Do you listen to your speakers from 100 m!? Or 20 m? Or 3 m?
I don't miss the point. It's obvious that 1-10KHz is the critical band and should always be the last to sacrified. Removing higher harmonic content from the original musical signal has clearly audible and significative effects. It is significant because our attention to sonic events works in differential mode. You may want to consider the brain selection and elaboration of information.
Following your line of reasoning, I could also say that you could remove frequencies below 80-100Hz because they are not so important according to our physiological hearing. In fact if you had at 80Hz the same sensitivity you have at 1KHz you would be in serious trouble. You will be listening to your heartbeat all the time! So why do you use a 15" woofer?
Last edited:
Earl,
I think you gave the right answer to the wrong question. Is or was it important for human survival to perceive frequencies as high as 20kHz? Apparently not. But music was never a tool for human survival (although some musicians live better than the rest of us). Music is a cultural development. Barry Blesser describes in his book ("Spaces speak") how music and the spaces in which music was played were always closely coupled. Spaces defined the music. So the question is "Can high frequncy content be a vital part of music"? and the answer has to be "Yes, it can". Now look how multitrack recording, close-miking and home sound reproduction changed music. Even if you have to be young to hear high frequency content, high frequency content can be part of music. The audio reproduction chain has to preserve that, not change it.
Best, Markus
I haven't contributed much lately to this conversation, but I find the debate extremely interesting and follow it every day. Just my two cents worth. 😀
AFAIK, Void designs it's own drivers, so no off-the-shelf stuff...
If I had the chance to design a box with any commonly available drivers, PHL would be probably my choice. Personally I'm a big fan of 6,5" pro mid drivers - what I like most is their ability to go high, so that critical 300...4000 Hz range is free from crossovers. Even cheap Eminence Alpha 6 is excellent if used correctly. Detailed, dynamic and low distortion; there simply is no match for it at this price point.
If I had the chance to design a box with any commonly available drivers, PHL would be probably my choice. Personally I'm a big fan of 6,5" pro mid drivers - what I like most is their ability to go high, so that critical 300...4000 Hz range is free from crossovers. Even cheap Eminence Alpha 6 is excellent if used correctly. Detailed, dynamic and low distortion; there simply is no match for it at this price point.
Here's a scenario where musical energy above 10khz can contribute to the overall experience that one probably wouldn't argue with. Or maybe one would, depending on who one is🙂 Consider a musical ensemble or orchestra with percussion instruments and brass at different distances from the microphones. Those at a few feet distance would present appreciably more HF energy than those farther way from the microphones because of air absorption and this effect due to absorption differentials would be available to the listener as an audible distance information cue.
Last edited:
The influence of ultrasound and infrasound on our emotional state can be pretty huge. For example, an echocardiogram consists of looking at the heart activity by ultrasound stimulus. Firstly this means that it does propagate easily through the body. In turn the heart has a preferential connection to the brain, obviously. Sounds are perceived/elaborated in many ways, not just through the ears.
Gentlemen,
Let us move on from the HF content debate, which appears to be going in circles. It seems as though there is some to discuss with respect to that topic - perhaps in its own thread? It would be nice if we could stay on topic.
Let us move on from the HF content debate, which appears to be going in circles. It seems as though there is some to discuss with respect to that topic - perhaps in its own thread? It would be nice if we could stay on topic.
Exactly, also on a hi-fi system, the fact that you can hear the sound from mic position and not 20m away from the performance, allow for the possibility to get better SQ from a good hi-fi system than at 20m away at a live show. Not claiming that a hi-fi can ever replace the feeling of a live event though.
I agree.
Im still waiting for a link to measurements showing hifi drivers are better.
Very interesting discussions by all participated.
Just a thought: the discussions can go on and on with the pros and cons of pro vs HiFi drivers. Many are based on excellent theories and experiences. Suerly they are correct in many cases but can they be biased as well? Is there any data?
One claimed that the Scanspeak 7" sucks while another claimed it is excellent. With regards to objective truth, logically the above two can't be right at the same time, so at least one of them was merely a subjective opinion.
Here is something that will clear some clouds:
If someone compares one of the best 7" pro drivers to the Scanspeak 7" revelator and produces all the major driver parameters, it will be more helpful for one to get an approximate answer to the pros and cons of pro vs HiFi drivers.
We need some data!
Just a thought: the discussions can go on and on with the pros and cons of pro vs HiFi drivers. Many are based on excellent theories and experiences. Suerly they are correct in many cases but can they be biased as well? Is there any data?
One claimed that the Scanspeak 7" sucks while another claimed it is excellent. With regards to objective truth, logically the above two can't be right at the same time, so at least one of them was merely a subjective opinion.
Here is something that will clear some clouds:
If someone compares one of the best 7" pro drivers to the Scanspeak 7" revelator and produces all the major driver parameters, it will be more helpful for one to get an approximate answer to the pros and cons of pro vs HiFi drivers.
We need some data!
its a good point about usefulness and size. smaller animals are tuned to higher frequencies while larger ones to lower frequencies because smaller animals need to hear things close to them while large animals need to hear things far from them. but this also has to do with the size of the organ used to hear. also has to do with the size of object of interest generating sound. also has to do with medium ( dolphins are pretty big but they're in the water so they use high pitched sounds ).
however none of that has to do with high end audio.
because high frequency sounds most certainly DO REACH US just try scratching your fingernails on a blackboard, or maybe welding two pieces of metal.
let's not pretend that all sounds in nature come from at least 100 feet away. much of he sound we hear comes from what we hold in our hands - so that's about 2 feet away.
Hi Doug,
You're right - facts would be helpful. This is more opinion, but I would tend to think neither is better per say, rather they have each been optimized towards different goals. Perhaps this hypothesis is incorrect, but I guess it's a place to start. Hmm, maybe one thing to do is dispel or support such notions.
For example, we could start with frequency response. Hypothesis: a well designed hi-fi driver may have an advantage here in terms of flattest response through the pass band. Would you like to dig up examples in support of, and contrary to that with me? I'll see if I can dig up some good manufacturer data later. I have to go for the moment though!
Jim
To come up with something conclusive is very hard.
The datasheets don't give sufficient details, not to say there are multiple criteria.
For example, we know that pro drivers have better thermal compression figure, but by how much comparing to a HiFi driver? and how much distortion it introduces with that much?
And we know a HiFi driver may have better frequency response. Again, by how much?
Then it comes to the question: would the thermal compression distort more or the less than non ideal frequency response?
Then these parameters can change. For example, a HiFi driver may sound better at low SPL but worse at high SPL.
This is only one example.
But when all the parameters are compared and analysed, we know what (i.e pro or HiFi) to pick to suit our applications.
Music is such a recent development in human evolution that it would have virtually no impact on the development of our hearing. Listen to enough crapping recordings over speakers that go to 40 kHz and in another million or so years our hearing will change to adapt to these new circumstances. As far as my position goes, I'll stay in the present circumstances for the time being (another 750,000 years or so probably).
Im not interested in the simple FR plot.
Impulse, CSD, Polar response are much more interesting.
We can alteast spot any possible issues obviously we do not conclude anything with just the measurements but you can no conclude anything without them either. You always need measurements and controlled listening tests to make conclusions.
I really try to be objective since subjectivity just doesnt teach anything and I want learn something daily.
I do not mind using the TD12M (12" woofer) vs the Scanspeak 7". Im not interested in winning the Pro audio driver is better actually, Im more interested in finding out why someone said the scanspeak is better. Measurements are need.
I do disagree with your opinion that we both can not be right because we both can (Our needs are different and a driver performance must meet those needs). We have to pick drivers based on our applications. I definitely know the TD12M is a better driver then the 7" scanspeak for my application, the measurements prove that already and others have acknowledged that the 7" scanspeak doesn't have the dynamics so the TD12M wins that part of the discussion.
The only part we need to figure out now is how the 7" is better for other applications.
What is the model # of that scanspeak. Madisound only has 8" scanspeak drivers.
I do have Acouton measurements maybe we could just use those. Its measurements are pretty good but I question its distortion levels and its a comparable priced woofer vs the TD12M which is about $300 shipped.
I was talking about music and not about perception. We hear stuff about 10kHz, it's part of our music, part of our culture, sound reproduction has to acknowledge that. Don't try to find an excuse for your aging hearing 😉
Best, Markus
Not interested? On-axis FR is a place to start at least. I wouldn't put polar response in that list ahead of FR, depending on the application I suppose. Well how about this - if you don't like considering one parameter at a time, what about picking similar drivers from both camps and comparing them on paper? I agree the value is somewhat limited, but certainly it's enough to entertain discussion, would you agree?
<OT mode>
Just one small addition to my previous post. thoriated gave a good example (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/147514-pro-vs-hifi-drivers-pros-cons-29.html#post1975913). The close-miked horn is his original and I would agree that indeed it is the original for that specific recording. Does it really matter that a real horn in an auditorium sounds different (because of air absorption, etc.)? I don't think so.
</OT mode>
Best, Markus
Just one small addition to my previous post. thoriated gave a good example (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/147514-pro-vs-hifi-drivers-pros-cons-29.html#post1975913). The close-miked horn is his original and I would agree that indeed it is the original for that specific recording. Does it really matter that a real horn in an auditorium sounds different (because of air absorption, etc.)? I don't think so.
</OT mode>
Best, Markus
- Status
- Not open for further replies.