Vikash said:
We were planning on Gypsying your Orions. And I suspect you did read that beffore the meet because on the day you never left them out of your sight for more than a few minutes.
Vik you have no consideration for others is all I'll say 😀
LOL. Those white sheets that I covered them with obviously fooled everyone when I left them on Saturday evening.
Spray job looks superb. I biefly contemplated spraying the boot on my FTO but thought better of it once I'd tried spraying some MDF cabs. Had I known it was easier I may have given it a go. Now that the suns out, I'm sure I'll try my hand at it again with another project...
Spray job looks superb. I biefly contemplated spraying the boot on my FTO but thought better of it once I'd tried spraying some MDF cabs. Had I known it was easier I may have given it a go. Now that the suns out, I'm sure I'll try my hand at it again with another project...
ShinOBIWAN said:
Nexa - yes, PPG - no.
The 1K clear I was using is also the Upol product. I've now got some of their 2K version, but I've not tried it yet (still haven't got a hose for the mask).
As soon as I can sort that out I'll be releasing more dangerous chemicals into the atmosphere than a bunch of rugby lads after a night out on the beer. 😉
The bonnet looks great BTW. I've sprayed a couple of metal PC cases, and yes, it's much easier than MDF.
Vikash said:
Yikes! It's the rozzers! Leg it! 😀
Ant,
The only location available to me for an air compressor is in the attic of my golf cart garage. During the summer the outside temperature is 95* F and higher which puts the attic temprature at 130*F and higher. Will this work?
Ray
The only location available to me for an air compressor is in the attic of my golf cart garage. During the summer the outside temperature is 95* F and higher which puts the attic temprature at 130*F and higher. Will this work?
Ray
sploo said:
PPG = Pittsburgh Paint.
http://www.ppg.com/car_autocoat/
Hugh world-wide manufacturer.
I referenced them back in post #299.
Gordon, have you had chance to try the compressed air vs. turbine yet? My mate has just switched over to a Titan turbine (think it was a 3 turbine) and its very good, much better than that ICI one I had. I think the HVLP turbines are really picky about the gun that goes with them. This Titan job has a neat gun with a really nice aircap design, there's certainly some thought gone into it as it sprays beautifully. I'm not 100% sure but I reckon the price was around £700 so I guess it had better be good.
I still prefer compressed air but with the right gun I have to say there's there's not much in it.
More spraygun related nonsense; You know how men tend to collect toy action figures, cars or women? I think I've got unchecked and subconscious addiction to spray guns. I bought 2 more off ebay the other day and it wasn't until they'd arrived and I'd stuck them on the shelf that I realised and asked myself "Why do you need 4 guns?". I couldn't find an answer... Hmm. They're all very nice though 😀
One of those I bought was a SATA Jet RP - a legendary clearcoat gun (see how I'm justifying the purchase with extravagant claims?). The other was a DevilBiss GTI-Millennium.
Any news on the test blocks? Even if we don't have a solution just yet, is there a winner that comes close?
I still prefer compressed air but with the right gun I have to say there's there's not much in it.
More spraygun related nonsense; You know how men tend to collect toy action figures, cars or women? I think I've got unchecked and subconscious addiction to spray guns. I bought 2 more off ebay the other day and it wasn't until they'd arrived and I'd stuck them on the shelf that I realised and asked myself "Why do you need 4 guns?". I couldn't find an answer... Hmm. They're all very nice though 😀
One of those I bought was a SATA Jet RP - a legendary clearcoat gun (see how I'm justifying the purchase with extravagant claims?). The other was a DevilBiss GTI-Millennium.
Any news on the test blocks? Even if we don't have a solution just yet, is there a winner that comes close?
ShinOBIWAN said:
Not properly. I've been hugely busy for the last few weeks, and I've only just managed to get my hands on some low toxic hose and connectors.
This evening I've setup all the connectors, hoses and filter and tried both the air-fed mask and that gun you gave me (no paint, just putting some air through them).
The compressor will just about keep up with the mask, so use of 2K paints should now possible.
The amount of air you can get through the gun is much more than what my turbine delivers, so I can certainly believe it will atomise paint far better. Shame I don't have a compressor big enough to run both!
Do you have a manual for the gun, as I've not been able to find one on Kestrel's website?
ShinOBIWAN said:
You need help mate! 😀
ShinOBIWAN said:
All the recent test blocks are still way too soft to sand. I can only assume I put too much of the urethane on too quickly, as a separate block I've got (with a very thin coat) is now reasonably set. I'm eyeing up the 2K version on paints4u...
No change in the lines really; the urethane only block will need a sanding and another coat to make it a fair test. The varnish primed block shows clear signs of the lines, and the G4 primed block has some subtle signs.
However, the G4 block is pretty good, and I do wonder if it's finished 'moving', such that a sand plus a clearcoat would be enough to make it smooth (and the lines wouldn't come back).
When I get time, I might try a gentle sand on those blocks (even though they're soft) then put on some 2K clearcoat, and we'll see.
Of course, the lines may only be that subtle because I've put on too much (thick) paint. 🙁
Ray Collins said:
Sorry Ray I'd missed your post. I'll have a go at answering.
From a safety perspective that's perfectly OK Ray. Receivers are rated to much higher temperatures than those before they become a potential bomb.
One point to make is that as temperature goes up less compressed air will be stored because air expands under heating. The pressure cut off valve in the regulator will ensure only a safe amount is stored and should a full receiver experience heating and a subsequent pressure build up then the pressure release valve on the regulator will bring it back down to tolerance levels quickly.
Perhaps the only issues I can see are that a) you'll be spraying with warm/hot air and this can affect finish quality in the form of dry spray(the atomised paint is dry before it hits the work and you get a layer of dust especially noticable on the overspray) and in extreme cases blistering and pin holing. You can buy refridgerating units in which the warm/hot air passes through a series of air lines which are cooled, the result is that your spraying with condition air. These aren't particularly cheap.
b) Your compressor, if mounted in the same area as the receiver, will be running very hot without some form of cooling. I'd expect it to shorten the life of the machine.
Finally c) You may need a long run of air line. For every 10m you need to allow an extra 1 bar of pressure to account for pressure drop. This is on top of your air tools requirement.
If you can get a seperate receiver tank in your loft space and have the compressor in a cooler spot with an air line running upto the receiver then it should be fine. Maybe using fixed copper tubing that runs partly under the ground to cool the air instead of buying an expensive refrigerating unit.
Ant,
Thanks for the reply...plenty to think through. Regarding the cooling needs....I can always use the condenser coil from my still.
Ray
Thanks for the reply...plenty to think through. Regarding the cooling needs....I can always use the condenser coil from my still.
Ray
Gordon, I was chatting with that guy from Iwata again today and we got onto the subject of 2k and air fed masks.
Do you have any neighbours? I ask because its illegal to spray 2k in a domestic setting, should anyone catch a wiff of the fumes and something adverse happens then your liable for fairly severe criminal prosecution. Didn't know about this myself but made perfect sense once it was explained to me.
Another thing is that unless the air is properly filtered then, and this is worse case scenario, you can end up killing yourself or developing an asthma like condition. There's fumes released from the chemical reactions/breakdown within the compressor and these are fed to your mask and lungs. A carbon filter and moisture filter isn't enough. You need 3 filters - coalescing filter, carbon(usually attached to the belt) and a moisture filter.
Sorry for the doom and gloom(again) but felt that I should let you know.
Do you have any neighbours? I ask because its illegal to spray 2k in a domestic setting, should anyone catch a wiff of the fumes and something adverse happens then your liable for fairly severe criminal prosecution. Didn't know about this myself but made perfect sense once it was explained to me.
Another thing is that unless the air is properly filtered then, and this is worse case scenario, you can end up killing yourself or developing an asthma like condition. There's fumes released from the chemical reactions/breakdown within the compressor and these are fed to your mask and lungs. A carbon filter and moisture filter isn't enough. You need 3 filters - coalescing filter, carbon(usually attached to the belt) and a moisture filter.
Sorry for the doom and gloom(again) but felt that I should let you know.
ShinOBIWAN said:
Yea, but what he didn't tell you is that many pro spray shops (the ones I've spoken to anyway) admit that they extract the air from the spraying area without any filtering. 😱
These practices are actually very common - woodshops often eject air full of MDF (into outside containers) with no filtering at all. The sad thing is it's cheaper to eject cooled/heated air that's contaminated (and cool/heat more for your workshop) than it is to filter and return it.
I've been setting up the breathing gear specifically so I can spray in an enclosed* space, and not cause problems. It would also be at least 20m from the nearest neighbour.
* I don't plan on blowing myself up either!
ShinOBIWAN said:
Thanks for the info - I have two of the three, but not a coalescing filter. I was taking a look at them... bit pricey, but I guess I'll have to splash out.
I'd only be using it for a few minutes, and not that often, so I might get away with it... or I might not... still better than breathing isocyanates I guess.
Got time to do some spraying this afternoon...
I took a few of the better blocks from a previous test (glued and primed with various products, all coated in black cellulose), and the varnish and G4 primed blocks that had been sprayed in white urethane. All were given a few coats of 2K clear coat.
The urethane has wrinkled quite a bit, which I'm pretty sure is because it's still really soft. The blocks are on small stands (for spraying) and where the stands had some oversprayed urethane (thin, so now dry) that didn't wrinkle.
I also took the raw MDF block that had been sprayed with urethane and gave it another coat. I also had a test block around that was still raw MDF, so I gave that a first coat at the same time.
The clear coat was sprayed using the turbine gun, which doesn't do a bad job of it, and I was wearing the mask. Very impressed with it - no smell at all whilst spraying, which was really obvious when I'd finished, and went back to have a look at the blocks (definite chemical smell).
The urethane was applied using the compressor with the Kestrel gun, and a charcoal mask. Wow! The difference between the (cheapish) turbine and compressed air is incredible! So much better atomisation. The coats go on much better, and it's not like the paint is being 'spat' onto the object, as with the turbine.
This does give me a difficult dilema - stick with 1K basecoat and use compressed air, or use 2K and have to use the turbine... or buy a second compressor so I can run a gun and the mask at the same time.
The 1K isolack does seem to go on much better (thin coat, but covers nicely, which it wasn't doing with the turbine) so perhaps it will be practical to stay with 1K.
I think it's well worth giving all the blocks a good few weeks to cure, and I'll report on them in due course.
I took a few of the better blocks from a previous test (glued and primed with various products, all coated in black cellulose), and the varnish and G4 primed blocks that had been sprayed in white urethane. All were given a few coats of 2K clear coat.
The urethane has wrinkled quite a bit, which I'm pretty sure is because it's still really soft. The blocks are on small stands (for spraying) and where the stands had some oversprayed urethane (thin, so now dry) that didn't wrinkle.
I also took the raw MDF block that had been sprayed with urethane and gave it another coat. I also had a test block around that was still raw MDF, so I gave that a first coat at the same time.
The clear coat was sprayed using the turbine gun, which doesn't do a bad job of it, and I was wearing the mask. Very impressed with it - no smell at all whilst spraying, which was really obvious when I'd finished, and went back to have a look at the blocks (definite chemical smell).
The urethane was applied using the compressor with the Kestrel gun, and a charcoal mask. Wow! The difference between the (cheapish) turbine and compressed air is incredible! So much better atomisation. The coats go on much better, and it's not like the paint is being 'spat' onto the object, as with the turbine.
This does give me a difficult dilema - stick with 1K basecoat and use compressed air, or use 2K and have to use the turbine... or buy a second compressor so I can run a gun and the mask at the same time.
The 1K isolack does seem to go on much better (thin coat, but covers nicely, which it wasn't doing with the turbine) so perhaps it will be practical to stay with 1K.
I think it's well worth giving all the blocks a good few weeks to cure, and I'll report on them in due course.
Gordon
Sounds like your set for the 2k. Like you say, your only spraying briefly and you've already got all the important safety measures in place, with the exception of a coalescing filter.
Not really applicable to you since you have a full air fed but I also found out you can get a new type of respirator that will filter isocyanates for around 40 hours. It sounds cosher as they've gone through some kind of certification process. When they're not in use you pop them in a sealable bag so as to preserve the remaining filtration. Cost is around £30 for the startup kit and replacement filters are about £20 a pair and the pre-filters are about the same for a pack of 20.
I've got 5 DVD's on finishing. They're pretty good and I've picked up quite a few tips, its also impressive to watch the pro's make it all look so easy. There's a good few hours worth to watch and covers a lot of topics including these:
Waterbased Paints
Priming
Clearcoat
Basecoat
Gun Setup
Prep work
Sanding
Masking
Spot Repair
Blending
Fadeouts
Custom Painting
Health and Safety
Colour Sanding
Buffing
Fine Finishing
Step by Step of a Full Car Respray
Not all of it is relevant to what we're doing but a good chunk of it is. Let me know if you want a copy and I'll burn some discs for you.
BTW They're made by pro's/enthusiasts for the benefit of the spraying community and they're copyright free - no issues with piracy.
Sounds like your set for the 2k. Like you say, your only spraying briefly and you've already got all the important safety measures in place, with the exception of a coalescing filter.
Not really applicable to you since you have a full air fed but I also found out you can get a new type of respirator that will filter isocyanates for around 40 hours. It sounds cosher as they've gone through some kind of certification process. When they're not in use you pop them in a sealable bag so as to preserve the remaining filtration. Cost is around £30 for the startup kit and replacement filters are about £20 a pair and the pre-filters are about the same for a pack of 20.
I've got 5 DVD's on finishing. They're pretty good and I've picked up quite a few tips, its also impressive to watch the pro's make it all look so easy. There's a good few hours worth to watch and covers a lot of topics including these:
Waterbased Paints
Priming
Clearcoat
Basecoat
Gun Setup
Prep work
Sanding
Masking
Spot Repair
Blending
Fadeouts
Custom Painting
Health and Safety
Colour Sanding
Buffing
Fine Finishing
Step by Step of a Full Car Respray
Not all of it is relevant to what we're doing but a good chunk of it is. Let me know if you want a copy and I'll burn some discs for you.
BTW They're made by pro's/enthusiasts for the benefit of the spraying community and they're copyright free - no issues with piracy.
sploo said:
Told you 🙂
After seeing that Titan HVLP setup I have to say that some of the expensive turbines are also very good. However if you want the best finishing results at sane prices I'd look into that second compressor with a bigger tank, 3hp with 150ltr would be nice. You'll pay around £170 for one of those.
Oh and if you think the Kestrel is good, I'll have to send you the SATA and Iwata to have a go with. 😀
ShinOBIWAN said:
That sounds good. I wasn't aware there were any passive devices that could protect against isocyanates. Do you have any more info about them?
ShinOBIWAN said:
Thanks, I'd like to see them - I've sent a mail to your hotmail account with my address.
ShinOBIWAN said:
Yep - consider me a convert to air. I was taking a look at the test blocks today, and the urethane sprayed with the Kestrel has a nice even coat (that'll still take a fingernail) but looks promising.
The 2K clearcoat (sprayed with the turbine) is nowhere near as good, but has already set as hard as months old 1K clearcoat.
The only thing that concerns me is that the urethane coated with clearcoat has gone a cream colour.
I was thinking about the coverage of the urethane when I first sprayed it. It was mainly over the G4 and varnish blocks, and it does take a few coats before it sticks and covers well. Because high solids auto primer isn't a complete moisture barrier, I still think the G4 would be needed, so I'm wondering about a G4 + primer + urethane (possibly with clearcoat to finish) combination.
BTW What compressor have you spotted for 170 that's got a 150 litre tank?
sploo said:
The brand of the masks are Gerson - these are the only ones to have passed 40 hour B1 certification. Don't bother with anything else as they only reliably filter isocynates for around 15 minutes.
Cheapest I have found is from a seller on ebay:
Mask
Replacement Filters
Replacement Pre-Filters
That sounds like a good amount of work. At least its one workable solution. The veneering approach I took isn't 100% perfect either, maybe 90-95% if you lay a lot of primer down over it.
That Iwata guy deals with all kinds of folks up and down the country. He was telling me about this furniture finishing product manufacturer and he was certain there was an MDF primer sealer that would be suited to the laminations I showed him. Unfortunately he was also pretty sure it was a 2k product so that's me out of the running there. But I'll post the info here when he gets back to me with it.
Erm, did I say £170? I meant £270. Easy to get those two mixed up 🙄
The one I had in mind was this :
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AIR-COMPRESSO...ryZ30906QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
The big receiver means that the motor probably won't kick in at all for a single coat on a small floorstander.
Keep your eyes on ebay as there's compressors coming and going all the time and they're often fairly cheap for the second hand ones. The twin 3hp motor types are the most desirable for us single phase folks and therefor always seem to hold their prices very well, if you can then this is the machine to lust after. 🙂 If not then keep looking and you'll find something fairly quickly, I picked that b-stock Axminster one up off of there for a good price - its just about the right spec for the DIY speaker spraying not a car though. The only problem is that most folks selling the second hand ones don't want to even consider posting so you'll likely need to find someone local.
sploo said:
Hi Sploo,
Strictly speaking, spraying urethane requires air feed; it has isocyanates (in lower levels than the 2K version).
Urethane is derived from the reaction product of an isocyanate component and a synthetic resin blend component.
ShinOBIWAN said:
Interesting that they note, "N.B. 'Government legislation states that anybody spraying with isocyanates should always use a positive pressure air fed full face respiratory breathing system for full protection'. ". Though they then follow it with a funny comment about ducks. 😉
One thing I would note about them is that even the air-fed half face units are not rated for isocyanates, because you're supposed to protect your eyes - which only a full face mask will do.
I suppose if those masks are OK, then you could chuck on a pair of swimming goggles!
ShinOBIWAN said:
It was largely bourne out of the fact that the urethane takes a bit of work to stick to the G4. Having said that, the raw MDF block coated in just urethane may be a solution - time will tell.
ShinOBIWAN said:
Having discussed the issues with the European Panel Federation, and a few furniture guys, everyone's sure there is a solution, but can't ever tell me exactly what it is!
If he does give you a product name then obviously I'd be very interested.
BTW You have that big Axminster compressor now, but you've also got the smaller Sealey unit (from that photo you posted on your LGT thread). Would that run a mask? If you didn't want to mess around with 2nd hand masks and making up your own hoses, you could get a complete kit here: http://www.justoffbase.co.uk/Air-Fed-Breathing-Mask-Complete-Kit-to-BSEN270-Sealey-SSP200K
ShinOBIWAN said:
Yea. The irony is - if I could run a three phase line down the garden, and a long hose back up, I could get a compressor the size of a small car hidden away down the end (a good 30m from the house). One of these methinks: http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=60312&ts=16211# 😀
One thing I forgot to mention in my last post - I was thinking about what you'd said regarding the SATA and Iwata guns being much better than the Kestrel. Considering the step up from the turbine to the Kestrel, those expensive guns must be superb. How much air do they need?
MJL21193 said:
Damn... that's not good news. I took another look at the health and safety datasheets for the 1K and 2K Isolack products. Rather unhelpfully, they both contain the same text for respiratory protection:
"Apply technical measures to comply with the occupational exposure
limits.
This should be achieved by a good general extraction and -if
practically feasible- by the use of a local exhaust ventilation.
If the occupational exposure limits cannot be met, in exceptional
cases suitable respiratory equipment should be worn only for a short
period of time."
Frankly, if I sorted out another compressor (so I could use the mask and spray 2K with air) I'd probably use the mask for all paints anyway. I'd just hoped I wouldn't need it for the 1K urethane.
Another prod in the direction of waterbased. Just a shame it's so expensive from paints4u. Ant - are you buying it from them, or do you have a cheaper source?
sploo said:
I think paints4u are cheap on somethings but a little expensive for others.
These are the ones I've been using recently:
Spray Centre
These are based in Sheffield so its great to be able to jump in the car, take a 15 minute ride and sound the guys out about products, finishes and techniques. They're all friendly and take an interest in what your doing. They also deal in Iwata guns at nice prices.
Ebay
Its pot luck here really. I bought a load of quality Nexa primer and clearcoat paints off there as well as miscellaneous bits such as a gun holder, panel wipe etc.
Custom Paint Shop
These folks are great for waterbased custom finishes. The main brand they carry is the highly respected Auto Air. The range of finishes available from the Auto Air range is simple incredible and you can mix for other effects. I'd highly recommend buying the colour sample book for £28 and this shows their entire range. I suspect once you watch that custom painting DVD I've sent you, you'll be blown away and want to try this stuff out for yourself - I certainly was.
And of course Paints4u who I really only use for the waterbased stuff and the Rage range of paints.
Let me know if you find a cheap source of waterbased paint. Be careful, there's a lot of underperforming cheap rubbish about I've been told. The market leaders are PPG, Auto Air and Lechler in the waterbased arena. This is information from Rod at Iwata and they liase with manufacturers and test paint products with their guns so I trust he's giving good advice.
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