If its physical then it can be measured, wasn't that your point? Measuring with real music as test signals is germane to audio reproduction.
Now if you want to change your stated principle that's fine. Is it we can measure anything and everything physical to orders of magnitude below audibility so long as its easy to measure?
EDIT: Its that I think you're trying to put the onus on Rick to measure stuff that's hard to measure. What also seems likely is that if he did manage to measure an effect and the number was small-ish, it would be dismissed as inaudible. Next after that often comes demands for professional quality ABX DBT to 'prove' audibility. I say these things not particularly in reference to you personally, its that I've been around the forum long enough to have seen where these things tend to go.
Now if you want to change your stated principle that's fine. Is it we can measure anything and everything physical to orders of magnitude below audibility so long as its easy to measure?
EDIT: Its that I think you're trying to put the onus on Rick to measure stuff that's hard to measure. What also seems likely is that if he did manage to measure an effect and the number was small-ish, it would be dismissed as inaudible. Next after that often comes demands for professional quality ABX DBT to 'prove' audibility. I say these things not particularly in reference to you personally, its that I've been around the forum long enough to have seen where these things tend to go.
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No. Still the fact is that as of today we don't yet know how to measure everything people can hear. We don't even know exactly what it is we would need to measure. Its not just me saying that. Dr. Earl Geddes has pointed much the same.
So here is my position: Everything is physical, and everything that is physical is in principle measurable. That doesn't mean we know how to measure every audible effect today. If we did, we wouldn't arguing about wire and that kind of stuff. IME wire can affect sound in a clearly obvious way, and I don't mean pathological wire either. I didn't used to believe that until I reluctantly did the experiment to verify there would be no difference.
So here is my position: Everything is physical, and everything that is physical is in principle measurable. That doesn't mean we know how to measure every audible effect today. If we did, we wouldn't arguing about wire and that kind of stuff. IME wire can affect sound in a clearly obvious way, and I don't mean pathological wire either. I didn't used to believe that until I reluctantly did the experiment to verify there would be no difference.
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@Tombo
We've so scrambled our holiday celebrations this year due to Covid -- tomorrow is gonna be "Christmas Day"... through a barrier -- that I'm reminded of this conversation (from Dickens for the reference-concerned of you) with respect to perception:
"Why do you doubt your senses?"
"Because," said Scrooge, "a little thing affects them. A slight disorder of the stomach makes them cheats. You may be an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potatoe. There's more of gravy than of grave about you, whatever you are!"
Last year I had my first surgery (and anesthetic). The illusions I experienced as I came out of the anesthetic were pretty remarkable... and seemed so real (and unreal). I don't want to be held accountable for things I said in those first few hours either. My whole body has had a profound lasting reaction to having my chest cracked open and my legs invaded by the harvester. It's now an undiscovered territory. A lot depends on your point of view and your observation point.
Does anyone have old Ben Kenobi on speed dial?
The troubleshooting offered here is generally remote and depends on the welcoming participation and efforts of the first-person perceiver, not the general forum population. Without that...
A perceived issue might be real or imagined. Sound problem solving techniques can help distinguish which is which. Real problems are amenable to real solutions.
And, as suggested...
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
-- Upton Sinclair
We've so scrambled our holiday celebrations this year due to Covid -- tomorrow is gonna be "Christmas Day"... through a barrier -- that I'm reminded of this conversation (from Dickens for the reference-concerned of you) with respect to perception:
"Why do you doubt your senses?"
"Because," said Scrooge, "a little thing affects them. A slight disorder of the stomach makes them cheats. You may be an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potatoe. There's more of gravy than of grave about you, whatever you are!"
Last year I had my first surgery (and anesthetic). The illusions I experienced as I came out of the anesthetic were pretty remarkable... and seemed so real (and unreal). I don't want to be held accountable for things I said in those first few hours either. My whole body has had a profound lasting reaction to having my chest cracked open and my legs invaded by the harvester. It's now an undiscovered territory. A lot depends on your point of view and your observation point.
Does anyone have old Ben Kenobi on speed dial?
The troubleshooting offered here is generally remote and depends on the welcoming participation and efforts of the first-person perceiver, not the general forum population. Without that...
A perceived issue might be real or imagined. Sound problem solving techniques can help distinguish which is which. Real problems are amenable to real solutions.
And, as suggested...
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
-- Upton Sinclair
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Not fact, just opinion. What is clear though is that there is yet no way to measure how each individual perceives sounds. From what you have told about your preferences I'm quite sure that our hearing is different.
Yes, because our unreliable brain is interpreter of reality, and everyone has a different impression.
However, we do understand physics to some small extent. Would you try to answer what must be questioned in case of power cord burn-in effect. Rick hears that as well.
I don't know. One of the things I might try to check may seem far fetched but it would be to measure DA in the insulation. DA is something that seems to have more than one time constant. We know that it can be modeled as an RC ladder network over short periods of time. But big high voltage caps have to safety wired in a shorted condition even after they have been carefully shorted out. There are still some trapped electrons that migrate out with a longer time constant. To some extent I have seen the same effect low voltage applications.
There may be other things to measure too. EM forces in cable are small but associated small mechanical motion has been measured.
Maybe there are some other things that haven't come to mind yet. But its probably pretty clear that even if such things were measured, what tends to come next are the demands for professional publication quality ABX DBT.
Nobody has said that power cables could not have different characteristics that are measurable. However the issue at hand is whether or not these can have audible impact. Since Rick and you seem to discard measurements that show no audible impact on DC output a controlled listening test is the only proper way to determine audibility .
Other components in the chain seem to benefit (change) with use. Loudspeakers seem obvious likely (undisputed) candidates.
But I've just read that, for example, the sound of Wayne's BA2018 linestage develops (improves) through the first hours of use. Why is that? Capacitors forming? (My current former preamp, a Leach, was on all the time... until I noticed one of the regulators looking crispy).
Perhaps one or two of those component mechanisms apply? I'm just throwing darts at the target whilst blindfolded.
But I've just read that, for example, the sound of Wayne's BA2018 linestage develops (improves) through the first hours of use. Why is that? Capacitors forming? (My current former preamp, a Leach, was on all the time... until I noticed one of the regulators looking crispy).
Perhaps one or two of those component mechanisms apply? I'm just throwing darts at the target whilst blindfolded.
Of course. Everybody agrees on that. The only exception people seem to make is when they personally hear an effect that is 'obvious.' Then they say ABX DBT is not needed.
Unless you are claiming that the power cable effect is so obvious that DBT is not needed what's your issue with DBT in this case?
@bohrok2610
The particular question is whether or not the characteristics of the cable change with use and how -- maybe the electrons jiggle in a different pattern whilst supporting the wave fields -- and then, could that have an effect down the line.
One hopes (expects) that with optimal DC creation -- I'm thinking super regulators, for instance -- whatever happens in the AC power cord is immaterial.
The particular question is whether or not the characteristics of the cable change with use and how -- maybe the electrons jiggle in a different pattern whilst supporting the wave fields -- and then, could that have an effect down the line.
One hopes (expects) that with optimal DC creation -- I'm thinking super regulators, for instance -- whatever happens in the AC power cord is immaterial.
@Markw4
The BA2018? You can see it here: https://diyaudiostore.com/products/waynes-ba18-pre-amp
This was just a suggested example... because someone mentioned burn in improvements. And I have no idea about the mechanisms that might be involved. Just guessing that whatever they are they might apply.
The BA2018? You can see it here: https://diyaudiostore.com/products/waynes-ba18-pre-amp
This was just a suggested example... because someone mentioned burn in improvements. And I have no idea about the mechanisms that might be involved. Just guessing that whatever they are they might apply.
Yes, capacitors are first suspects. I experience burn-in phenomena only with complex electronic devices, never with cords or wires. IMO, for new audio electronics, more important part plays our ear/brain accommodation to slightly different sound, perceived as burn-in improvement.
For me, my audio system always sounds best at the end of day, after long listening session. It’s sometimes hard to switch it off. Just one song more.
Its hard and its expensive to do to publication quality. It also takes a lot of practice on the part of the test subject. There is no question that it is more difficult than sighted listening. However when an effect is real, small, yet audible to some people under some conditions, with enough time and effort someone can learn how to hear it when blinded. In other words, its so onerous to undertake that there has to be a really good reason to do it. Maybe it would help if the person wanting to read the publication would volunteer to pay for the cost of producing it. Might then be an onerous burden for that person too. IMHO almost no one would be willing to do it. There would have to be really good reason for doing it. Settling arguments in internet hobby forums is probably not a really good reason in the minds of most people.
The first claim (in post #21) was that power cables can have audible impact. The "burn-in" claim (i.e. change of characteristics with use) came later.
@bohrok2610
OK. Both questions are of interest and related.
The immediate present question was burn in but...
OK. Both questions are of interest and related.
The immediate present question was burn in but...
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