When recording a kick drum the SPL can be 130 dB+, "road rumble" is so far down (like -40 db with a stupid loud "road warrior" doing a drive by) that leakage is not a concern if recording has been done with any thought.
OOps- forgot that many recordings no longer require any thought.
Happy Helloween!
Cheers,
Art
In both of these cases it is intentional. I was curious too of the same with the first recording I mentioned, so, in a bored moment, I messed around with it a bit in some software and sped it up. That low material is a sample of the higher frequency content slowed down significantly to repeat only twice over the entire length of the track.
As for the other track, on the spectrogram it doesn't look like road/HVAC rumble or a door slammed in the studio somewhere and even using the Musical Spectrum plug-in for foobar when set to show down to 4Hz it's quite clear it's synced to the drum. It's a nice change from the usual second-order (or third order) high pass at 30Hz that shows up in a lot of older recordings. Helps with the illusion of sounding like a real drum vs. listening to a recording, too, even if my sub amp gets a bit taxed by it.
It's strange how it is sometimes with this low stuff. You get so used to not having it that it takes awhile to adjust to recordings that do have it. Then going back to those that have been heavily filtered and it's like listening to speakers without the tweeters connected. Sure, it still sounds like music and most of the sound is there, but life is full spectrum and the sounds of the living body are way down low. Without it, the illusion is broken and you go from an almost live performance and hearing a ghost in your room to being left with no doubt that you're just listening to a fancy boombox. It's no wonder you end up with the strange sort who, well, look at their music on spectrograms to suss out what's what.
Which confirms the Canadian gentleman’s point about this forum being isolated
Try the drop in Kendrick Lemar’s Bitch Don’t Kill My Vibe. I can name a few other crazy tracks too
That’s incorrect. It’s genre specific. Hip hop, trap DnB and dubstep (GitchMob Bassnectar, Mefjus, Kendrick Lemar) all have sub bass that touches 30hz and must be played with authority not as a atmospheric after thought. The reason why folks listen to that music at 130db is because of the physical sensation not because of hearing per se. Why Bassnectar had Meyer Sound LEO subs spreed 48 across at the Civic Center in San Francisco
Sorry for commenting on an old thread. Just saw this and felt I had to reply
Yep. Also the physical size of the thing limits gain from the output. Pattern would be omnidirectional and falloff greatly with distance. It would be more directional if your sounding board was 40’ wide but that impractical for a piano
An interesting discussion in many ways. Leaving aside the essentially computer synthesized stuff for a moment, There are really two separate questions (1) what is the ideal extension to most faithfully reproduce the music and (2) what can one practically get away with and still enjoy the sensation of the music.
Regarding the first question my view has always been -in round numbers- pop, rock, jazz etc 40Hz, Classical 30Hz, Pipe organ or VPO (Virtual Pipe Organ) 15Hz. Synthetic music is another matter and virtually any frequency may be generated in such cases so 15Hz or even lower may be needed for ideal production (reproduction being technically impossible for this case as there is no actual event to reproduce).
As to the second question of what can we get away with even a strong response to 50Hz may be enough since our minds are pretty adept at supplying missing or subdued fundamentals from harmonic cues. In fact I have often thoroughly enjoyed listening to pipe organ music on systems that barely got to 40Hz (financial and logistical realities do come into play).
We also usually have the benefit of room gain which can help make less than ideal loudspeakers at least acceptable in the extension department. I also generally prefer a more gradual rolloff if extension must be limited. I would rather have a 12dB/8va rolloff starting at 60Hz than a 24dB/8va rolloff starting at say 45Hz.
YMMV and there are always exceptions.
Regarding the first question my view has always been -in round numbers- pop, rock, jazz etc 40Hz, Classical 30Hz, Pipe organ or VPO (Virtual Pipe Organ) 15Hz. Synthetic music is another matter and virtually any frequency may be generated in such cases so 15Hz or even lower may be needed for ideal production (reproduction being technically impossible for this case as there is no actual event to reproduce).
As to the second question of what can we get away with even a strong response to 50Hz may be enough since our minds are pretty adept at supplying missing or subdued fundamentals from harmonic cues. In fact I have often thoroughly enjoyed listening to pipe organ music on systems that barely got to 40Hz (financial and logistical realities do come into play).
We also usually have the benefit of room gain which can help make less than ideal loudspeakers at least acceptable in the extension department. I also generally prefer a more gradual rolloff if extension must be limited. I would rather have a 12dB/8va rolloff starting at 60Hz than a 24dB/8va rolloff starting at say 45Hz.
YMMV and there are always exceptions.
I have recently improved the system EQ of my full range. It has a 8ohm driver with short horn (50w 4ohm amp) a 8 ohm super tweeter (@50w 4ohm), two 6x9 rated at 80w (@50w 4ohm each again), 2 15" 4ohm woofers rated to 200w @200w 1ohm each and a bravox bravo sub rated to 350w @ 400w 2ohm. All speakers in sealed boxes about the size of themselves to the cube. I tried different EQs. All of them have brought different sharpness and loudness to what is played, but the one which sounds louder and the most classy to ALL musics styles really, no worries, is when I crossover the subs and woofers at 80Hz 12dB octave and boost everything up to 260Hz +6dB and all the rest a good -6dB. Although counter intuitively it doesnt sound boomy. That famous one note boom arrives when you EQ the wrong way and you dont get the full transient to be enhanced, you just boom a part of it and everything will always sound a mess and a waste. Theres this thing if you hear better you are really hearing louder. Who cares about that milisecond of a +12dB at some bass frequency if you cant hear what sound that noise is? Go the deepest you can, the flattest, then you will hear bass. Go for Q not SPL unless you building a fullrange.
It is psycho acoustics, really. If you go flat to 40Hz you can feel the missing 20Hz. If you go flat to 20Hz you should somehow feel the vibe of the 10Hz coming on and so on. I felt it once its magical.
It is psycho acoustics, really. If you go flat to 40Hz you can feel the missing 20Hz. If you go flat to 20Hz you should somehow feel the vibe of the 10Hz coming on and so on. I felt it once its magical.
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Wow, thanks to audioguppy, mashaffer, and Bern Wansen for smart posts. Nice to see subjective opinions presented coherently unlike the mad ravings in the "pitch" thread in the Multi-way forum.
But I wonder if Bern Wansen could please re-write/edit his post since I think I am missing important points. Do you have acoustic measurements of the "house curve" you are advocating? Certainly as you say, a "flat" mic FR isn't the same as perceptually satisfactory FR; naive to think so.
I've just completed a 17-foot pipe that provides sound (vibrations?) to 12 Hz. So an interesting topic for me. My music obviously goes lower now (like for French organ pedals and railroad recordings) but there's also much improvement in bass SQ, making it duller and more realistic (that is, less "bassy", tuned, or boomy). That goes along with the general observation that the best systems have no character of their own: they don't sound bassy or trebly but they can reproduce great organ and triangle music when called on to do so. (For sure, introducing the pipe enclosure has acoustic consequences for the sound at my chair besides just lowering the FR.)
B.
But I wonder if Bern Wansen could please re-write/edit his post since I think I am missing important points. Do you have acoustic measurements of the "house curve" you are advocating? Certainly as you say, a "flat" mic FR isn't the same as perceptually satisfactory FR; naive to think so.
I've just completed a 17-foot pipe that provides sound (vibrations?) to 12 Hz. So an interesting topic for me. My music obviously goes lower now (like for French organ pedals and railroad recordings) but there's also much improvement in bass SQ, making it duller and more realistic (that is, less "bassy", tuned, or boomy). That goes along with the general observation that the best systems have no character of their own: they don't sound bassy or trebly but they can reproduce great organ and triangle music when called on to do so. (For sure, introducing the pipe enclosure has acoustic consequences for the sound at my chair besides just lowering the FR.)
B.
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A lot of music, especially older music has nothing below 40Hz, but there are exceptions like reggae, dub, dubstep, UK garage styles, DnB, urban (hiphop/rnb/...) and some kinds of classical (mostly organ) music.
Vinyl rarely has anything below 30Hz as it's technical very difficult (but not impossible) to do that. Digital can go as low as you wish, but mostly not below 20Hz, even for HT.
I listen to a lot of bass heavy music that goes till 30Hz (sometimes even lower) so i'm building a sub that can go to 25Hz (F3). But for a lot of music my fullrange speaker is enough with it's F3 of just below 40... And to be honest, for a lot of music even an F3 of 50Hz or even higher with a gentle slope (6-12dB per octave) is ok.
Vinyl rarely has anything below 30Hz as it's technical very difficult (but not impossible) to do that. Digital can go as low as you wish, but mostly not below 20Hz, even for HT.
I listen to a lot of bass heavy music that goes till 30Hz (sometimes even lower) so i'm building a sub that can go to 25Hz (F3). But for a lot of music my fullrange speaker is enough with it's F3 of just below 40... And to be honest, for a lot of music even an F3 of 50Hz or even higher with a gentle slope (6-12dB per octave) is ok.
DnB
Had the house to myself some days ago, really enjoyed listening to the classic: DJ Ash And DJ Vern - Squeeze
Volume was eventually up to "now that's just silly" IE a bit past eleven. Still had a little bit to go before eventually straining the amp, cones hardly move, just ridiculously loud, house shaking. Can't wait to get some time to finish up my new amps.
Many modern recordings sound bad even at "6", a friend of mine came by to have a listen, he had some tunes he wanted to try out, some of the tunes he agreed wholeheartedly that it was just completely intolerable a more than medium volume, bass was non existent, video was cool though. Must have been aimed squarely at phone and laptop speakers...
Had the house to myself some days ago, really enjoyed listening to the classic: DJ Ash And DJ Vern - Squeeze
Volume was eventually up to "now that's just silly" IE a bit past eleven. Still had a little bit to go before eventually straining the amp, cones hardly move, just ridiculously loud, house shaking. Can't wait to get some time to finish up my new amps.
Many modern recordings sound bad even at "6", a friend of mine came by to have a listen, he had some tunes he wanted to try out, some of the tunes he agreed wholeheartedly that it was just completely intolerable a more than medium volume, bass was non existent, video was cool though. Must have been aimed squarely at phone and laptop speakers...
Sure thats a pleasure. I have the right answer to you question. We are used to the way car speakers and small radios play so when we equalize we tend to squeeze too much brightness and SPL through the higher efficiency carried by higher pitched frequencies. The thing is: they enhance bass along them via harmonic coupling of the octaves, but since it is basically a gain caused BY the treble sounds, NOT all the bass notes/ transients are enhanced equally so you have loudness but the feel is mostly just what the treble can squeeze along. Now answering your question: a really flat FR from your system is unnaffected by room acoustics (i.e. its not prejudicial at all), but only if it is flat from the system. Treble notes tend to reverberate like crazy. So the overral you lose some SPL but the need for it does not hold if you have a clear sound.
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Unless you're listening to a reproduction of a live performance of synthesized music.
Are you sure about that? I mean have you measured? I don't doubt the prodigious bass of DubStep clubs, or even live PA. Been in the biz over 40 years and I know it has to be super loud to be felt. My question would be, is there really much content below 30Hz in this music. I have't been able to find it, but if you know where it is, I'm happy to look.
Second question would be: When the bass is really rolling, really giving you that club feeling, what is the frequency range?
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