... Do you have some form of prejudice towards cable threads, Scott?
I think I am sensing some emotional response of sorts here.
At any rate, allow me to quote DF96 on damping factor (relative/relevant to cable resistance):
About sums it up I think.
And also:
I think I am sensing some emotional response of sorts here.
At any rate, allow me to quote DF96 on damping factor (relative/relevant to cable resistance):
About sums it up I think.
And also:
Last edited:
Yes, I have a pejudice against speaker wire threads, since every single one that I have seen to date (other than, as noted, a handful that were highly focussed upon a single quantifiable factor & tightly policed to ensure they didn't stray from that) has been a gigantic waste of time for all concerned, and in the process often cause a great deal of completely unnecessary discord amongst members.
WRT damping factor, I don't use it myself. Not directly anyway; I stick with amplifier output impedance, wire & connection resistance rather than the lumped sum. That way, I can directly assess influence on, say, driver / system Q without conversions. The fewer processes / hoops you have to jump through, the less chance there is of errors creeping in.
Re the ability of an amplifier to 'drive' a speaker, most amplifiers can 'drive' most loudspeakers, but that does not necessarily mean they are a good electrical match. The issue here is of context, since what is often overlooked is that many (not all) wideband drive units were and continue to be specifically designed to be used with amplifiers that have an output impedance in a given range. Back in the 1940s - '50s for e.g., amplifiers with adjustable output impedances were quite common to allow better matching to the contemporary drivers & enclosures. Fast forward, the FExx6E series units for example anticipated being used on the end of an amplifier with an output impedance in roughly the 1.5ohms - 3ohms region, as one of their designers confirmed to me in Hong Kong a couple of years ago. Many of their current equivalents still do expect that; they are overdamped, with an excessively high mass-corner if used with a low output impedance amplifier & no other form of compensation, be it a fixed resistor or resistive wire. 18 years ago, Fostex demoed their then-new FE208ESigma in a back horn with big Accuphase solid state amplifiers. Not in itself a natural match; the LF response as-is would be out of balance. They brought it into balance by using a custom set of tungsten wiring that provided the desired amount of series R. Yes, you could add a resistor & get similar results from an electrical POV (not quite the same), but it made a point.
WRT damping factor, I don't use it myself. Not directly anyway; I stick with amplifier output impedance, wire & connection resistance rather than the lumped sum. That way, I can directly assess influence on, say, driver / system Q without conversions. The fewer processes / hoops you have to jump through, the less chance there is of errors creeping in.
Re the ability of an amplifier to 'drive' a speaker, most amplifiers can 'drive' most loudspeakers, but that does not necessarily mean they are a good electrical match. The issue here is of context, since what is often overlooked is that many (not all) wideband drive units were and continue to be specifically designed to be used with amplifiers that have an output impedance in a given range. Back in the 1940s - '50s for e.g., amplifiers with adjustable output impedances were quite common to allow better matching to the contemporary drivers & enclosures. Fast forward, the FExx6E series units for example anticipated being used on the end of an amplifier with an output impedance in roughly the 1.5ohms - 3ohms region, as one of their designers confirmed to me in Hong Kong a couple of years ago. Many of their current equivalents still do expect that; they are overdamped, with an excessively high mass-corner if used with a low output impedance amplifier & no other form of compensation, be it a fixed resistor or resistive wire. 18 years ago, Fostex demoed their then-new FE208ESigma in a back horn with big Accuphase solid state amplifiers. Not in itself a natural match; the LF response as-is would be out of balance. They brought it into balance by using a custom set of tungsten wiring that provided the desired amount of series R. Yes, you could add a resistor & get similar results from an electrical POV (not quite the same), but it made a point.
Last edited:
You're the first to mention romex (solid core wire put in walls during construction, used for electric power distribution in buildings), and I agree, its use for speaker wire would be inappropriate.
I've got a Peavey Rage 158 guitar amp, it has (among other unusual and patented innovations) a small value resistor between the speaker "-" connection and ground, and this point is sent as feedback to the input of the chip amp. This raises the amp's output impedance, allowing the speaker's resonances to ring more loudly, as it would if connected to a (higher output impedance) tube amp.
Of course, that's not a hi-fi application...
Last edited by a moderator:
If the speaker needs a bump up in the Q because the bass is lean. Smaller R is not a pursuit to be pursued on its own. There is a value that is optimum. If your speaker experience is not wide ranging then you well may not have run into any of these speakers. They are not all that common (yet).
How much R is in the 1st inductor in your XO? How many times hav eyou run across speaker designers having to adjust their bass alignment after they introduced an XO (i have seen this often)?
I have. Lots. This is what led me to understanding how current(-ish) amps — the subject we are really talking about. There is a single book that is a really good start. The Secret of Tube Amplifiers Revealed - and much more!
And here on the subject:
Current drive amplifier?
Current drive for Loudspeakers
LM1875 transconductance amp
High performance current drive power amplifier
It is very easy to go thru life and not knowingly come across a system that could use an amp with higher output impedance (or wire with higher R, or even series R added). Have you ever hooked an am up and said the sound is too lean? Maybe the real problem for the leaness was the amp had too low an output impedance and overdamped the speaker?
Here is one real-world approach to highish output impedance amps (or faking it with wire or dislreet R in a pinch).
http://wodendesign.com/downloads/King-of-Swingers.pdf
dave
Ben,
IIRC you use ESLs as the mains? That is a current hungry ap tha can very much benefit from fat wire.
Aside: since electrostats are largely capacitive any amp capable of driving it has to be able to source lots of current and sind P=VAcos(theta), and as a speaker becomes capacitive the last term approaches zero.
dave
This is exactly the type of ******* squabbling that has wearied me to the point of depression, and the subject is one that I think should be near the top of a list of prohibited subjects.
To answer Craig’s question - Dave might be surprised to know that some of the speakers sitting in his basement are not wired with #24 CAT5 strands -sometimes I had none on hand, and there’s two Home Depots closer to my home or former workshop than the top of Finlayson Arm Rd.
Occasionally I fantasize of hearing a truly objective blind comparison between amps / cables / DACs, coupling caps -try to pick an individual component that hasn’t at some point been postulated as pivotal to the performance of a system- but that’s tempered by the realization that there are far more important things with which to waste whatever remaining time I might have - like pulling weeds, cutting the grass, draining the battery on my iPad watching puppy videos.
Asteroid 2020 - just end it all now, please.
To answer Craig’s question - Dave might be surprised to know that some of the speakers sitting in his basement are not wired with #24 CAT5 strands -sometimes I had none on hand, and there’s two Home Depots closer to my home or former workshop than the top of Finlayson Arm Rd.
Occasionally I fantasize of hearing a truly objective blind comparison between amps / cables / DACs, coupling caps -try to pick an individual component that hasn’t at some point been postulated as pivotal to the performance of a system- but that’s tempered by the realization that there are far more important things with which to waste whatever remaining time I might have - like pulling weeds, cutting the grass, draining the battery on my iPad watching puppy videos.
Asteroid 2020 - just end it all now, please.
I have been fortunate to have listened to (and lived with) Daniel's (Duo here) variable output impedance amplifiers (near zero to near infinity output impedance with the turn of a pot). With a wide range of FR speakers, we found that optimum was different for every loudspeaker.
Besides having variable output impedance, these were very good amps — one based on the original diyAudio/chipamp.com/Audio Sector LM3875 chipamp, and a discreet version originally developed to drive the electron guns of a CRT (it was particulalrily good, wa sbecause he keeps improving it).
dave
I switched from using 16 gauge zip cord to Cat 5 for speaker wire and noticed something interesting. My wires are 8' long between amp and speaker. At first I went with one strand for each terminal. After listening for a bit what stood out was less precived harshness in the highs but also an increase in sibilance. I kept it this way for a month of listening then tried two strands per terminal and the increase in sibilance went away. I am using an ACA for the amp and a pair of fostex ff105wk speakers.
Dave,
You can't show a boxed speaker as an example of a speaker without resonance. Show me a driver (what I said) without a resonance or inductance.
When you define your answer outside of the normal confines of the question, you can argue white is black. This is your arguing style in general. Why not attempt to answer questions in the framework they were asked in. That would cut out lot of circular arguments and arrive at answers quickly.
Anyway, I'm dropping this because you effectively refuse to answer a question in a direct and honest way. I have real work to do in our real world. You can play word games with others if you wish.
-Chris
You can't show a boxed speaker as an example of a speaker without resonance. Show me a driver (what I said) without a resonance or inductance.
When you define your answer outside of the normal confines of the question, you can argue white is black. This is your arguing style in general. Why not attempt to answer questions in the framework they were asked in. That would cut out lot of circular arguments and arrive at answers quickly.
Anyway, I'm dropping this because you effectively refuse to answer a question in a direct and honest way. I have real work to do in our real world. You can play word games with others if you wish.
-Chris
Like cryo treated wire! In other words, he dosnt know because there is no changes that can effect the sound.
Last edited:
You ignore the real world example i already posted. Yes a woofer has a resonance… all of them. And given the direction speaker design has taken in the last 50 years driven by SS amps & lower cost, you will find few woofers with Qm less than 2 let alone below 1 as would be nice for a current amp.But as the example posted above shows a box can be built with little resonance (you can’t se eit in the magnitude plot but it does show up in the phase curve.
The confines of the OPs question are that he is using a FR speaker where the discusion of higher output impedance (or !equivalent) amps is very valid.
dave
As with any discussion of cable one has to be very wary of the snake-oil and it is is difficult to spearate th ewheat from the chaff.
dave
Is he? I wish you'd make your mind up. Anyway, high impedance amp may possibly be relevant, don't see how skinny high resistance wire cryo-treated to lower it's resistance is relevant though.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.