It should be noted that the heavy discussion has not been about speaker cable but about speaker/amp matching and what happens when you move outside the “normal” space of commercial hifi. The speaker cable may play a role in this matching.
I have made a request to moderation that that discussion be split into its own thread.
dave
I have made a request to moderation that that discussion be split into its own thread.
dave
Gotcha. People will make up their own minds about what electrical characteristics were changed to bring about that "improvement"
Well I don't know about better off since the other advantage the Cat 5 has is the thin gray jacket just disappears visually between the floor and baseboard. The zip cord not so much and this made it an eyesore for my significant other which of course is detrimental to marital bliss.
Hi Dave,
Yes, I'm sure. First, I make the components operate at the highest level they can. When I buy speakers, or barter for them, I sometimes just get a pair because I am curious. If it turns out they have a problem with design, I get rid of them, or fix them if possible. You don't try to "fix" a speaker issue by messing with the rest of the system that is working well together. The same as I would never try to fix a system by messing with a speaker. It should be no surprise that components that have design problems will be fixed or discarded.
I don't quite understand why you would mess with the connections between a speaker and amplifier. That's just pushing the system in a direction where it is compromised further in hopes that two wrongs will make a right. Life isn't like that. Can you change the sound? Yes, of course, but at the expense of other factors depending on what you are playing with.
Series resistance is never a good thing for the simple reason that you do not want the amplifier to lose control of the speaker. Series resistance does that, so while you might increase the amount of bass, you are messing up the transient response. If a tweeter has been added (given that we are talking about a FR system here), the added impedance will adversely affect it as well as you begin to get more output from it around its own resonant frequency. Not something you want. Ever FR driver I have ever heard does need help from a tweeter, or a "super tweeter" in order to reproduce the full range of frequencies. (that's why they make tweeters)
-Chris
Yes, I'm sure. First, I make the components operate at the highest level they can. When I buy speakers, or barter for them, I sometimes just get a pair because I am curious. If it turns out they have a problem with design, I get rid of them, or fix them if possible. You don't try to "fix" a speaker issue by messing with the rest of the system that is working well together. The same as I would never try to fix a system by messing with a speaker. It should be no surprise that components that have design problems will be fixed or discarded.
I don't quite understand why you would mess with the connections between a speaker and amplifier. That's just pushing the system in a direction where it is compromised further in hopes that two wrongs will make a right. Life isn't like that. Can you change the sound? Yes, of course, but at the expense of other factors depending on what you are playing with.
Series resistance is never a good thing for the simple reason that you do not want the amplifier to lose control of the speaker. Series resistance does that, so while you might increase the amount of bass, you are messing up the transient response. If a tweeter has been added (given that we are talking about a FR system here), the added impedance will adversely affect it as well as you begin to get more output from it around its own resonant frequency. Not something you want. Ever FR driver I have ever heard does need help from a tweeter, or a "super tweeter" in order to reproduce the full range of frequencies. (that's why they make tweeters)
-Chris
Zip cord comes in a plethora of outer color jacketing, including greys. Even clear. So there's no problem.
Now you lost my respect (and probably from others), you are arguing in BAD FAITH
A crossover cap will either be in series with a speaker (say a tweeter) or in parallel with a speaker or from signal line to ground, but in that case after an important inductor which will ISOLATE it from amplifier output, while the cable 3 nF you mention will be directly across ampplifier out terminals and directly SHORTING it at high frequencies and in any case loading and altering any NFB present, so affecting stability, etc.
Such a gross statement might be forgiven coming from a noob, but not from you with long experience on the matter.
I can always forgive ignorance, nobody is born knowing, but not bad faith.
I started into this thread hoping for some substantiated science... and then I read things like this.
There is not any context in which this makes sense or offers substantiation to any speaker wire argument.
Page two and I am out... or at least head off to get popcorn
Having been a bench technician in my early days for Marantz and later a trained Metrologist (Calibration Tech) I love reading these wire threads. So much emotion......
I've got a comfy chair
BTW my system is wired with CAT5e low signal and electrical cable for speakers, 99c/m at Bunnings, I paid more for the nice grey braided cable sheath to keep the wife happy.
I've got a comfy chair
BTW my system is wired with CAT5e low signal and electrical cable for speakers, 99c/m at Bunnings, I paid more for the nice grey braided cable sheath to keep the wife happy.
What is the R of the series inductors in the bass leg of your XO? Since they are store bought you will probably need to pull an XO out and measure it.
Remind me again the exact model you have (the big 3-ways)? Maybe we can google some info off the inter web?
Series R increases the Q of the loudspeaker. If the speaker starts out with an overdamped Q you want to increase it to optimal.
This is often how a high efficiency FR is designed. With a high R amp (typified by SE 2A3/300B), and horn loaded speakers, one can get decent LF at high efficencies with excellent transient response.
Then you have not heard a wide enuff range of FRs.
But there are quite a few that are missing an octave or 2 at the top — FE208e∑ for instance. But it is designed for highish output impedance amplifiers and works just fine with the tweeters (>5kHz) desiged to be used with them.
Usually the biggest deficit is as the bottom, and with some FRs one has to live with limited bass, add multiple (sub)woofers as advocated by Geddes and Toole (amounst others), go to elaborate horns or other biggish enclosures. But it is possible to get good response from 25-20k out of some of them.
Better top usually comes with the smaller FRs (3/4”) but limited cone size leads one to a system such as Geddes/Toole above or a WAW (Woofer Assisted Widerange). XOs are usually line level and at a freuency low enuff to avoid many of the “evils” of XOs. One can use a lowR amp to drive the woofers and their box, and given the FR is used where the impedance is flat, one can take advantage of what a highR amp brings. Furthe one can load the midTweeter in a box that works to eliminate any time smear from stuff coming back thru the cone and at the same time flatten the impedance bump at the bottom.
dave
Oh Gawd,
Bend it any way you want Dave.
Currently I don't have any FR speakers. They just don't do it for me. I have two pairs of PSB Stratus Gold speakers, A Klipsch RP280F, Klipsch R280F, a pair of Klipsch R-15M on the bench, a pair of Peerless 8" two way speakers and the original prototype for the last tower two way I designed, Peerless drivers were the target speakers. I used something else for the proof of concept models I have. Then there are things I forgot in ther garage, Polk drivers as I recall. They are all hooked up and in use. Then if we want to count, a pair of in walls in the master bath and another pair in the kitchen. I also have a bunch of raw drivers. Good ones, mostly Klipsch and Vifa with some Polk thrown in.
I got a very good deal on the Klipsch speakers and I wanted to see what the Tractrix horns were like today (excellent). The PSBs I saved up for and bought when I could. Great speakers and a known quantity. The rest appeared as conditions aligned. I do have some pairs in the garage that aren't hooked up. Haven't got to those yet. I'm just finishing an actively crossover system for a friend. Marantz amps that are lovely (170DC) and am toying with the idea of a three way active using a PSB speaker. I'm not sure I can afford three Marantz 300DC amplifiers. Then there are the changes I make to them to do on two more amps. Sobering thought.
-Chris
Bend it any way you want Dave.
Currently I don't have any FR speakers. They just don't do it for me. I have two pairs of PSB Stratus Gold speakers, A Klipsch RP280F, Klipsch R280F, a pair of Klipsch R-15M on the bench, a pair of Peerless 8" two way speakers and the original prototype for the last tower two way I designed, Peerless drivers were the target speakers. I used something else for the proof of concept models I have. Then there are things I forgot in ther garage, Polk drivers as I recall. They are all hooked up and in use. Then if we want to count, a pair of in walls in the master bath and another pair in the kitchen. I also have a bunch of raw drivers. Good ones, mostly Klipsch and Vifa with some Polk thrown in.
I got a very good deal on the Klipsch speakers and I wanted to see what the Tractrix horns were like today (excellent). The PSBs I saved up for and bought when I could. Great speakers and a known quantity. The rest appeared as conditions aligned. I do have some pairs in the garage that aren't hooked up. Haven't got to those yet. I'm just finishing an actively crossover system for a friend. Marantz amps that are lovely (170DC) and am toying with the idea of a three way active using a PSB speaker. I'm not sure I can afford three Marantz 300DC amplifiers. Then there are the changes I make to them to do on two more amps. Sobering thought.
-Chris
Nelson does a good job on cables used with typical commercial speakers that expect a voltage amp.
PassDiy
Do note the note in parenthesis in paragraph 3… that is exactly where/what i am talking about. Some of you think that such a thing cannot exist (despite many concrete examples).
No CAT5 in that, but these may add to the information. Cat 5 Measurements
We did have similar issues with the Polk cable as Nelson did, except that it blew out the output stage of the 40W PS audio amps we sold lots of.
dave
PassDiy
Do note the note in parenthesis in paragraph 3… that is exactly where/what i am talking about. Some of you think that such a thing cannot exist (despite many concrete examples).
No CAT5 in that, but these may add to the information. Cat 5 Measurements
We did have similar issues with the Polk cable as Nelson did, except that it blew out the output stage of the 40W PS audio amps we sold lots of.
dave
Those are the ones i was thinking of, these ones?
2 set sof measurements findable.
PSB Stratus Gold loudspeaker 1991 Measurements | Stereophile.com
PSB Stratus Gold loudspeaker 1997 Measurements | Stereophile.com
Neither have a well behaved impedance so would require a low impedance amplifier. And given the nasty phase angles able to deliver a lot of current.
I found an XO map here: PSB Stratus gold X-over help
A singlre series inductor with a Zobel across the woofer. PSB says 250 hz XO. Text book would be about 2.5 mH.
Madisound has 19 g (0.95Ω), 16 g (0.59Ω) or a Solen (.36 Ω). From the only picture i found of the XO the Solen looks to be the closer match.
When wa sthe last time you got to listen to some and what were they?
dave
Attachments
Hi Dave,
Yes, those are the ones. They can be driven very nicely with a 35 watt per channel tube amp, but I normally drive them with a modified Marantz 300DC. Just sound quality improvements. I didn't have to back off the protection at all. The best amplifier I've heard on them was a Marantz 500 I rebuilt and improved. The verdict was unanimous on that.
The last FR speakers I heard was maybe 7~8 years ago. I don't remember the details as they sounded like most others. Lack of upper highs and lows, they were a 6" I think. I had them for a few days and never warmed up to them. As I said, they were similar to every other full range speaker I've ever heard. I must have heard a few at sound shows, but they were not memorable.
-Chris
Yes, those are the ones. They can be driven very nicely with a 35 watt per channel tube amp, but I normally drive them with a modified Marantz 300DC. Just sound quality improvements. I didn't have to back off the protection at all. The best amplifier I've heard on them was a Marantz 500 I rebuilt and improved. The verdict was unanimous on that.
The last FR speakers I heard was maybe 7~8 years ago. I don't remember the details as they sounded like most others. Lack of upper highs and lows, they were a 6" I think. I had them for a few days and never warmed up to them. As I said, they were similar to every other full range speaker I've ever heard. I must have heard a few at sound shows, but they were not memorable.
-Chris
to answer the question of the OP and some others:
In most cases normal high quality speaker cable made of so called "oxygen free copper" does the job as good or better than most expensive speaker cable. Those you'll find (at least in Europe) in most electronic parts stores and higher end hifi shops. Silver cables are also good for this. The main thing is to have them in the right gauge (16 gauge does the job in typical home setups). If you want a branded cable, Mogami and Canare are safe bets and not extreme expensive neighter.
And use good connectors (banana clips, speakon, ...). Neutrik is not that expensive and very good for this. And i use some QED banana clips that are also not expensive and very high quality. Paying big money for a speaker cable is never needed.
And cyrogenic treatment of some metals (including copper, but not silver) makes the material on molecular level more consistant and stronger. So it takes little faults out of the structure of the metal wich can help with the sound. The result is not dramaticly, but sometimes it makes it a bit better (and on copper, never does harm when done right). But i would not do it with silver cables or brass components, who get worse after the treatment. A good side effect is that your cable will last longer and be much less prone to oxidation after the cyrogenic treatment.
In most cases normal high quality speaker cable made of so called "oxygen free copper" does the job as good or better than most expensive speaker cable. Those you'll find (at least in Europe) in most electronic parts stores and higher end hifi shops. Silver cables are also good for this. The main thing is to have them in the right gauge (16 gauge does the job in typical home setups). If you want a branded cable, Mogami and Canare are safe bets and not extreme expensive neighter.
And use good connectors (banana clips, speakon, ...). Neutrik is not that expensive and very good for this. And i use some QED banana clips that are also not expensive and very high quality. Paying big money for a speaker cable is never needed.
And cyrogenic treatment of some metals (including copper, but not silver) makes the material on molecular level more consistant and stronger. So it takes little faults out of the structure of the metal wich can help with the sound. The result is not dramaticly, but sometimes it makes it a bit better (and on copper, never does harm when done right). But i would not do it with silver cables or brass components, who get worse after the treatment. A good side effect is that your cable will last longer and be much less prone to oxidation after the cyrogenic treatment.
I could only discover it increased conductivity, are you saying it does something else too?
in what measurable audible way other than the reports from the golden ears of proponents that spend money on this nonsense? Honestly. Hammering, tempering, extruding, folding, annealing, and many other means alter or strengthen the structure of metals.
Make a valid measurable electrical case, and apply that measurable data to the signal path to make an argument, otherwise it is just gobble ty gook.
It makes as much sense as...
Maybe pre tensioned speaker cables, what about post tensioned? Why not send speaker cables to space for a trip around the moon, then age them at the bottom of the Mariana Trench for 7 years, hovering above the sea floor in tethered oxygen free bags... the temperature and pressure extremes will have subtle but profound effects on the structure of the metals... making the speaker cables sound better...
I thought it was just me...don’t you hate it when speaker cables wear out? I’ve been through three sets just this month alone. Maybe an electron cleaner would help, I am told unaligned electrons can be abrasive and wear out a cable faster..
Honestly, do we now need to A/B/X test cables by age, hours of use, watts delivered?
Last edited:
I guess this is sort of "point proven".
Matt's thread was just the mandatory exception to verify the rule.
None whatsoever, trust your ears is the oft repeated mantra, when anyone who knows even the slightest thing about auditory perception would never say such a simplistic thing, good sales pitch though.
I think you understand me wrong. I don’t do this myself because the benefit is way too small for the cost and effort needed. But there is an effect sometimes. And if you are after the last % of improvement, it may be a factor. But that it has dramatic effects is ********, that is true.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.