ tweeter will sound like a 500$ one . """"""
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You have clearly been reading marketing material for 'audio' capacitors.robert2017 said:
Some of the more expensive 'audio' caps are handmade, which means they will be markedly inferior to normal machine made caps. Some others are simply re-marked ordinary caps. Curiously, inferior (but expensive) caps and identical (but expensive) caps always seem to sound better then normal caps - but generally only when the listener knows they are being used.
Can I suggest you find and read a book about physics and electricity? Then find a book about electronics.
I can't comment on your mental state, but I can be sure that your knowledge of the relevant science is hopelessly inadequate to comment meaningfully on audio electronics.
Using completely irrelevant analogies is usually a sign of losing the argument.
robert2017,
your assumption is correct. A small charge to volume ratio means low distortion and wide frequency response as these are inversely related. A more dense material is more dispersive. This is not marketing, but fundamental physics and implies all materials such as semiconductors, resistors, tweeters, whatever.
I also avoid low ESR capacitors.
your assumption is correct. A small charge to volume ratio means low distortion and wide frequency response as these are inversely related. A more dense material is more dispersive. This is not marketing, but fundamental physics and implies all materials such as semiconductors, resistors, tweeters, whatever.
I also avoid low ESR capacitors.
I can hear clear difference in blind tests between caps because I have a well treated room and very hi end speakers . If you use electrolytics in the speakers crossovers you will never ever hear a difference by changing caps inside amps.
People like you have little knowledge about haw amp actually work . Do you think that the music is produced by transistors and that the caps have nothing to do with musical signal because they deliver just some electric current defined in a few parameters .
Also you think that even if the caps have something to do with the direct signal there won't be a difference between different caps if those are on the usual specs .
For example the power supply caps will have an effect on the final sound output out of the speakers in kind of an indirect way as they are not actually in the signal path.
Here is a way to think of it.
In the signal path/part of the signal path.
The picture below shows a very basic tone control circuit. Notice the .01 microfarad capacitor in the bass control part of the circuit. There are those that would say that it is not part of the signal path because it is connected to ground (one should think in terms of return rather than ground as I will discuss later). However, changing the value of the value of the capacitor will change the characteristics of the bass portion of the tone control. Remove it and there is no bass control.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
It is clear that it is part of the signal path. It modifies the signal, it has an impact on the signal.
Now, just as a thought experiment, let us say that the input to this circuit is the output of the diodes in a power supply. The bass part of this tone control circuit looks surprisingly like part of the power supply in our amplifier.
The 33 K Ohm resistor represents the impedance of the transformer/diodes, although it would be much smaller. The potentiometer represents the load, it would be much smaller, and we have the capacitor, which would be much larger.
In its application in the tone control circuit, the capacitor stores and releases energy, it is a low pass filter. In its application in a power supply it stores and releases energy, it is a low pass filter on the input side. On the output side, it still needs to present a low impedance to higher audio frequencies. Just as an example, if the impedance of the filter capacitor was to go up to 10 Ohms (not very likely) at higher audio frequencies (but still remain low at power supply frequencies), that would impact the audio quality. An inductor on the output side of the filter capacitor could represent this. Alternatively, internal series inductance in the capacitor.
There are those that will point out that the input to the tone control is the audio signal, but the input in a power supply is from the diodes. This is true.
Connected to ground...
It is not uncommon for some on AK to speak about a signal that goes to ground as if it just stops at that physical point in the circuit. It is not uncommon during the discussion of interconnects (I know off topic) for some to say that with a shielded cable with a single center conductor the center conductor carries the signal and the shield is just the ground and does not carry any signal.
Neither is correct. It is all about a complete circuit including the return. The return carries signals and power.
In terms of the tone control and power supply examples, remember that we need a compete circuit for these to work. The part that completes the circuit is called the return. In these examples, the capacitor is part of the return circuit whether it is in the tone control or the power supply. In a power supply, the return completes the audio path. If we remove the filter capacitor, then the return is through the diodes (remember we need a complete circuit) and we have big ripple at the power supply frequency.
If the capacitor is too small for the application, then at higher current (amplifier power levels) the return starts to move from the capacitor to the diodes (this completes the circuit to the diodes and they become a branch part of the complete circuit on the output side), increasing the ripple.
There are two complete circuits here. First the power transformer secondary/diodes and the filter capacitor. Second, the filter capacitor and the speakers. There are other internal bits in the amplifier, but this keeps it simple for this discussion.
There is math to explain this, although it may not be commonly used when describing the operation of a power supply. This does not change the fact that we want pure DC from our power supply it just explains what happens.
When adding a small bypass capacitor to a large filter capacitor, it becomes part of the return and its contribution can be defined mathematically. No two power supply/amplifier combinations will function exactly the same. The contribution of the small capacitor may be vanishingly small or it my be more.
In some situations the addition of a small capacitor may degrade the power supply for a number of technical reasons resulting in additional noise/ringing in the power supply.
In very highly technical and complicated terms (sorry I would like to make it simple), it comes down to where the current comes from, where it goes and how it gets back home.
Of course that is fundamental physics but is just bugging my head when I see the same non sense repeated over and over again that "all caps are the same " "is just marketing" "you should read some books" "you should learn about this and that " .
I don't understand why someone will like to lie and deceive him self into false beliefs ?.
You haven't been in DiyAudio for long. You'll get used to this. Actually, you probably won't. 
Usually I combine Silmic 2 with Nichicon KZ and Elna Cerafines .
I never use Silmic 2 above 47 uf threshold.
Usually I add the Cerafines because KZs sound to clean and transparent so Cerafines add a little "nice nastiness" . Silmic 2 gives a special high freq pitch but are sloppy in bass region .
Until now for power supply and preamp and power amp section main caps I used all those 4 : Nichicon Super Through ,Black Gates, Cerafine and KZs
Hi robert2017,
Like many others here, I have extensive experience (over 40 years) in servicing audio amplifiers and improving their performance. A good quality capacitor will always work better than a poor quality one. This would translate to better sound that is measurable. However, it is usually other capacitors and the matching of transistors that produce the greatest benefits for improving the sound quality of an audio device.
Luckily, I have equipment now that can measure better than you can hear. I do have audiophile friends who can hear the differences that are made, but they are also very susceptible to something called confirmation bias.
Now, as for your original question. The use of higher voltage capacitors is beneficial for two reasons. Better dielectric and the larger size has a greater chance of fitting the holes for the old ones. If you're really crafty, you will measure the lead distance and order one that is close or the same. Then the higher voltage capacitor fits in properly. When installing a capacitor that is smaller, you must hold the lead near the capacitor body where it comes out of the seal (HINT!) and bend the leads so that they don't distort the seal (HINT #2). Just spreading them is a great way to ruin the seal, if not now then maybe in the future as the rubber is stretched and compressed.
As long as you don't do silly things like use a 450 VDC capacitor to replace one rated for 15 VDC or less, you should be fine. Just use your judgement and use capacitors that fit the holes. The capacitor will not be damaged, and reusing them wouldn't be wise anyhow. Just buy new ones. As a rule of thumb, try not to use any electrolytic capacitor that is rated at less then 15 VDC as they aren't as reliable from my experience.
When looking at old tube equipment, the low voltage section of a can filter capacitor is often the first to go. You must replace the entire capacitor. No, you cannot solder a new capacitor across the defective section. Besides, the other sections may fail soon.
As for your beliefs, they aren't hurting anyone but your pocket book. Try not to involve others (customers) in that as you are wasting their money. You owe it to them to install good components (not bought off Eeekbay). The capacitor type is more important than the brand. This is especially true of film capacitors where the audiophool approved types are much larger and do not fit the board properly. If the part is too large (including lead diameter) do not use it! Save those for a new build if you must use them somewhere. I repair several units a year abused by parts too large being installed. Some of them are a write-off. Don't be a hacker, please.
-Chris
Like many others here, I have extensive experience (over 40 years) in servicing audio amplifiers and improving their performance. A good quality capacitor will always work better than a poor quality one. This would translate to better sound that is measurable. However, it is usually other capacitors and the matching of transistors that produce the greatest benefits for improving the sound quality of an audio device.
Luckily, I have equipment now that can measure better than you can hear. I do have audiophile friends who can hear the differences that are made, but they are also very susceptible to something called confirmation bias.
Now, as for your original question. The use of higher voltage capacitors is beneficial for two reasons. Better dielectric and the larger size has a greater chance of fitting the holes for the old ones. If you're really crafty, you will measure the lead distance and order one that is close or the same. Then the higher voltage capacitor fits in properly. When installing a capacitor that is smaller, you must hold the lead near the capacitor body where it comes out of the seal (HINT!) and bend the leads so that they don't distort the seal (HINT #2). Just spreading them is a great way to ruin the seal, if not now then maybe in the future as the rubber is stretched and compressed.
As long as you don't do silly things like use a 450 VDC capacitor to replace one rated for 15 VDC or less, you should be fine. Just use your judgement and use capacitors that fit the holes. The capacitor will not be damaged, and reusing them wouldn't be wise anyhow. Just buy new ones. As a rule of thumb, try not to use any electrolytic capacitor that is rated at less then 15 VDC as they aren't as reliable from my experience.
When looking at old tube equipment, the low voltage section of a can filter capacitor is often the first to go. You must replace the entire capacitor. No, you cannot solder a new capacitor across the defective section. Besides, the other sections may fail soon.
As for your beliefs, they aren't hurting anyone but your pocket book. Try not to involve others (customers) in that as you are wasting their money. You owe it to them to install good components (not bought off Eeekbay). The capacitor type is more important than the brand. This is especially true of film capacitors where the audiophool approved types are much larger and do not fit the board properly. If the part is too large (including lead diameter) do not use it! Save those for a new build if you must use them somewhere. I repair several units a year abused by parts too large being installed. Some of them are a write-off. Don't be a hacker, please.
-Chris
I never thought that not managing the leads properly can mess the seal that is surrounding the leads.
Regarding "equipment that can measure better than you can hear" I don't think is possible . Maybe will measure parameters above 20khz or under 15Hz beyond human hearing but between 20HZ and 18000kHZ the human ears surpass any device . The music that you are hearing is produced by your ears. Inside the ear there are middle ear, inner ear, cochlea and different tubes so the ear act like a organic musical instrument and after the music is re-produced by the ear it is send thru the auditory nerves and the brain receives different signals .So the music needs to be reproduced or re-aranged by ear in order to hear so basically there are two songs the one that comes from speakers and the one that is copied and reproduced by the ear. An equipment will measure some particular parameters but won't hear or feel the music which is all parameters at the same time.
i never have to clean waxy build up from my measurement mic and it never gets a cold and loses high frequency sensitivity.
i'm a little agnostic on the belief that human hearing is so superior to instrumentation but will allow that not all perceptual phenomenon is measurable by current standards
i'm a little agnostic on the belief that human hearing is so superior to instrumentation but will allow that not all perceptual phenomenon is measurable by current standards
A capacitor simply stores electrical energy in the electric field between its plates.
There's no magic involved, although I will concede that some capacitors may do the job better than others!
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