Well Ben, that's something I wanted to experiment with. I can sit between my 21" woofers with headphones on. To test I can put the VLF into the headphones or into the woofers, or not at all. I'll have to match levels by ear using the VLF only.
I'll disclose my bias going in; that VLF in the big woofers will give more of a room feel than headphones bass or no VLF at all. It's the expected result.
Once that's done, I may substitute VLF pink noise for the actual recorded VLF to hear if simple random VLF noise also gives a room feel.
I'll disclose my bias going in; that VLF in the big woofers will give more of a room feel than headphones bass or no VLF at all. It's the expected result.
Once that's done, I may substitute VLF pink noise for the actual recorded VLF to hear if simple random VLF noise also gives a room feel.
Great idea, esp with an ABX for blind testing.
How will you set the levels?
Likely, your 21-inch drivers will introduce "something" into the experience. Maybe clearly big-room ambience. But not necessarily beneficial to music listening any more than ambulances driving by the concert hall or the HVAC starting to roar.
Just finished reading Ethan Winer's excellent new edition on everything in audio. Recording producers can add anything to the sound their evil little hearts desire - including I suppose big-room reverb. Do they choose to do so?
B.
Hmmmm. Will have to think about that. If Foobar will play back a 4 channel wave file thru my USB DAC, it could work. Never tried all 4 channels with Foobar.
I would have to do it by ear. I can build a 4 channel file that alternates back and forth between VLF in the headphones and VLF in the woofers. I have used Dave Griesinger's app for headphone EQ that does a similar tone comparison and it's a good method. Might be tricky down that low, but I can't think of another way,
While the brain can fill-in 'missing fundamentals' (and IMO it seems a lot of modern 'pop' music is synthesised to create exactly that effect), the physical feeling of VLF (either in-venue or via a large subwoofer setup) is definitely something that adds to the experience and would be noticed in an A/B back-to-back test, whether on live music or a created soundtrack to a film.
IIRC Bossobass did such a test using an electronic 18Hz HPF and then removing it to leave a flat-to-3Hz system, with the test subjects not being told what was happening. I believe all of them said the flat system was noticeably more 'weighty' (and created floor wobble on the suspended wood-construction floor), which would suggest that reproduction of VLF is important in creating the physicality of a real-life experience, whether heard (due to high volume) and/or perceived through other senses more subtly.
Accurate reproduction of VLF may well take a lot of EQ and displacement to create either a flat EQ curve or a rising 'house curve' (to personal taste), but that would surely just reflect and reinforce the Fletcher Munson curves?
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The perceiveness of missing fundamemtals results not a clear and distinctively usefull and rich tone. The effect is pronounced when playing transients fading out. Heres a formula that works: generate 5 tones with 2n harmonicity, say, go from 200 to 3200. Sum up all tones. Apply tempo/pitch change from +12 to 0 semitones. Apply exponential out decay. Apply reverb (any room). Apply compression twice. Now you can hear a rumble much more down pitched than the lowest tone you used initially. You can even cutoff below 200hz you will still hear the hum, like a bass pitched exhaustor noise. That is the psychoacoustic missing fundamental. Dont expect to add up VLF counting in simple terms with this effect because that in fact may be unwanted in any musically improvised ends.
Bern.
Bern.
I'm a music producer and I always cut everything below 20Hz in final processing. I've seen other producers do it (some even cut everything above 20KHz) and I believe it's a common practice amongst professionals as well. Everything below 20Hz (or even 30Hz) gives a "muddy" character to the mix and it's generally where unwanted noises occur.
Hi bogdan
My focus is on classic and opera recordings.
For booth/small studio recordings, no reason not to highpass.
When you will have the chance to deal with a recording which has captured acoustic instrument(s) –voice(s) unamplified at a medium to large venue, then please do the HP non HP comparison.
Also when there is a multi channel live recording with amplified instruments-voices, you certainly HP all the channels except the omni ambient mics when used, no?
There always has to be a time consistency with the sound picked up by the microphones if the ambience is to be reproduced together with clear image of the instruments. Use of far spaced ambient microphones for that, exaggerate the sense of space but blur the image.
Geometry of the space/placing of the mics is the major factor and some times the ambient phase issues at LFs are used to advantage in recordings of slow changing (church) music, jubilenia celebrations, large space crowdy events ect.
>Edit. I don’t want to make VLF in recordings a big issue.
If for serious technical reasons there has to be a sacrifice, I will leave out ambience and vote for clear musical content. I only wish as a listener I can have both
George
My focus is on classic and opera recordings.
For booth/small studio recordings, no reason not to highpass.
When you will have the chance to deal with a recording which has captured acoustic instrument(s) –voice(s) unamplified at a medium to large venue, then please do the HP non HP comparison.
Also when there is a multi channel live recording with amplified instruments-voices, you certainly HP all the channels except the omni ambient mics when used, no?
There always has to be a time consistency with the sound picked up by the microphones if the ambience is to be reproduced together with clear image of the instruments. Use of far spaced ambient microphones for that, exaggerate the sense of space but blur the image.
Geometry of the space/placing of the mics is the major factor and some times the ambient phase issues at LFs are used to advantage in recordings of slow changing (church) music, jubilenia celebrations, large space crowdy events ect.
>Edit. I don’t want to make VLF in recordings a big issue.
If for serious technical reasons there has to be a sacrifice, I will leave out ambience and vote for clear musical content. I only wish as a listener I can have both
George
I'm not clear on just what you are saying.
The core issue is what perception psychologists call the property of "constancy". When you see a person 100 meters away, they do not "look" one cm tall. Just how constancy applies to 104 musicians in my little music room playing 80dB is another question. Which curve of the F-M series should they be on? Or when the flute in a recording is somehow playing 75dB?*
Like it or not, F-M really is the equal-loudness situation. Very few pre-amps ever had anything resembling proper F-M EQ. The superb Kenwood Basic pre-amp (second version) did have a proper 4-pot "loudness" control but you still needed proper gain-management in your system for it to track correctly. But when set up right (no doubt rare), it really did work as it should. I used it and I'm a demanding listener.
B.
*Don't ask me because I don't have the answers... yet
... Anyway.
I'd still say that flat to 27hz should be the goal for most, unless there are special considerations (ref. my own post in a different thread about this very topic, what, like 4-5 threads this year about the same thing now?).
My system can flop about on 14hz on some volume, (just feels uncomfortable, not "loud", only doors and cupboards vibrating, the sound itself puts me on edge) for maybe 30 minutes no problem, on 10hz at +/- 5mm x 4 15"s, my amp starts getting problems if it goes on for more than 10 Seconds or so.
I'd still say that flat to 27hz should be the goal for most, unless there are special considerations (ref. my own post in a different thread about this very topic, what, like 4-5 threads this year about the same thing now?).
My system can flop about on 14hz on some volume, (just feels uncomfortable, not "loud", only doors and cupboards vibrating, the sound itself puts me on edge) for maybe 30 minutes no problem, on 10hz at +/- 5mm x 4 15"s, my amp starts getting problems if it goes on for more than 10 Seconds or so.
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Careful now (SJ) Matt.
Don't drag religion into this. ;-)
I do experience a certain "uneasiness" when experiencing loud sub 20hz pure sine. It is probably just instinct preserving us, low frequencies = either very large animal, eartquake or rock/mud slide...
So noone listened to the old skool jungle classic I mentioned earlier?
YouTube
Not much sub bass, but it's really good if you want a bit of bass on a decently mastered tune.
Don't drag religion into this. ;-)
I do experience a certain "uneasiness" when experiencing loud sub 20hz pure sine. It is probably just instinct preserving us, low frequencies = either very large animal, eartquake or rock/mud slide...
So noone listened to the old skool jungle classic I mentioned earlier?
YouTube
Not much sub bass, but it's really good if you want a bit of bass on a decently mastered tune.
The high pitch screaming of my wife invokes equal fear in me
George
Then I need a Greek wife! because I am still free with 61 years age, I do like climate more also.
OK if you can do it, but what are the trade-offs to get there? I'm happy with near flat into the mid 30s, that's a goal that works for me. There just isn't any music lower than that in the recordings I listen to. There seems to be some room tone down below 35Hz, but there is also plenty above that. I've heard a lot of systems that claim to play lower, but do they really?
I think we too often get fascinated with simple specs, and forget that it's more complex than a single number.
20Hz in electronic music is actually very rare but surprisingly pleasant if you have nice low noise subwoofer. In car its very easy to archive but in a big room... That means a lot of resonance noise.
I have a small apartment and relatively large woofer built into a wall. I wouldnt say its OB but rather a very large closed enclosure.
Neighbours have never complained since I have 40W amplifier behind it and massive boost at 16Hz (+30dB) that slowly starts to increase at 28 and peaks at 16Hz
Its playing very low notes. Its silent at 40Hz... Thing is... 40Hz and that " boom boom" bass is very annoying, specially when watching tv.
I have a small apartment and relatively large woofer built into a wall. I wouldnt say its OB but rather a very large closed enclosure.
Neighbours have never complained since I have 40W amplifier behind it and massive boost at 16Hz (+30dB) that slowly starts to increase at 28 and peaks at 16Hz
Its playing very low notes. Its silent at 40Hz... Thing is... 40Hz and that " boom boom" bass is very annoying, specially when watching tv.
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