Re: PCM1704 versus PCM63
It is very hard to manufature an accurate multibit DAC even one with only 16 bit resolution.
All higher resolution for audio DACs is only on paper.
For a more or less accurate 18 bit industrial DAC you will have to pay > 1000 EUR per chip.
Fortunately BB equipped the PCM56 with MSB adjust. 🙂
PA0SU said:
It is very hard to manufature an accurate multibit DAC even one with only 16 bit resolution.
All higher resolution for audio DACs is only on paper.
For a more or less accurate 18 bit industrial DAC you will have to pay > 1000 EUR per chip.
Fortunately BB equipped the PCM56 with MSB adjust. 🙂
Re: Re: Re: PCM1704 versus PCM63
On which planet do you live, Bernard? How long ago were you on earth?
I cannot say it better. MFB-ajustment is not required for the 63P-K,Y,J, etc. My measurements support this.
Bernhard said:
On which planet do you live, Bernard? How long ago were you on earth?
irgendjemand said:
I cannot say it better. MFB-ajustment is not required for the 63P-K,Y,J, etc. My measurements support this.
Re: Re: Re: Re: PCM1704 versus PCM63
Really ?
I cannot remember any of your measurements to be very impressive.
PA0SU said:
Really ?
I cannot remember any of your measurements to be very impressive.
Re: Re: Re: PCM1704 versus PCM63
1)
Quote from that PDF:
20 bit results requires a 20 bit converter with a THD+N figure of about -120dBFS ( or a 16 bit D/A with a very tight 1/16 LSB differential non linearity )
end quote
I get results as good as -67 / -127 dB with dithered -60dB signal, 8xos and proper adjustment, so differential non linearity must be even tighter...
2)
Could you please send me a sample ? I would like to check those out.
irgendjemand said:
1)
Quote from that PDF:
20 bit results requires a 20 bit converter with a THD+N figure of about -120dBFS ( or a 16 bit D/A with a very tight 1/16 LSB differential non linearity )
end quote
I get results as good as -67 / -127 dB with dithered -60dB signal, 8xos and proper adjustment, so differential non linearity must be even tighter...
2)
Could you please send me a sample ? I would like to check those out.
Has anyone been in touch with Juang(A'af) recently? I sent an e-mail to him regarding the chips but no response and he is usually very fast...
Re: Re: Re: Re: PCM1704 versus PCM63
Bernhard,
I can't, as I have no way to make the measurements the way you do 😉
BUT, wasn’t digital sound becoming MUCH BETTER during the last 15 years?? Just listen to an early Deutsche Grammophone recording, which have been done with the first (or second) generation of A/D convectors and were monitored while using equipment suffering the limited resolution of the D/A converters.
In other words:
Is there or is there no benefit yields 6.02dB per bit in additional accuracy?
Can a 18 bit converter compete with a 20 bit converter (not to say 24 bit) in accurancy?
Or - everything went backwords since the 20 bit arose?
Shall I be convinced that only A/D converters became better, while the D/A became worse?
Or, both became worse and what we do hear is an illusion??
Bernhard said:
Bernhard,
I can't, as I have no way to make the measurements the way you do 😉
BUT, wasn’t digital sound becoming MUCH BETTER during the last 15 years?? Just listen to an early Deutsche Grammophone recording, which have been done with the first (or second) generation of A/D convectors and were monitored while using equipment suffering the limited resolution of the D/A converters.
In other words:
Is there or is there no benefit yields 6.02dB per bit in additional accuracy?
Can a 18 bit converter compete with a 20 bit converter (not to say 24 bit) in accurancy?
Or - everything went backwords since the 20 bit arose?
Shall I be convinced that only A/D converters became better, while the D/A became worse?
Or, both became worse and what we do hear is an illusion??
Re: Post#426
I had returned my pair of PCM63P-Y to Juang Siahaan, because they were not new old stock as claimed by him. It costs me way too much for a pair of used item. He emailed me to acknowlege receipt of same on 28th April. Again, he emailed me on 14th May, that he was out of town. When he came home, he would refund to me. But recently, on 23rd June he emailed me that he don't have enough fund in his bank account, so refund cannot be done. Two months has gone, but I still can't get back my refund.
I should be most grateful that if someone who knows this gentleman well , remind him that I really want to get back my money.
Best Regrads. 😕
I had returned my pair of PCM63P-Y to Juang Siahaan, because they were not new old stock as claimed by him. It costs me way too much for a pair of used item. He emailed me to acknowlege receipt of same on 28th April. Again, he emailed me on 14th May, that he was out of town. When he came home, he would refund to me. But recently, on 23rd June he emailed me that he don't have enough fund in his bank account, so refund cannot be done. Two months has gone, but I still can't get back my refund.
I should be most grateful that if someone who knows this gentleman well , remind him that I really want to get back my money.
Best Regrads. 😕
hooray Jocko warned everyone on his site bout this gentleman(A'af). Now it would be great if the topic would continue on 16bit vs 20bit technology/product track, as it relates to sound and measurements. Too bad PA0SU and Bernhard doesnt seem to agree by any means. On a historical note, first 18bit (second gen?) recordings were made from 1987 with Neve DTC-2 units, multibit to the last drop.
flshzug said:
I have no complains about A'af. He have sent me 12x PCM63 of different origin in two shifts to let me pick the two best... It was not cheep, but no any problem.
The IC's are not new, but if the work properly, it does not make any difference to me. 🙂
I do hope that A'af has only temporary problems, he has been very responsive and understanding. I hope my question will not stop the discussion on the DAC chips, it is such a learning experience
Conclusion: A fake that can sound somehow good. The genuine is MUCH better!!!
To beauty_devine, Paul, Spencer, Joseph_K (Georg), Bernhard, IMS, Herb, flshzug, Ivan Petrov, finneybear, Nikola Kriverov and indeed, to all:
Finely I was able to put my hands on 5 genuine "PCM63P-Y", BB Japan, 9028 G9 908. The chips are new-old-stock; they have never been used before. I got them from Yamaha-Parts' dealer in California (this was his very last bunch).
We have been 3 persons in the testing sessions; we were listening to the new chips in 3 different devices: My AVM (with CS8414 + DF1704 (on SLOW!), a modified Rotel RCD-971 with similar configuration as the AVM (but also with PMD100, alternating with the DF1704), and then with a Stoke DAC (with tubes in the I/V).
Note that we compared the genuine Yamaha Y's to A'AF's best known to us “Y's", as well as to some different "K"s and to PCM1704-UK (mounted on a DIP 28, SOIC Adaptor).
All tests were LISTENING tests.
Here are our conclusions:
1.
The genuine "Y"s sounds much better then any of A'AF's "Y"'s and have been the absolute winner in our many different tests.
2.
A'AF's "Y"s, which at the time were better then any "K" (so I once reported) - are still better then any "K"... I assume now that they have been indeed smartly selected from a bunch of unused/NOS "K"s; somebody might have laser(ed) them later on…. I have no proves to this, and the subject has been discussed here enough. One for sure: THEY ARE NOT GENUINE “Y”.
3.
As for the accuracy of the genuine “Y”s: From the 5 chips which I got, we were able to sort 4 into excellent two matched pairs (all done by hearing). This was quite easy to do. Only one of them was not on the same high level.
4.
We didn't notice any "aging" process (the chips are from 1990!), so all this about aging might well be a myth.
5.
The genuine "Y"s can show fault of a DAC circuit, like in case of wrong PCB print. For example, in one of our DAC's, the genuine “Y”s detected some never-heard-there-before HF (coming from the DF or from the receiver; we were not able to tell). It had to be treated with much careful. The problem occurred on one Channel, and disappeared only after pin 18 (clock) was sensitively grounded with 100 Pico farad Capacitor combined with 1000 Ohm resistor.
6.
Using PMD100 together with the genuine “Y”s should better be passed-by here in silent… The PMD100 sounded boring, not inspiring, and even if clear and the music was not distorted, there have been no any life in the reproduction.
7.
In comparison with the genuine “Y”, both our BB Korea “K”s and A’AF’s “Militar” K’s (lasered as BB Philippines) are quite weak sounding chips. The PCM1704U-K adaptor was sounding hard and too “mechanical”.
8.
A’AF’s “Y”, as fake as they are, sounds always better then the above mentioned “K” from Korea or Phl. and/or the 1704 adaptors.
9.
Should be also mentioned here that the Rotel RCD-971 has some build-in re-clocking circuit behind the DF and before the PCMs. To my best knowledge, this is relating “only” to the Word-Clock information.
10.
We will still try to compare our genuine “PCM63P-Y” to the “K2” version. We found some chips by SONY. It will take few more days to get them; will keep the forum informed 🙂
Greetings,
IJ.
To beauty_devine, Paul, Spencer, Joseph_K (Georg), Bernhard, IMS, Herb, flshzug, Ivan Petrov, finneybear, Nikola Kriverov and indeed, to all:
Finely I was able to put my hands on 5 genuine "PCM63P-Y", BB Japan, 9028 G9 908. The chips are new-old-stock; they have never been used before. I got them from Yamaha-Parts' dealer in California (this was his very last bunch).
We have been 3 persons in the testing sessions; we were listening to the new chips in 3 different devices: My AVM (with CS8414 + DF1704 (on SLOW!), a modified Rotel RCD-971 with similar configuration as the AVM (but also with PMD100, alternating with the DF1704), and then with a Stoke DAC (with tubes in the I/V).
Note that we compared the genuine Yamaha Y's to A'AF's best known to us “Y's", as well as to some different "K"s and to PCM1704-UK (mounted on a DIP 28, SOIC Adaptor).
All tests were LISTENING tests.
Here are our conclusions:
1.
The genuine "Y"s sounds much better then any of A'AF's "Y"'s and have been the absolute winner in our many different tests.
2.
A'AF's "Y"s, which at the time were better then any "K" (so I once reported) - are still better then any "K"... I assume now that they have been indeed smartly selected from a bunch of unused/NOS "K"s; somebody might have laser(ed) them later on…. I have no proves to this, and the subject has been discussed here enough. One for sure: THEY ARE NOT GENUINE “Y”.
3.
As for the accuracy of the genuine “Y”s: From the 5 chips which I got, we were able to sort 4 into excellent two matched pairs (all done by hearing). This was quite easy to do. Only one of them was not on the same high level.
4.
We didn't notice any "aging" process (the chips are from 1990!), so all this about aging might well be a myth.
5.
The genuine "Y"s can show fault of a DAC circuit, like in case of wrong PCB print. For example, in one of our DAC's, the genuine “Y”s detected some never-heard-there-before HF (coming from the DF or from the receiver; we were not able to tell). It had to be treated with much careful. The problem occurred on one Channel, and disappeared only after pin 18 (clock) was sensitively grounded with 100 Pico farad Capacitor combined with 1000 Ohm resistor.
6.
Using PMD100 together with the genuine “Y”s should better be passed-by here in silent… The PMD100 sounded boring, not inspiring, and even if clear and the music was not distorted, there have been no any life in the reproduction.
7.
In comparison with the genuine “Y”, both our BB Korea “K”s and A’AF’s “Militar” K’s (lasered as BB Philippines) are quite weak sounding chips. The PCM1704U-K adaptor was sounding hard and too “mechanical”.
8.
A’AF’s “Y”, as fake as they are, sounds always better then the above mentioned “K” from Korea or Phl. and/or the 1704 adaptors.
9.
Should be also mentioned here that the Rotel RCD-971 has some build-in re-clocking circuit behind the DF and before the PCMs. To my best knowledge, this is relating “only” to the Word-Clock information.
10.
We will still try to compare our genuine “PCM63P-Y” to the “K2” version. We found some chips by SONY. It will take few more days to get them; will keep the forum informed 🙂
Greetings,
IJ.
irgendjemand,
Thank you for your update and you are so lucky to get a hand on a Genuine Y directly from Yamaha. Can you give us a photo to see the Genuine Parts as reference?
Regarding Ks, I think the Japan K sound the best, I have Taiwan K which felt far behind the K. Tried Korea K2 and it is better than Japan K but may be a little bit behind Japan K2. My point is that if you want to have good sound from PCM63 chips, try to get the Japan version. Also on the bottom of the Japan chip, the mold number is 48 (mostly), 39 or 37 that I even seen.
For the marking, make sure that you check the font size, font type, relative position, ink mark (no laser mark please) color etc.. to decide whether your chip is real or fake. So far I believe most fake chip can be told by exemine the marking when comparing to a Genuine one.
I have experience that a chip is marked with PCM63P-K but actually the chip is not working at all and the mold number at the bottom is not 48, 39 nor 37.
Thank you for your update and you are so lucky to get a hand on a Genuine Y directly from Yamaha. Can you give us a photo to see the Genuine Parts as reference?
Regarding Ks, I think the Japan K sound the best, I have Taiwan K which felt far behind the K. Tried Korea K2 and it is better than Japan K but may be a little bit behind Japan K2. My point is that if you want to have good sound from PCM63 chips, try to get the Japan version. Also on the bottom of the Japan chip, the mold number is 48 (mostly), 39 or 37 that I even seen.
For the marking, make sure that you check the font size, font type, relative position, ink mark (no laser mark please) color etc.. to decide whether your chip is real or fake. So far I believe most fake chip can be told by exemine the marking when comparing to a Genuine one.
I have experience that a chip is marked with PCM63P-K but actually the chip is not working at all and the mold number at the bottom is not 48, 39 nor 37.
IJ,
maybe you are a little too fast with your conclusions.
Select best chips from a batch of K and remark as Y ?
Not very logical...
Maybe the Y from another factory just sounds better.
Aging does not occur on the shelf, only when chip is in use.
maybe you are a little too fast with your conclusions.
Select best chips from a batch of K and remark as Y ?
Not very logical...
Maybe the Y from another factory just sounds better.
Aging does not occur on the shelf, only when chip is in use.
conclusions
Bernhard,
Actually, A’AF’s chips could indeed be from another factory: The PCM’s pins, both of his "Y"s and his "Military K"s, looks slightly different and it was quite difficult to insert them into the sockets.
This can be a good indication for some different production standard & manufactory, while they might have been produced under licenses - or unauthorized.
In any case: A'AFs new "Military K"s (from 2003 or 2004) sounds as good as some used genuine BB "K"s from 1994 or 1996 (Japan or Korea). If aging occur only when the chip is in use (thank you for this explanation), this might explain this point as well. In other words: A genuine - non aging-new-old-stocked BB “K” chip might sound even better. Someone should look into this.
As for the subject of this thread: A'AF's new "Y"s (2003) are good sounding chips. However, they doesn't sound as good as the genuine Yamaha "Y"s.
What can one do with all this info? Not much: After all this long exploring & sharing, it is quite upsetting to know that Yamaha does not supply the genuine part anymore. Instead, there is some “replacement” available, which costs about 100.- Euro each (!!). I wonder what kind of chip it is (am awaiting Yamaha's answer).
Funny, but the Yamaha “Y” which I got, were supposed to be “KY” (see the Foto).
By SONY-Parts, the catalogue it is even more disappointing: They are only 2 K2 Chips left, and they are somewhere in Japan… The last 2 chips which were kept in Europe are sold-out.
One can however:
1. Select a good pair of “Y” (2003, not 2004!) from A’AF’s chips-selection; this is only recommended to those who can keep cool and not get easily angry or depressed. The chips are very different sounding among themselves. Hopefully A’AF is capable of re-embracing the money, like he was able to do at the past (??)
2. Look for NOS genuine BB “K” – there is no aging dangerous.
3. Buy some old Yamaha device (DA8X) and take the “Y”s (KY’s?) out; hopefully there will be no too bad aging to be noticed! We just bought one yesterday (am awiting it to come).
4. Look around to find some genuine Yamaha “Y”s like I did (this took me half a year of researching).
5. Study Japanese and hunt for genuine “Y”, “KY” or "k2" in Japan.
6. Go for the PCM1704U-K adaptors and fine-adjust the DAC.
7. Give up and go for a modern chip.
I hope I am not appearing to be cynical now. This is NOT what I am trying to do here.
Regards, IJ.
Bernhard said:
Bernhard,
Actually, A’AF’s chips could indeed be from another factory: The PCM’s pins, both of his "Y"s and his "Military K"s, looks slightly different and it was quite difficult to insert them into the sockets.
This can be a good indication for some different production standard & manufactory, while they might have been produced under licenses - or unauthorized.
In any case: A'AFs new "Military K"s (from 2003 or 2004) sounds as good as some used genuine BB "K"s from 1994 or 1996 (Japan or Korea). If aging occur only when the chip is in use (thank you for this explanation), this might explain this point as well. In other words: A genuine - non aging-new-old-stocked BB “K” chip might sound even better. Someone should look into this.
As for the subject of this thread: A'AF's new "Y"s (2003) are good sounding chips. However, they doesn't sound as good as the genuine Yamaha "Y"s.
What can one do with all this info? Not much: After all this long exploring & sharing, it is quite upsetting to know that Yamaha does not supply the genuine part anymore. Instead, there is some “replacement” available, which costs about 100.- Euro each (!!). I wonder what kind of chip it is (am awaiting Yamaha's answer).
Funny, but the Yamaha “Y” which I got, were supposed to be “KY” (see the Foto).
By SONY-Parts, the catalogue it is even more disappointing: They are only 2 K2 Chips left, and they are somewhere in Japan… The last 2 chips which were kept in Europe are sold-out.
One can however:
1. Select a good pair of “Y” (2003, not 2004!) from A’AF’s chips-selection; this is only recommended to those who can keep cool and not get easily angry or depressed. The chips are very different sounding among themselves. Hopefully A’AF is capable of re-embracing the money, like he was able to do at the past (??)
2. Look for NOS genuine BB “K” – there is no aging dangerous.
3. Buy some old Yamaha device (DA8X) and take the “Y”s (KY’s?) out; hopefully there will be no too bad aging to be noticed! We just bought one yesterday (am awiting it to come).
4. Look around to find some genuine Yamaha “Y”s like I did (this took me half a year of researching).
5. Study Japanese and hunt for genuine “Y”, “KY” or "k2" in Japan.
6. Go for the PCM1704U-K adaptors and fine-adjust the DAC.
7. Give up and go for a modern chip.
I hope I am not appearing to be cynical now. This is NOT what I am trying to do here.
Regards, IJ.
Attachments
Re: Conclusion: A fake that can sound somehow good. The genuine is MUCH better!!!
Ok, I am still not sure what you wanted to say here...
Aging occurs during years of use or during burn in ( chip exposed to high temperature for some time )
The aging is about to come when the chips sit in your DAC and play for years.
irgendjemand said:
Ok, I am still not sure what you wanted to say here...
Aging occurs during years of use or during burn in ( chip exposed to high temperature for some time )
The aging is about to come when the chips sit in your DAC and play for years.
To me aging do not always means degrade in performance. I do not like the word aging but may be breakin better.
There is always a life span of chips in which the performance is always meet the orginal intend spec.
Aging means the chip is approaching to EOL.
We all know most of the electronics are still working after 20 yrs, like my tek scope, hp spectrum, hp distortion meter which are all untouch inside and all thousands parts still working fine!! I am still inpress with the accuracy they give me today on my bench top.
There is always a life span of chips in which the performance is always meet the orginal intend spec.
Aging means the chip is approaching to EOL.
We all know most of the electronics are still working after 20 yrs, like my tek scope, hp spectrum, hp distortion meter which are all untouch inside and all thousands parts still working fine!! I am still inpress with the accuracy they give me today on my bench top.
Re: Conclusion: A fake that can sound somehow good. The genuine is MUCH better!!!
Very odd that the PMD100 gave poor results, what filter were you comparing it to?
Very odd that the PMD100 gave poor results, what filter were you comparing it to?
Re: Re: Conclusion: A fake that can sound somehow good. The genuine is MUCH better!!!
DF1704, configurated to SLOW.
regal said:
DF1704, configurated to SLOW.
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