Thats interesting. I have friends that turn on their subs listening to live vocalist recordings at home to get the live vibe.
I wonder why? Very few singers can hit a low C at 65Hz. So unless your an Iggy Pop fan, subs are redundant for most main speakers.
In the light of the recent revealing posts of rumble noise on recordings it might be the subs are adding the background low frequency noise of the venue to give a "live" atmosphere. For me I dont like rumble. Ill pass.
Issues with amplifying rumble might include
1. increased risks of hearing loss playing back at higher volumes
2. rumble harmonics raising the noise floor
3. needing to make/buy/install/maintain subwoofers
4. psychoacoustic dysphoria from low frequency exposure giving that weird unsettled feeling something is wrong*
5. angry neighbours
*The participants were not told which pieces included the low-level 17 Hz near-infrasonic tone. The presence of the tone resulted in a significant number (22%) of respondents reporting feeling uneasy or sorrowful, getting chills down the spine or nervous feelings of revulsion or fear. Infrasonic concert, Purcell Room, London, 31 May 2003, sponsored by the sciart Consortium with additional support by the National Physical Laboratory
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I agree with all of your post.
I can't fully explain it. I do know that with vocalists the sibilants- "Ppp... and Ttt..." from their lips (deliberate or not) can generate instances of quite low frequencies into the microphones at live events. Almost like a "popping" sound.
Perhaps mimicking this at home can help re-create the event.
I recently listened to (and watched) Elvis' "aloha from Hawaii".
Certainly not a live event where there is any ULF that I'm aware of, and also being a 45 year old performance.
I have listened with and without my subs, and I can tell you that it is much more convincing of the live event with the subs on (I have four 12" distributed around the room).
I also have extensive room treatment (bass traps) that I personally feel is imperative for proper room acoustics (in my room).
I have been down the multiple (8) 15" woofer path, and while very fun initially, helping provide lots of ULF and tons of impressive mid-bass, it results in an UN-balanced system, with resulting listening fatigue and impending trip to the E,N,T doctor for temporary tinnitis lol.
In my experience ULF at high spl is like Trix cereal- It's fun at first but- "trix are for kids" Y.M.M.V.
I can't fully explain it. I do know that with vocalists the sibilants- "Ppp... and Ttt..." from their lips (deliberate or not) can generate instances of quite low frequencies into the microphones at live events. Almost like a "popping" sound.
Perhaps mimicking this at home can help re-create the event.
I recently listened to (and watched) Elvis' "aloha from Hawaii".
Certainly not a live event where there is any ULF that I'm aware of, and also being a 45 year old performance.
I have listened with and without my subs, and I can tell you that it is much more convincing of the live event with the subs on (I have four 12" distributed around the room).
I also have extensive room treatment (bass traps) that I personally feel is imperative for proper room acoustics (in my room).
I have been down the multiple (8) 15" woofer path, and while very fun initially, helping provide lots of ULF and tons of impressive mid-bass, it results in an UN-balanced system, with resulting listening fatigue and impending trip to the E,N,T doctor for temporary tinnitis lol.
In my experience ULF at high spl is like Trix cereal- It's fun at first but- "trix are for kids" Y.M.M.V.
Well that will make you angry!
Yes, I did not have a replacement for a 15" driver then, so got satisfied by 2x10" drivers. Instead of a feedback by acceleration I used a positive feedback by current then.
You are welcome!
Sure did.
Enjoyed the music and the recordings. All around excellent.I'm going to follow up with some subwoofer listening to find out of having the content below 35Hz helps or not. I may try both the recorded LF noise and also just low passed pink or brownian noise, to hear if just any old noise makes a difference, of if real venue LF noise* is better.
*if that's what it is. Could be just recording chain artifacts.
One should take care when working with inaudible sounds. Sine waves make me all sick independently of freq in Hertz. Also out of phase or boomy subs make sick aswell. Perhaps the so claimed professionals that built the stage for these terrifying 17Hz missed something. Lets not give infrasound such a vulgariz3d soul >:0
Some vinyl transfers that have survived.
FFTs are from the 1st minute of each. The 1812 has an extra one to incorporate the canons.
All transfers were done on the same system
There is even more LF energy than shown (the Hagerman Bugle RIAA preamp that was used, has the IEC/ LF roll off incorporated)
1 Mamagakis Ekdromi, Miliaresis LYRA SVLP3552
2 Andres Segovia ??
3 Mahler-Das Klagende Lied Pierre Boulez-LSO CBS 72773 Walthamstow Assembly Hall, May 26,1969
4 Mahler Symph Nr 2 Bruno Walter-NYPO COLUMBIA-Odyssey Y230848
5 Mahler Symph Nr5 Dimitri Mitropoulos-NYPO Replica ARPL32463 Carnegie Hall Sep 31, 1959
6 Mahler Symph Nr6 Dimitri Mitropoulos-NYPO Replica ARPL32463 Carnegie Hall Apr 7, 1955
7 Mahler Symph Nr9 Dimitri Mitropoulos-NYPO Replica RPL2460161 Carnegie Hall Jan 23, 1961
8 Mahler Symph Nr10 Dimitri Mitropoulos-NYPO Replica RPL2460161 Carnegie Hall Jan 23, 1961
9 Berlioz-Symponie fantastique Mitropoulos NYPO CBS-Odyssey 32 160204
10 Prokovief Romeo & Juliet Mitropoulos NYPO CBS-Odyssea 54019
11 R Strauss Elektra Mitropoulos-NYPO FONITCETRA TRY07
12 DG??
13 Mussorgsky Pictures at an exhibition SUPRAPHON 1110 0570 G disk non washed
14 Mussorgsky Pictures at an exhibition SUPRAPHON 1110 0570 G disk washed
15 Tchaikovsky 1812 DECCA SPA 108 disk non washed
16 Tchaikovsky 1812 DECCA SPA 108 disk washed
17 Tchaikovsky 1812 DECCA SPA 108 section with the canons disk non washed
18 Tchaikovsky 1812 DECCA SPA 108 section with the canons disk washed
>Edit: all records were 33.3rpm vinyl
George
Attachments
Slightly off-topic.
There's an astonishing performance led by Toscanini of the scherzo from Beethoven's 13th quartet in which the sound of the 78 RPM shellac whizzing by greatly adds to the sense of velocity and hence the excitement.
B.
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Thanks much.
Should we interpret the low frequency end of these RTA's as the sound of the hall, just like we interpret far-field room measurements at home?
BTW, piece of cake for everybody to do their own all-electric RTA's of recordings using honourware REW. (But I haven't quite figured out how to do mine with a Mac Air laptop except by circling outside the laptop with a USB port and back in with a DAC. Glad to learn any ideas to avoid that silly - but otherwise quite clean - loop.)
B.
Well spotted. Tho it looks slightly lower in most of the music, maybe that's just down to how the test disc is set up.
The musical content excite the arm/cart resonance a little bit differently each time (due to freq bandwidth and amplitude variations of the music) but not very much. The 5Hz to 20Hz bump due to that resonance is evident in the LP recordings but is pretty stationary (for each playback system)
Those vinyl transfers show a lot of differences at the LF end and this is not due to the playback equipment. The larger the recording venue and the less the close miking, the more present is the acoustic signature of the performing space.
When I HP filter large orchestras and opera live recordings, I don’t enjoy the outcome as much as the non filtered . I have tested it so many times that I have made up my mind on this.
George
Those vinyl transfers show a lot of differences at the LF end and this is not due to the playback equipment. The larger the recording venue and the less the close miking, the more present is the acoustic signature of the performing space.
When I HP filter large orchestras and opera live recordings, I don’t enjoy the outcome as much as the non filtered . I have tested it so many times that I have made up my mind on this.
George
I guess as low as one can afford. And the roll off as less steep as possible
Michael
In my living room the same room mode signature is energized and recorded regardless of the excitation method either natural or intentional.
But if you look at some of the FFTs, there are four performances at the same hall (Carnegie), two on the same day, yet there are different low end skirts due to different musical content (excitation).
George
VLF is only one cue to the perception of being in a big space (or help to having a faithful reproduction of the experience). So a sense of listening to Britten's War Requiem in the Concertgebouw is possible without VLF (actually, also without any music playing... I can still hear it).*
While VLF room and inherent ambience (like subways) may be detectable with RTA plots, that doesn't mean we perceive them. Par for this forum, we mostly consider what our subs can pump out. But equally important is what we can sense (hearing and vibration) given those signals.
As with other bass listening, we don't need the VLF fundamental to be present in order to "hear" it, esp with other cues present in addition to the partials, as per my first paragraph.
Even if we have speakers that go real low, we may not sense those signals unless the speakers were cranked up unnaturally loud and with substantial EQ.
B.
*ummm, just read a great new book by Michael Pollan that is quite relevant
While VLF room and inherent ambience (like subways) may be detectable with RTA plots, that doesn't mean we perceive them. Par for this forum, we mostly consider what our subs can pump out. But equally important is what we can sense (hearing and vibration) given those signals.
As with other bass listening, we don't need the VLF fundamental to be present in order to "hear" it, esp with other cues present in addition to the partials, as per my first paragraph.
Even if we have speakers that go real low, we may not sense those signals unless the speakers were cranked up unnaturally loud and with substantial EQ.
B.
*ummm, just read a great new book by Michael Pollan that is quite relevant
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