Realistically, how low is bass in music?

[scottjoplin]

Seriously? You listen to sine waves exclusively?

 

[freddi]

I'm in that 12K club too - can be happy with acoustic era phonograph recordings and acoustic phonograph playback - thrilled with 1928 - early 30's for electric - especially early with tuba bass lines and what seems to be high harmonic distortion . Happy with a lot of pop music with the Karlson's meager LF extension of ~50Hz. I do like "bass drops" - some headphones will do them on the cheap. Having really low and clean bass extension should make a lot of recordings far more enjoyable and the speakers should tend to "disappear" leaving the music and room ambiance (if any of the latter). 30Hz is one goal - how much power does one need there in an average size room ? how much in the 100Hz area?

 

[just a guy]

Seriously? You listen to sine waves exclusively?

Do you think I'm joking? Here's an example song that has a bassline that is just as intense as a sine wave - 3 db crest factor when highpassed - and has NO harmonic signature of the fundamental note at all. The fundamental is measured by Audacity to be 1.6 db and the next highest peak is - 24 db. This is serious bass and if you highpass it above the fundamental there will be nothing at all left.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

The bass line isn't too low, Audacity is showing it's 37 hz, and this is a track that most people here would not even listen to intentionally but it is a track that exists and this genre of bassy music is popular in certain circles. It's also an incredibly visceral track to note the obvious difference in this type of music vs other types of non manufacturer bass so at least observe a couple of comments sine143 made about this track and look at a couple of his images and you might learn a thing or two about how different music can be from the type of stuff you might be used to.

Kaiju ft. Flowdan - Hunter [OSMUK029] - YouTube

this track (when lopassed at 100hz) has crest factor ranging between 4 and 2.5 THROUGHOUT (after bassline starts), centered at 34/35 hz (shall we call it the TH115 killer?)

attached is an image of the "dynamic range level" (actually just a crest level measurment) of the first 32 bars after the bassline starts in hunter, lowpassed at 100 (24db/oct). I would do the whole song but its basically just minute variations.

these are basically the first 2 of about... 2000 similar tracks in my library. Hunter is known for its particularly brutal bassline, but its not particularly special. Id expect almost every track in my library to measure under a 5 on the DR meter when lowpassed, and the bass is basically continuous for 54 seconds, followed by a few seconds break, then continuous again for 54 seconds, rinse repeat.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

From here - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...apped-horn-35hz-extension-30.html#post3776437

its almost straight sine waves (with *light* saturation), thus the "squashed" appearance when lopassed.

We dont call it "bass music" for nothing. also known as "Sound System Music". Adding excess upper harmonics to the bass just takes away from the sub bass headroom, so most producers dont do that. Instead, its made to be enjoyed on systems that are perceived as WAY to excessive for the size room (8 lab subs for 300 people excessive).

TT Dynamic ranges manual does not give provision for a lopassed signal lol (although the track fullrange doesnt have much more dynamics, considering there is very little midrange at all lol).

here's a pic of the lowpassed waveform for hunter. If it was *terribly squashed* there wouldnt be any variation in the signal level.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

From here - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...apped-horn-35hz-extension-31.html#post3776684

These two images from sine 143 (the dynamic range which is basically crest factor of 3, same as a sine wave) and the lowpassed bass signal that clearly has no variation in amplitude of peaks and dips, same as a sinewave) show that the bassline for this track is basically a sine wave. And the Audacity image I showed clearly shows that this bass line sine wave is about 26 db hotter than the next highest peak in the track.

This is bass music. And yeah, it's pretty much a sine wave.

 

[scottjoplin]

Gotcha. I have and listen to some electronic music, but for warm, characterful low bass I admit to really enjoying ol'skool dub, so I guess it's maybe an age thing, but the young can still occasionally teach me a thing or two, by young, I mean babies mostly

 

[Zero D]

Bass FUNDAMENTALS etc

@ just a guy et al

I think it is "mainly" an age thing, on here anyway But out there in club/bar/land, where i've lived & worked Very happily & successfully for decades, & on both sides of the decks, i can Definately attest that there are Lots of people, including DJ's, that are in their 50's & 60's still at it after All these years, & loving it too Without lots of bass & sub bass, they would find alternative venues that do provide it. And there are a heck of a lot of them these days, & for some time now in Lots of countries around the world, including the UK & the USA.

Lots of people head over to Ibiza as just one eg, ever summer for their holidays, & it's not just to get a tan by the beach/pool, and/or pull the Plenty of tasty talent on offer either And it's not only teens etc that go for the vibe etc & the Dance music. I guess many on here would be very surprised to see Lots of people of all ages & backgrounds very happily coexisting together in clubs/bars etc. Well they Are missing out on tons of fun, i can tell you

It's never too late for people, so Enjoy while you still can !

Of course it HAS to be clean bass, as does the rest of the spectrum. But nearly everywhere has powerful decent systems these days. Some better than others, but it's most def not the old days anymore !

Another thing, there isn't just one type of dance music, & i don't like all. It has to be nice melodic tunes with mainly vocals for me Mix in a number of real classics from over the years, & it's a sure fire winner. All this without drugs, or booze these days = FAB

 

[just a guy]

Yeah I admit I'm sounding a bit ageist here and there are people from older generations that would appreciate this type of stuff I guess, but probably not many.

When you and Scott say you like electronica but with "warm, characterful", "nice melodic tunes with mainly vocals", and such descriptions, this is not at all the type of tunes I'm showing.

The 3 songs I've analyzed in this thread are -

YouTube
YouTube
YouTube

WARNING - bad language in those links.

Leaving age out of the equation completely, these tracks are not "warm, characterful, nice melodic tunes" by any stretch of the imagination. Most people regardless of age aren't going to want to listen to this stuff. It's all about the bass and if you take the bass away or high pass it no one at all is going to want to listen to it. But I guarantee a higher percentage of younger people will be interested in it than older people, especially when played on equipment that can properly reproduce it, so I do kind of have to insist that age likely plays at least a small role here, and that definitely does not imply any offense to any age group, younger people simply seem to have a higher tolerance for lack of "melody" or whatever you want to use to describe it. A large part of this type of music is how it FEELS physically, as much if not more than how it sounds and that seems to be a completely unknown distinction on this forum for the most part.

 

[hugz]

If those are the songs I'll lose by high-passing at 35hz, then I guess that settles it- I'll high-pass at 35

 

[just a guy]

Well that's only 3 examples out of literally thousands of tracks with low bass, one of those tracks didn't even have low bass, it was just put there to show the difference between electronically created tones with no harmonics vs naturally created instrumental tones with harmonics. And you also don't have a system capable of even reproducing these tracks properly with full amplitude bass extension so you don't even have a real clue of what these tracks are supposed to sound and feel like.

But like I told you a long time ago, if you don't love bass just for the sake of bass there's no point in even trying.

 

[just a guy]

That's not even the end of the bass story though - rebassing is becoming much more popular recently so now ANY song can have low bass and it creates a whole new atmosphere for the track, a visceral experience that is equally tactile and audible so you can feel it as much as hear it.

Here's a couple of examples of very popular extremely easy listening tracks that have had bass harmonics added BELOW the original fundamental and the effect is excellent, it makes the tracks much better. But don't even bother if you don't have a system that can reproduce these notes, in the second track there's 10 hz notes.

I can currently only hit around 23 hz with my system, I'm itching to get down below 10 to enjoy stuff like this fully.

YouTube
YouTube

 

[head_unit]

Looking to build a sub. 20hz is always people's goal, but surely 40Hz or so is more realistic, even for hip-hop/electronica? No sense chasing notes that don't exist anyway

That idea led Dave Prophit to tune all Bazooka car subs to 41 Hz, being the lowest note of a bass guitar. They did sound powerful, but horribly ugly and boomy.

Because, your question is ignoring the time domain and the time response (ringing). In a ported box, "uselessly undertuning" the box could still help with excursion* but with a still decently "tight" sound.

Also, some systems/rooms probably work better with a higher - 3 dB point but a slow rolloff depending on room gain. There is NOTHING magical about a -3 dB point, it was just a mathematical convenience Dick Small used in his seminal thesis.

*hmmm, at least I think so...because the excursion reduction would be below the frequencies of interest...I don't have access to a good simulator to look at this at the moment. I'm pretty sure offhand that the port would still lift response at frequencies of interest compared to a sealed box though.

 

[Don Hills]

That's not even the end of the bass story though - rebassing is becoming much more popular recently so now ANY song can have low bass and it creates a whole new atmosphere for the track, a visceral experience that is equally tactile and audible so you can feel it as much as hear it. ...

I do this for party tracks. Being old, I and my friends tend to party to classic rock - nothing much below 40 Hz in many cases. I have a chain of Audacity processes that generates clean bass an octave below the original and mixes it in. For example, see the attached for original vs processed spectrum.
(The track is a live version of Warren Cucurillo's "Ordinary World". It's on Youtube. The bass was rolled off sharply below 50 Hz. There are hints of 31 Hz, the bass player had a 5 string bass, but it's over 30 dB down.)

 

[Zero D]

Well i think you would be surprised, from my experiences over the years more people prefer & like sub bass along with the rest of the track, than not BUT, if the Whole system isn't set up & Eq'd etc correctly & the sub bass isn't balanced properly, then it won't blend in nicely. It really does make All the difference

If you mean by electronica music, tunes created on a computer with software synths & effects etc etc, then yes i'm into that. But only the "warm, characterful", "nice melodic tunes with mainly vocals" as you mentioned. I don't mean plinky plonky thin weak sounding stuff either ! Not only those, but classic dance tunes from back in the day, which are still Very popular in the clubs etc around the world. Many have been remixed with beefed up bass/percussion etc to compete with the later stuff. Not all remixes are better than the originals though, as some people spoil them by losing the original vibe in all sorts of ways

I realise your music outlook is not the same as mine, but our we share a common love of great sound & bass/sub bass =

Most people regardless of age aren't going to want to listen to this stuff. It's all about the bass and if you take the bass away or high pass it no one at all is going to want to listen to it. But I guarantee a higher percentage of younger people will be interested in it than older people, especially when played on equipment that can properly reproduce it, so I do kind of have to insist that age likely plays at least a small role here, and that definitely does not imply any offense to any age group, younger people simply seem to have a higher tolerance for lack of "melody" or whatever you want to use to describe it. A large part of this type of music is how it FEELS physically, as much if not more than how it sounds and that seems to be a completely unknown distinction on this forum for the most part.

I agree

I havn't had the chance to DL the tracks you linked to yet, but i will later in the week from another location. My bandwith here is not as good ! I'll let you know what i think.

@ Don Hills

Good for you with the octave trick I designed & built a hardware device many moons ago that does that, after i read about the dbx unit. I also designed and built in a 1/4 Octave EQ for it too. Mine was 20Hz - 40Hz. Whilst i was at it, i was able to include an extra circuit in it that was 10Hz - 20Hz as well. That was too much for the speaker i mention next though Of course i then also had to design & build a sub bass box to go with it. Together they were magic I still have the device, but not a speaker box to go with it, yet. I'm waiting till i move so i can build a monster box for it

 

[Brian Steele]

If you mean by electronica music, tunes created on a computer with software synths & effects etc etc, then yes i'm into that. But only the "warm, characterful", "nice melodic tunes with mainly vocals" as you mentioned.

LOL, I've love to hear a few examples of this music that you're talking about.

Me, I find myself listening to a lot of deep house and future house these days, with the occasional "vocal trance" track for background stuff when I'm driving.

This arrived on the playlist recently - a remix of London Grammar's "Hell to the Liars" - London Grammar - Hell to the Liars (Kölsch Remix) - YouTube

 

[Zero D]

@ Brian Steele

I didn't mention the phrase "House Music" as i expected not many on here would know much about it, if anything ! Even if they had heard of it, i doubt if they have actually heard thousands of tunes from over the years & since, or even dozens ! I love GOOD house And a lot of it IS melodic etc with nice vocals = Real songs, not just beats etc.

You might know this classic, Passion by Gat Decor" ? The original is without vocals, but still great, YouTube & a super later version with vocals, YouTube Check out the fab bassline for one thing As with ALL Youtube etc vids, you never get HQ sound though !

If you can stream radio, try to catch Annie Mac's show on BBC Radio 1 from the UK. Right now she's on holiday, so the standins are Not playing what she normally would. She usually plays some monster up 2 date tunes, not all are but enough are, which you might like.

 

[technofreak]

In my experience, extension down to 30 Hz has been the norm for the past 20 years or so, regardless of genre.

For example, blues:Toscho - Forgotten Mines

Rock(ish): Soul Coughing - St. Louis is Listening
Ethosphere - Tides of War

There are fewer, but not an insignificant number of, pieces that go below 30 Hz. Mainly in the dub and classical genres.

For example (one of my personal favourites) Wolfen Tecnologies -
River Magic has very strong, yet musical, presence to around 25 Hz

And Jeremy Soule's Dragonborn has a lot of ambience and air down to 20 Hz.

Yellow Bursts - Under the Moon I Can See You uses a 29 Hz tone sparingly, but emotionally it makes all the difference to the piece.

So, for me, 30 Hz extension for an audio system is a must, 25 Hz is good, but extension down to 15 or 16 Hz (ie, covering the whole zeroth octave) is ideal. Lower is fun, of course, but takes a lot of effort for little rewards.

Of course you have to bear in mind that higher bass frequencies (~35 - 70 Hz mostly, in my experience) tend to mask frequencies below 30 Hz, especially at lower loudness levels. That even if lower frequencies are ~6 dB louder.

Oh, and if you are using Foobar2000, Musical Spectrum is a good plugin to see what's going on down below.

 

[Djim]

Even if they had heard of it, i doubt if they have actually heard thousands of tunes from over the years & since, or even dozens !

Hi Zero D,

You mean 'old' people can't recognize the intro of 808State, identify a 'Italo' piano or don't know what to think of the '303' acid break at 5:06, because they only listen to wooden instruments? ;-)

Regards,
Djim

 

[Diogenes]

There's enough deep stuff out there that when it's there I'd hate to just ignore it. I love music too much to have the arrogance to dismiss the artist's intent to include the low stuff when they do and so seek to reproduce all that's there. Granted, it takes alot to do that with authority, but we're not exactly in this hobby to take the easy route to audio reproduction that has true fidelity to the source and not parts we pick and choose. It may not be reasonable to achieve single digit extension within one's limits or even the bottom octave or two of many instruments, but that's no cause to deem it wasted effort for others who do wish to pursue reproduce of the spectrum.

My favorite go-to demonstration track for the low frequency performance of my system is from the "industrial/dark ambient" genre, the track "Radiation" from the group Dahlia's Tear on their album Harmonious Euphonies For Supernatural Traumas Mesmerising Our Existences In Radient Corpuscle Galaxies. (You can guess they're Swedish. Something about Scandinavia makes for some real oddball music and stranger names, spelling and all.) The intent of the 'song' is to build upon that anxious feeling strong low frequencies can build up on the listener with prolonged exposure for the listening experience thus playing off the name. On a system that can reproduce all of it at a respectable level, it does what it was meant to and makes for an intense anxious feeling and/or nausea. Perhaps not the most upliftingly enjoyable, but it's not intended to be Bieber-esque pabulum or saccharine yacht rock. Yet, try it on a system that can't do below 35Hz with authority and it's entirely neutered. It's not that the impact is diminished or a missing fundamental or two leaning out the timbre, most of the sound is outright gone.

Take a look and see:

That's not for just a moment's drop, but for almost the whole thing:

Bit of an extreme example there, but it does show that ignoring the bass frequencies isn't always about leaving out a few minimally represented frequency extremes that may not even be noticed. Doing so can outright undo everything the musician wanted the listener to hear and experience; the music equivalent of replacing Goya's Saturn Devouring His Son with a velvet Elvis.

Of course, frequency extension of such extremes is not limited to electronically manipulated music, but can turn up in any genre. Just last night, I was listening to "I Idolize You" from Kal David's Crossroads of My Life and decided to take a quick look at it.

What an unmolested blues recording spectrum looks like:

I checked: it's down 12dB at 4Hz. No fancy electronic manipulation, no car audio bump, just a good kick drum that hasn't suffered from overzealous brick-wall filtering.

 

[Zero D]

Originally Posted by Djim

You mean 'old' people can't recognize the intro of 808State, identify a 'Italo' piano or don't know what to think of the '303' acid break at 5:06, because they only listen to wooden instruments? ;-)

Haha, good one Well i don't know you're age, but you do def know what's what

But even if some older people do recognise those types of sounds/elements etc in a track, it doesn't mean they can identify & name them as you correctly did, or know it's called House Music. Which is what i was alluding to.

Whilst i'm at it, if anybody thinks i was suggesting that the track i linked to has sub bass in it, i wasn't. Just giving an example of a brilliant House tune classic

 

[Zwiller]

No fancy electronic manipulation, no car audio bump, just a good kick drum that hasn't suffered from overzealous brick-wall filtering.

Other than close micing, compression, and EQ. As a musician, I can assure that Metallica sounds like a garage band unless processed accordingly. That said, do what you like and like what you do. To me, it's all about finding the "secret sauce" or what makes your preferred genre come alive. If you dig infra sub bass, go nuts and put 50 18's in your living room. As a musician and rocker, I think it's all about horns and especially low mids. One thing I might suggest to those fans of the classic genre is a nice reverb unit. Nowadays good verb is reasonable. I would think a good verb with a large hall would do wonders reproducing the essence of a live performance which seems to be what most fans of the genre are after.

 

[cbdb]

Are you sure it's intentional, and not rumble leaking into the mic from the road outside? At those freqs the recorder wouldn't hear it and might not remove it. I've never been in a recording studio ( and I've worked in a few high end ones) that dosnt have some low rumble. These freqs are very hard to stop acoustically.