Chris built boxes for us. Many of them were my designs, but there were lots of others.
Back when Chris & i 1st started out together (before Chris decided he was not going to obsess anymore) we did a lot of iistening to add to both of our already extensive experience. After this he went to a lot of effort to make himself some 24 g speaker cables that looked “pretty”.
dave
Dave,
You're the one who threw down here first. I wasn't going to mention it at all until you just had to. Now that horse has left the barn.
Now, messing with the output impedance, which is what you are doing, is merely acting as an effects box. The speaker sure as hell is not performing as intended by the manufacturer (except your speakers). Your arguments center around your own personal opinion. I can accept that until you attempt to tell the majority of people that we are not using our systems correctly. Pretty darned arrogant considering you are saying the same thing to speaker designers that know much more than you do.
These forums are not your personal sandbox used to push forward your own personal beliefs. They represent the average state of the art. You want your own sandbox, you got one. It is your vendor thread, this is not your vendor thread. Your opinion differs from the majority of the market. That makes your opinion your personal opinion and nothing more.
-Chris
You're the one who threw down here first. I wasn't going to mention it at all until you just had to. Now that horse has left the barn.
There and back now = 0.4R Anything but insignificant! And your 0.2R dropped damping factor to 40, but the round trip makes that 20. This is very significant and not my opinion. You were using the example of a full range (no x-over). You can`t pick and choose how you argue something. I was looking at active crossover, direct connections, but even with a multi-way crossover, that 0.2 or 0.4 ohm wire doesn`t help one little bit!
Most systems are designed to be driven by a low impedance amplifier. They are tested that way in the factory, they are measured that way and that is the most common expectation. You differ in your opinion, and that sets you at odds with the industry as a whole (on average). A couple people who think as you do are statistically irrelevant.
What you are claiming is again statistically a tiny portion of the industry as a whole. You and they are an anomaly, unimportant. I design tube amplifiers, and higher damping factors sound better to the vast majority of people, all other things held constant. Damping factor isn`t the goal, just to have it over some reasonable figure. There were amplifiers made with variable damping, but they are now gone and we just have amplifiers where the damping is as high as reasonably possible. That means, lower output impedance is really what you want.
Now, messing with the output impedance, which is what you are doing, is merely acting as an effects box. The speaker sure as hell is not performing as intended by the manufacturer (except your speakers). Your arguments center around your own personal opinion. I can accept that until you attempt to tell the majority of people that we are not using our systems correctly. Pretty darned arrogant considering you are saying the same thing to speaker designers that know much more than you do.
These forums are not your personal sandbox used to push forward your own personal beliefs. They represent the average state of the art. You want your own sandbox, you got one. It is your vendor thread, this is not your vendor thread. Your opinion differs from the majority of the market. That makes your opinion your personal opinion and nothing more.
-Chris
How do you know i don’t have 4’ cables? I do, but i mostly use the 6’ ones.
0R4 is only significant in the context of “what is the most appropriate output impedance of the amplifier to match my speaker”.
What is the R of the first choke in the XO of your speakers? Jeffery has a full-range speaker and no inductor so more room to play. There are some FRs that really, really want to see a higher output impedance amplifier.
Have you ever heard someone say, “those speakers sound kinda lean”? Are you sure it is not a case of the amp has too low an output impedance? There is a right output impedance. In 99.9% plus cases in the real world, lower output impedance on the amplifier is an asset (largey since so many speakers assume close to zero and don’t pay attention to ugly impedance curves), but full-range speakers are one of the places where we start wandering outside that 99.9%.
If Jeffery has not already tried solid skinny speaker cable, one can usually get sufficient length for the experiement (use the same colour out of the wire for both L+R). What he finds is dependent on his speakers, his room, speaker placement, amp, what feeds the amp*, hearing acuity, training, taste. Only he can decide. We can only make suggestions based on our experiences. I did so. Then i got jumped on.
*(once information is lost is is lost, and what makes the difference between a good hifi and a great hifi is in those little tiny bits of information).
And here we see you ignoring the physics. If the speaker has flat impedance there are no effects.
And in the case of some FRs we want the effect. A FR has a well defined impedance. A rise at resonance with maybe a rise at the HF (no copper pole-piece cover).
A higher output impedance amplifier will have a net frequency response that is a convolution of part of the impedance curve of the driver and the frequency response when measured with a zero output impedance amplifier.
So using this physics aspect one can improve the response of a FR at the bottom and at the top (only if the impedance rises). If the HF impedance rises and you don’t need more that is where a zobel comes in.
And there are some loudspeaker manufacturers (not many) that make speakers that expect an amplifier with higher output impedance,
And if you take the idea of the FR speaker to a multiway (multi-amping, one amp for every way), except in the bass, the driver will usually have substantially flat impedance response so does not care about the amplifier output impedance. One just has to care about what sounds best.
This forum is for people to share their experiences, what they found worked, did not, what was good and what was not, to help extend the knowledge of others specifically and globally. All in the hopes that the other members can use that to enhance their experience. And as is clear to me, our experiences are what make our beliefs.
All i am doing is sharing my experiences and in the case of this specific subthread, hoping to educate you on the practical physics involved in the specific situation being discussed.
You are saying that your experiences/beliefs trump mine. I say they are only equally valuable.
dave
0R4 is only significant in the context of “what is the most appropriate output impedance of the amplifier to match my speaker”.
What is the R of the first choke in the XO of your speakers? Jeffery has a full-range speaker and no inductor so more room to play. There are some FRs that really, really want to see a higher output impedance amplifier.
Have you ever heard someone say, “those speakers sound kinda lean”? Are you sure it is not a case of the amp has too low an output impedance? There is a right output impedance. In 99.9% plus cases in the real world, lower output impedance on the amplifier is an asset (largey since so many speakers assume close to zero and don’t pay attention to ugly impedance curves), but full-range speakers are one of the places where we start wandering outside that 99.9%.
If Jeffery has not already tried solid skinny speaker cable, one can usually get sufficient length for the experiement (use the same colour out of the wire for both L+R). What he finds is dependent on his speakers, his room, speaker placement, amp, what feeds the amp*, hearing acuity, training, taste. Only he can decide. We can only make suggestions based on our experiences. I did so. Then i got jumped on.
*(once information is lost is is lost, and what makes the difference between a good hifi and a great hifi is in those little tiny bits of information).
And here we see you ignoring the physics. If the speaker has flat impedance there are no effects.
And in the case of some FRs we want the effect. A FR has a well defined impedance. A rise at resonance with maybe a rise at the HF (no copper pole-piece cover).
A higher output impedance amplifier will have a net frequency response that is a convolution of part of the impedance curve of the driver and the frequency response when measured with a zero output impedance amplifier.
So using this physics aspect one can improve the response of a FR at the bottom and at the top (only if the impedance rises). If the HF impedance rises and you don’t need more that is where a zobel comes in.
And there are some loudspeaker manufacturers (not many) that make speakers that expect an amplifier with higher output impedance,
And if you take the idea of the FR speaker to a multiway (multi-amping, one amp for every way), except in the bass, the driver will usually have substantially flat impedance response so does not care about the amplifier output impedance. One just has to care about what sounds best.
This forum is for people to share their experiences, what they found worked, did not, what was good and what was not, to help extend the knowledge of others specifically and globally. All in the hopes that the other members can use that to enhance their experience. And as is clear to me, our experiences are what make our beliefs.
All i am doing is sharing my experiences and in the case of this specific subthread, hoping to educate you on the practical physics involved in the specific situation being discussed.
You are saying that your experiences/beliefs trump mine. I say they are only equally valuable.
dave
I use Low Voltage Landscape Lighting wire, basically 12 gauge zip cable. It's well under a dollar a foot. 12 gauge might be overkill, but I know it should be fine for runs up to 100 feet. More than that and you should have the amplifier at the speaker, and run a balanced line-level cable.
My big fear about this is LED lighting takes a LOT less power, so they may not sell the 12 gauge for much longer.
If you ask for speaker wire I'll bet it'll cost more!
You're not just pulling wire, you're pulling our legs too!
I-R losses I call voltage drops, and I-squared-R losses I call power losses.
A good amplifier needs to be in control of the speaker it drives - otherwise sonic "accuracy" suffers.
Cone mass, suspension, will naturally have some amount of inertia, particularly when driven hard.
These things cause such things as "booming", sloppy sound, ragged response, etc.
It takes some time (milliseconds?) for the cone to stop moving from a given burst of sound.
Feedback systems in the amplifier sense this by way of the "kickback" voltages induced in the voice coil - and compensate partly.
So, naturally, this kickback is important, and by lessening it by dissipating some of it in the speaker connection wiring will have a negative effect on accuracy, giving less control of the amplifer.
While all this might be minute, trivial amounts of voltage, it's best to lessen it as much as possible by using the proper type of wire - up to a point of course, larger in this case is better.
But my findings conclude that, as I mentioned previously, in a home, in the average room, 16 gauge zip cord is satisfactory - you need not go crazy over it - 14, 12 gauge romex is utterly stupid, wasteful, and ugly.
And so is buying that fancy esoteric stuff that was frozen, blessed by a priest, and hand assembled by virgin women who weaved the silk butterfly outer sheathing under a moonlit evening sky on a holy day.
Cone mass, suspension, will naturally have some amount of inertia, particularly when driven hard.
These things cause such things as "booming", sloppy sound, ragged response, etc.
It takes some time (milliseconds?) for the cone to stop moving from a given burst of sound.
Feedback systems in the amplifier sense this by way of the "kickback" voltages induced in the voice coil - and compensate partly.
So, naturally, this kickback is important, and by lessening it by dissipating some of it in the speaker connection wiring will have a negative effect on accuracy, giving less control of the amplifer.
While all this might be minute, trivial amounts of voltage, it's best to lessen it as much as possible by using the proper type of wire - up to a point of course, larger in this case is better.
But my findings conclude that, as I mentioned previously, in a home, in the average room, 16 gauge zip cord is satisfactory - you need not go crazy over it - 14, 12 gauge romex is utterly stupid, wasteful, and ugly.
And so is buying that fancy esoteric stuff that was frozen, blessed by a priest, and hand assembled by virgin women who weaved the silk butterfly outer sheathing under a moonlit evening sky on a holy day.
Whatever Dave,
The point is that you feel this is your reality, and that's fine. But, when you take a run at me over a disagreement that I have not continued on a public forum, you have gone too far.
In summation, you are right. People can try anything they like. I had experienced exactly what you were suggesting while I was in high school using a pair of tube 12 watt amplifiers. The wire mattered a great deal. In that instance, the speaker was wired direct and the tweeter through a capacitor. It was a commercial box, so nothing that I interfered with. That scenario is actually exactly what you were recommending or at least holding up as your example (minus the tweeter of course). What I discovered was that the wire was the problem. I used some 18 ga POT64 as speaker wire and that cured the main issues. So my experience in a next to identical setup that you described failed utterly as a system to reproduce music. You disagree and that's fine. It does illustrate to me what a low bar you set for yourself.
1. Nothing I have ever said here has violated the rules of physics and I haven't ignored those rules (as I sit here surrounded by a lot of costly equipment in my lab)
2. Your speakers have a point of resonance. The impedance is maximum there and there is also a lot of phase shift. The impedance of a single driver then increases due to the inductance of the voice coil. You can't change that.
So where does one buy these mythical speakers with no resonance or inductance in their voice coil?
Okay, that entire section from that quote down to where I talked about the forum is just a collection of silliness. It culminates with this gem:
If I had to guess, this is probably where your early multi-way speaker systems failed. You didn't understand how important the resonant frequencies for midrange drivers and tweeters were. It would also seem that without zobel networks, you still had output from the woofers and midrange drivers above their crossover points. That wouldn't sound very good (which is why we take care with those things when we design a system). This statement does show clearly that you do not understand how dynamic speakers work. You should buy books by Douglas Weems. He will guide you through understanding how that stuff works. He isn't heavy on math, so it should be easy reading.
No where did I say that you couldn't come up with a system that sounded okay in select circumstances. I have also said that your methods and beliefs do not work in the majority of circumstances. That's fine. Dr Bose also had his beliefs that he championed, and he was a lot more successful with his principles than you are. My principles align with working science on the subject, so really what I have done is merely one small part of the giant whole of accepted, proved products. I'm not doing anything beyond what everyone else is doing, so I'm unremarkable. I'm also right by virtue of being part of the whole that has been proved correct through countless studies and experiments. You aren't arguing my methods. You are taking on the entire body of successful work by countless individuals who are more talented than I am. I wouldn't want to be you right now.
-Chris
The point is that you feel this is your reality, and that's fine. But, when you take a run at me over a disagreement that I have not continued on a public forum, you have gone too far.
In summation, you are right. People can try anything they like. I had experienced exactly what you were suggesting while I was in high school using a pair of tube 12 watt amplifiers. The wire mattered a great deal. In that instance, the speaker was wired direct and the tweeter through a capacitor. It was a commercial box, so nothing that I interfered with. That scenario is actually exactly what you were recommending or at least holding up as your example (minus the tweeter of course). What I discovered was that the wire was the problem. I used some 18 ga POT64 as speaker wire and that cured the main issues. So my experience in a next to identical setup that you described failed utterly as a system to reproduce music. You disagree and that's fine. It does illustrate to me what a low bar you set for yourself.
Except for the loss of power, I might almost agree with you. Keeping an open mind, all I'm saying is that I don't know if there are any other detrimental effects.
Again, your opinion. My experience differs sharply from yours. In the world of paging as an example, we use what is called a 70 volt line to drive speakers. Some are literally speakers in the ceiling while others are in a little wooden box. We use step down transformers in order to lower the impedance as seen by the speaker so that they do not output sound following their impedance curve. These are normally 8" drivers, some are 6 1/2". Therefore they fall withing similar types of speakers that you might use. They certainly do follow the same rules of physics. I was the one who provisioned these systems, some in excess of 3,500 watts and three racks of amplifiers. Some even were mosfet output types. Intelligibility is a critical characteristic, and that means there is a limit on acceptable distortion. I also designed and sold custom and speaker systems as a standard package from a store selling to the public which actually did reasonably well. So I know about both consumer and professional sound systems. I was paid to do this work, continuously employed by two companies that were unrelated. I continued this work in my own business run from a commercial address with employees who I paid to do this work. So your comments to the effect that I don't know what I'm doing are insulting to say the least.
No Dave, that isn't true for most of us. What you are doing is messing with the characteristics of a speaker system in order to please yourself mostly. Most customers would smile and go along, or smile and leave politely. Some may actually jump in your boat for a while until they hear a system properly set up.
Yes ... and no. Generally speaking, an amplifier with a low impedance will not cause a lean sound, but may enforce that characteristic of a speaker system that is lean sounding. What the extra resistance does is allow the cone to move with less control from the amplifier. Putting resistance in the line will make the speaker sound like it may have more bottom end, but would sound muddy or less controlled (because it is). That is also why some systems have bass when they shouldn't as opposed to a system that reproduces massive drum kicks, but the bass disappears when it should instead of "hanging on". If the speaker has a defect, buy a different speaker. That's the lesson of that story.
No Dave. I did not jump on you. I merely observed that I had an experience close to what you described, I mentioned it and then mentioned my experiences. It turns out that as you reached for more factors you though might be different from my situation that you actually homed in on almost exactly what my setup was. No one jumped on you. However, you were factually wrong when you claimed that resistance in the speaker cables made no difference. I guess this is where you became unglued.
Again a claim without evidence as you try to make up the rules as you go.
1. Nothing I have ever said here has violated the rules of physics and I haven't ignored those rules (as I sit here surrounded by a lot of costly equipment in my lab)
2. Your speakers have a point of resonance. The impedance is maximum there and there is also a lot of phase shift. The impedance of a single driver then increases due to the inductance of the voice coil. You can't change that.
So where does one buy these mythical speakers with no resonance or inductance in their voice coil?
Okay, that entire section from that quote down to where I talked about the forum is just a collection of silliness. It culminates with this gem:
This is of course completely wrong as any person who has designed a speaker system can tell you. Every tweeter and midrange drive has a resonant frequency just as much as they all have inductance in their voice coils. This is by definition of what makes an inductance. They are both a coil of wire wrapped around a pole piece. So they both have a rising impedance with frequency, and an impedance peak (hopefully) well below the frequency range that you use them at. I had to include zobel networks in order to have the passive crossover actually roll off the output from that driver. Same as the woofer. Now the only way a woofer differs from any other dynamic driver is that we use it to and below it's resonant frequency, but in all other respects it is handled the same way. It gets a zobel network too.
If I had to guess, this is probably where your early multi-way speaker systems failed. You didn't understand how important the resonant frequencies for midrange drivers and tweeters were. It would also seem that without zobel networks, you still had output from the woofers and midrange drivers above their crossover points. That wouldn't sound very good (which is why we take care with those things when we design a system). This statement does show clearly that you do not understand how dynamic speakers work. You should buy books by Douglas Weems. He will guide you through understanding how that stuff works. He isn't heavy on math, so it should be easy reading.
Thanks Dave, but I learned this material over 40 years ago and put what was learned to good practical use - and got paid for doing so. However, you are not just sharing your experiences. You attacked me, and continued a private exchange that I thought was done with. I certainly was not prepared to waste any more time on a lost cause that you represent to me. The biggest problem here is that your admittedly small section of believers has the same weight as the overwhelmingly large body of evidence from most speaker driver manufacturers, designers and home enthusiasts has. Your experiences are factually incorrect except for the one statement I will agree with. It sounds better to you. That's all you need have said, and I would support you on that.
Ahhh, no. My experiences were / are backed up by careful measurements and in agreement with published work from many authors. Also by casual listeners and the customers who purchased these systems. The last system I designed, everyone had to buy the wood, make their own cutting list, cut the material and do everything else on their own or as small groups. I sold the drivers, crossovers and plans. Everyone was very happy with the results. I deal in things I could prove, measure and find agreement with in text books. I even measured every driver for their own T/S parameters and every speaker system agreed with the projected performance. Too bad that was well over 20 years ago. Heck, over 30 now! We did not have computer programs. I wrote the first program on my Texas Instruments TI-58C calculator. The second was written in basic on my real IBM PC that had recently come out. Graphs came out of a pin feed impact printer (Epson LQ-1500). That was a nice printer.
Naw, that isn't what I said. What I said was that my measured, proved results that agreed with books on the subject trump your ad-hoc beliefs.
No where did I say that you couldn't come up with a system that sounded okay in select circumstances. I have also said that your methods and beliefs do not work in the majority of circumstances. That's fine. Dr Bose also had his beliefs that he championed, and he was a lot more successful with his principles than you are. My principles align with working science on the subject, so really what I have done is merely one small part of the giant whole of accepted, proved products. I'm not doing anything beyond what everyone else is doing, so I'm unremarkable. I'm also right by virtue of being part of the whole that has been proved correct through countless studies and experiments. You aren't arguing my methods. You are taking on the entire body of successful work by countless individuals who are more talented than I am. I wouldn't want to be you right now.
-Chris
No that is not true. A speaker and amp need to work together. An amplifier can provide more, the right amount, or too little damping. As i said earlier, that is the case with most speakers. But most speaker sis not all speakers. Some speakers/speaker boxes have the damping built in, drive with too low n output impedance and LF is MIA.
Accuracy. A word i have seen tossed around a lot. We know what the dictionary says, but what does it mean when you talk about a hifi? HiFis by their very nature (and the recordings you play) have so many flaws none are accurate.
What i thin you mean is that many (most) speakers are designed with the assumption there is a certain amount of electrical damping from the amplifier. If you have one of those speakers, then you need a low output resistance amplifier.
Here on the FR forum, many of the loudspeakers built have much less need of this, and too low an output impedance is not good, and leads to less flat FR (we assume flat FR is part of accurate).
And what follows is true for most speakers (althou there is a right value — larger is not always better), but we are talking full range loudspeakers (or active) some of which stray from that 99.9%.
dave
That is not ar all the case. It is a reality in some cases thou.
Your arguements are completely true with most hifi speakers. But we do not yet even know what Jefferies are. I susggested an option to consider and i get dumped on with physics restricted to the (large) part of the hifi landscape. I only point out tht Jefferies speaker smay be ioutside your experience. And that if it is, your arguments fall flat.
You were sure aggressive (and wrong).
From what yo have said to me in the past you have had little to no experience with fullrange speakers and certainly not of the current crop.
you were factually wrong when you claimed that resistance in the speaker cables made no difference.
No i did not. You said the R was too high, but i use similar everyday because it makes my speakers sound better… they are designed for less total damping from the amplifier to control the bass. In my case the R makes a good difference (and skinny/solid brings other benefits)
Not directly. But you have ignored a significant part of the space that does benefit from higher R.
For instance, with a current amp you have no termal compression. You have no back EMF. You are directly controlling the voice coile instead of thru an i?V converter that uses the speakers impedance as the R.
I only need a counterexample to show that is wrong. Here the impedance of a 2-way speaker in a BR enclosure)
But i do not think that is the case here. What i think is that depending on the speakers end up being, that some amount of extra R or higher output on the amp can complement the speaker impedance and improve the range. It uses regulat woofers and tweeter.
You might well have to make it Chris, it is a diy forum after all. The speaker from which the impedance plot above was taken is such a speaker. Not so mythical. And i have had many speakers thru here that benefit from higher amp output impedance (or some series R). And for speakers that want to see a high output impedance amplifier any horn loaded with a Fostex FExx6 driver.
Hard to say where that came from. My early multiways failed (we still enjoyed them) because i was a rookie and didn’t really know what i was doing. It would be interesting to hear some of your early speakers.
And what gives you that idea?
I learned a lot 40 years ago too. And i have kept learning since.
I argued against the points where you knowledge does not seem to extend. I attacked the ideas that you are calling as set in stone.
I might read the rest later, at the moment it sounds like you are blathering.
dave
Attachments
So, use a high resistance wire then reduce the resistance by cryo-treating it?
That's why I said your post needed qualifying. You rarely do that though, and you should, even more than most considering a high percentage of your posts are connected with the kind of speakers you sell
You just stated that a speaker and amplifier need to work together.....
How can they, if resistance between them interferes? - AKA by using flimsy wire.
A fraction of an ohm can introduce such a thing in the average speaker system.
Do some research on current and voltage feedback circuitry (variable damping) to understand my point.
It's published, out there on the net.
Bogen once used, as did some other manufacturers, a system to adjust this feedback loop using resistors of less than an ohm (.27 and .47 ohms) to modify feedback loops.
These resistors were in the negative side of the speaker connection along with a variable pot, actually "lifting" the negative side of the speakers above electrical ground.
This is similar to "motional feedback" used in some other amps.
It's a real thing, proven.
I'm certainly not going to say I know everything about speakers, however after decades in the audio business and professionally employed in service, I've experienced plenty of things by now.
Simple. Many (not all) wideband loudspeaker drive units were designed & intended for use with high output impedance amplifiers, e.g. many of the Fostex range, Lowthers etc. In the absence of said type of amplification, you can use some series R, either fixed, or preferably distributed to produce a ~ similar effect, artificially raising driver Q and lowering its mass corner frequency. This should naturally be designed into the enclosure loading, and it often is. No mysteries on that front, and why in system design amplifier output impedance, wire / connection resistance (& where relevant component resistance in passive filters) & the speaker type & load should be considered.
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Let's not. Wire threads only ever end one way, with two armed camps refusing to accept any alternate perspective or the possibility that nuances exist or may be implied that are not directly stated in the sentences that have been posted.
Because they are produced by commercial companies, and since the objective of a commercial company is to make a profit (which is not in itself a sin), they will do so by creating or using various features in order to sell product. That is the ultimate source; all other aspects are secondary.
Guys -life is too short. A suggestion: let it go.
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Maybe that's wishful thinking? I don't actually see that in this thread, so far. My main argument is with Dave's first post for reasons I've explained.
I think Matt's perspective is somewhat schewed, especially after his quite successful cable thread here:
Speaker Cable
On the whole I agree with you Scott, but perhaps we can say that very *few* cable threads end well, or perhaps that the overwhelming majority of cable threads go bad faster than they appear.
Speaker Cable
On the whole I agree with you Scott, but perhaps we can say that very *few* cable threads end well, or perhaps that the overwhelming majority of cable threads go bad faster than they appear.
Possibly because
1/ Nobody's asked yet
2/ The FR forum is not as well frequented as many others
3/ Speaker wire can take on greater significance for wideband drivers since its properties are often used for system optimising with low Q examples (a large proportion thereof), so it makes sense to keep it present providing it doesn't descend (like every wire thread I've seen that isn't hyper-specific and equally closely policed) into chaos. Personally, I'd get shot of it, but that is with full acknowledgement of my jaded sensibilities on the subject of wire threads, and noting that it is not for the likes of me to make such calls, but for the moderation team.
1/ Nobody's asked yet
2/ The FR forum is not as well frequented as many others
3/ Speaker wire can take on greater significance for wideband drivers since its properties are often used for system optimising with low Q examples (a large proportion thereof), so it makes sense to keep it present providing it doesn't descend (like every wire thread I've seen that isn't hyper-specific and equally closely policed) into chaos. Personally, I'd get shot of it, but that is with full acknowledgement of my jaded sensibilities on the subject of wire threads, and noting that it is not for the likes of me to make such calls, but for the moderation team.
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