If you look at the math for the temperature of a voice coil versus the signal level you find that the single biggest factor is simply the mass of VC conductor material. Hence the bigger the VC the lower the thermal modulation. This is completely independent of the SPL capability, but its the SPL capability that drives Pro speakers to use more copper or Aluminium. So people often quote SPL as the reason for using Pro and that they don't need that much SPL, but its much more complicated than that.
As too how much "dynamics" is needed, the speaker should never be the limiting factor in the dynamics if accurate playback is desired. Once you live with a speaker that has superior dynamics, everything else sounds compressed. No matter what the SPL.
That is for sure!!
There is nothing like having properly designed speakers without limitations.
THanks for the model number, I know all about Zaph's site, I bought half the drivers listed on it (I use the B&C 6MD38-8 AND 18sound 6ND drivers over the scanspeak drivers) . but you are misquoting me on saying it sucks.
I posted that is sucks with respect too Dynamics compared to the TD12M woofer that John builds over @ Acoustic Elegance and no one can argue that point. You even proved it by having to add more drivers.
You will not get a disagreement out of me that multiple drivers of anything will have dynamics....line arrays are sweet!! The biggest problem with your mulitple driver for sensitivity theory is that you then need a ribbon tweeter to match the sensitivity or some shallow waveguide for the dome tweeter to increase its sensitivity.
Hmmm....Maybe I will buy 4 Revelator 7" drivers and use my extra Neopro5i ribbons I have unused. Then compare against my Neopro5i/PHL1120/TD12S custom design.
I have had the big towers with multiple 6 and 8" drivers and still the performance of the single 12" or 15" pro audio higher end driver is incredible.
Have you even had a chance to listen to speakers with such drivers? I would hope anyone posting in this thread have listened to both.
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I use to agree because that is all the general public ever will see published by companies.
Any expert speaker builder I know of never concern themselves with simple on axis FR plots.
Im no expert in building DIY speakers but I read enough and learned enough over the past many years to now know FR response isnt important actually compared to other measurements. Great sites like Zaphaudio.com have great measurements that people can get into the last one I ever look at is the FR plot. Too bad Zaph has went commercial so we won't see future measurements, except his own drivers 😉
You don't and its a perfect choice for your application. Its 3 times the cost of similar performance but its garunteed performance so if cost isnt the biggest factor its a great solution.
Several times people have posted that its all about the specific requirements for me the scanspeak will not meet my requirements, for you it does.
Of course the best nearfield monitors I have heard are built by Genelec
BTW has anybody more detailed information on their Coaxial-Waveguide-Thingy used in the new 8260? Genelec Oy - Genelec 8260A
Best, Markus
Nope but I would love to listen to them. Ilkka, who use to do great subwoofer testing on HTS now works for Genelec. I wonder if he still posts on HTS.
Hello doug20
I can see the point about a single on axis measurement having little value. You should really measure is several locations in your chosen "window" to get a more meaningful idea of what the speaker is really doing.
I am a little perplexed that you feel FR is not important? What measurements are more important in your opinion?? When I do my own DIY I look at the Step Response, CSD, and FR but I weigh the FR as a very important indication that I have my passive crossovers summed properly and my octave to octave tonal balance will be correct.
I use mostly Pro Drivers and many of mine are dual use and have been used in both Pro and Commercial applications.
Rob🙂
Good morning Mr. Geddes,
Interesting. Could it be that your application has some bearing on how you prioritize the importance of polar response? You've mentioned directivity as a positive quality, for minimizing room interactions, is that correct? For another application, however, would it be so critical? In the case of on-axis near-field monitoring, I wouldn't think polar response is *as* critical, but certainly I could be wrong. Headphone design, as another example, likely puts on-axis FR ahead (no pun intended!).
Hmm, an interesting design philosophy for sure. In other schools of thought, designers stay away from running a large drive 'too high' in frequency to avoid 'beaming'. How do you recommend listening to your type of system? Would it be to fill a large room at all locations, or would the listener sit in a sweet-spot of sorts?
Ah, but certainly you must agree that the components of a system are important also, I would argue they are equally so. A house of stone, and a house of cards: who's insurance premiums will be higher? 😛
Interesting. Could it be that your application has some bearing on how you prioritize the importance of polar response? You've mentioned directivity as a positive quality, for minimizing room interactions, is that correct? For another application, however, would it be so critical? In the case of on-axis near-field monitoring, I wouldn't think polar response is *as* critical, but certainly I could be wrong. Headphone design, as another example, likely puts on-axis FR ahead (no pun intended!).
Hmm, an interesting design philosophy for sure. In other schools of thought, designers stay away from running a large drive 'too high' in frequency to avoid 'beaming'. How do you recommend listening to your type of system? Would it be to fill a large room at all locations, or would the listener sit in a sweet-spot of sorts?
Ah, but certainly you must agree that the components of a system are important also, I would argue they are equally so. A house of stone, and a house of cards: who's insurance premiums will be higher? 😛
Of course on-axis (to the listener) frequency response is the number 1 priority. To sacrifice direct sound for other properties will never result in the best sound reproduction possible.
Best, Markus
Best, Markus
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All the systems I've heard using pro drivers have been somewhere between "Bad" and "Ludicrously awful". However, to be fair, most of these were either PA systems or very, very old. If anyone in the Madison, WI area wants to let me listen to their pro-based DIY efforts, I'd be very interested. 🙂
It's a long drive, but I have "Pro" stuff here in NC. Mostly Altec. My system is always in flux, but I could probably put together a good demo for you.
I think you make a good point as to why some many folks don't like the pro drivers. They have heard them in overdriven PA systems. They sound awful. And I should know, I used to mix on them! I never believed pro drivers could sound good, until the day about 25 years ago when I heard it done "right." Done right and used within reasonable limits, nothing sounds better. At least to my ears.
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I think you make a good point as to why some many folks don't like the pro drivers. They have heard them in overdriven PA systems. They sound awful. And I should know, I used to mix on them! I never believed pro drivers could sound good, until the day about 25 years ago when I heard it done "right." Done right and used within reasonable limits, nothing sounds better. At least to my ears.
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Yeah, thats a common opinion actually and there are some crap sounding PA stuff out there. Even though I own pro audio drivers, I do not consider them PA stuff at all.
You have to go experience some things Danley is doing to appreciate higher quality designs. His new DTS-10 sub is ground breaking stuff....nothing touches it in performance.
Neither would I. However, a speaker that can do a convincing job of recreating the sound of the original performance venue in my listening room, including the dynamics of even live trumpets is something I would like to listen to.
I suspect the emphasis on polar vs on axis response has a lot to do with whether the intended application of the speaker is more sound reinforcement or critically listening driven.
Several years ago, I made the jump from Chartwell LS3/5A's to JBL 15" and Altec/TAD large format alnico, so I see merit at both ends of the hi-fi/ pro 'spectrum'.
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No, even for critical listening you need to have polar data because reflexions need to be controlled (spectrum, level, angle, number, delay).
Best, Markus
There is more emphasis on polar response when you must provide uniform frequency response coverage over a specific included angle, as in a sound reinforcement application or possibly HT. An approximation of uniform on-axis response is more important in a critical listening application such as mixdown or home audio use where the initial waveform front is of greatest importance. Many 'hi-fi' speakers have wildly varying polar responses through their response ranges yet it doesn't seem to disqualify them from being highly regarded for their specific applications. (Just) one (of several) reason(s) I eventually went more the pro-sound driver implementation route was to put more emphasis on uniformity of off axis response across as much of the audio range as feasible, btw.
I neither said nor implied that either suddenly became unimportant or insignifiant in any way for a given application. What I was doing in my prior post was clarifying one basis for the two competing viewpoints that others had expressed in this thread.
I neither said nor implied that either suddenly became unimportant or insignifiant in any way for a given application. What I was doing in my prior post was clarifying one basis for the two competing viewpoints that others had expressed in this thread.
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What performance parameters do you find are 'superior', and when compared to what system? Do you have any objective measurements to support this?
"Highly regarded" by whom? I find double-blind tests more convincing.
Audio Musings by Sean Olive: Part 3 - Relationship between Loudspeaker Measurements and Listener Preferences
Best, Markus
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