this HLA seems ancient.
i feel bad about even being inspired by the Marquis system because it is discontinued. i am trying to cleanse my design of its influence.
my system is meant to be the absolute cutting edge and even be designed around DSP technology that doesn't exist yet ... NOT be a clone of something from the 80s.
also, even somebody as insane as me understands that i am not a burning man festival or woodstock festival but a guy with a living room. i am NOT trying to build an array - i am in fact keeping to a SINGLE compression midrange. only the frequency bands that need arrays to keep up with the midrange are getting arrayed.
it's basically supposed to be a point source in the critical range that slips into array territory below the horns and at the very top.
there is not much sense in arraying horns. arraying is in itself a form of horn loading. both techniques are used to increase airload mass. the point of horns is to avoid arrays but sometimes it is impossible and arrays must be used.
the system is getting redesigned with or without anybody's input. as i explained i keep redesigning it over and over in my mind. have zero intention of building what somebody tells me to build but every time somebody makes an argument i reflect on it and this reflecting ultimately influences the course of my thinking and how the system gets redesigned. so on one hand i will reject everything you guys say but on the other hand everything you say will on some level get imprinted in my mind somewhere and ultimately influence my thinking.
i am not anybody's slave. i don't follow advice. i collect information. if somebody shares and idea i haven't thought about before i will save this idea to my memory. most of what i been hearing so far is things i already knew 20 years ago, but sometimes hearing them again will cause me to think and come up with new ideas which is valuable.
more than anything i need input simply to stimulate myself into thinking. all the answers are already inside my mind i just need to find them in there. whenever you think about anything on your own you will eventually get trapped in a certain pattern that ultimately leads to insanity. this is why solitary confinement leads to physical brain damage and is recognized as a form of torture.
i NEED your input to randomize my own thinking to shake myself out of getting stuck in irrational thought patterns. basically using you people as a stochastic noise generator for my thoughts, a dither function. you help keep my mind healthy so it can answer its own questions.
this is not to belittle anybody. i'm just sharing my super advanced methods with you. nobody else will teach you these things.
no no no !
no BSS !
$$$ ! ! !
i am only interested in processing already built into crown amps for free.
i like free !
i don't want to buy any processors other than MiniDSP because it's relatively affordable, well maybe DriveRack Venu 360 because it's still cheaper than BSS.
but Venu doesn't have a remote control, and it's a fair chunk of change ...
and because DSP keeps evolving you can't invest in it - it's all disposable ...
you can invest in cabinets and drivers, maybe amps, but not DSP ...
is Q-Sys limited to QSC ?
i don't want to use a computer, that's a hack. of course a computer can do anything, but at that point you may as well just hire a band to come to your home and play for you.
it's called cheating, or giving up.
a computer is not a clean or elegant solution.
sounds complicated ... seems like it would take me a while to figure this out ...
but it goes back to my point about how DSP is an evolving area and i will not limit my design to what is at my disposal today ( which is not much ). the physical / acoustical design of the system will assume unlimited DSP possibilities and eventually, if i live long enough, those features will become available to me ...
i'll just focus on the acoustical design and when the time comes to build you can pick for me whatever DSP solution is cheapest and i'll go with that for a start and then at some point down the road it will be upgraded as prices for better stuff come down ...
as for Crown vs QSC yes QSC has enviable reputation for reliability but i wonder if this is really relevant for home use ? when i originally got my PLX it was for distortion specs but in actual use i would probably not hear the slightly higher distortion of Crown while i definitely hear that fan.
even so Crown unfortunately has some cheap cr@p DSP in all their cheaper amps that can't be bypassed while QSC still sells fully analogue amps, which is why CX look attractive to me.
to me you should either put in excellent DSP into the amp or none at all. to me all the amps up to about $2,000 shouldn't have any DSP and the ones above $2,000 should have fully featured DSP. instead Crown puts DSP in all the amps but it just gets worse and worse as the amps get cheaper. i don't like that and that's why my plan is to use a higher-end Crown for my biggest amp and QSC for the smaller amps.
it's interesting because CX lists "Q-Sys" but it doesn't seem to have any DSP. so i guess it's just for monitoring. i wonder if such monitoring is useful for an application where the amp just drives a compression driver ...
yo what about those XM or something yamaha amps that have 4 channels ? what do you think of them as alternative to QSC CX for 4-channel amps to drive compression drivers ? i would have to go used for CX but maybe could swing a new Yamaha XM because they are far lower powered ... but it would only make sense if Yamaha has quieter fan, because a an Ebay CX is still half the price of Yamaha and is a very well reputed amp. basically Ebay CX with a Noctua fan swap or new unmodded Yamaha XM ?
QSC amps have THD specs like 0.01% everybody else has higher noise figures but i wonder if those are audible in real world considering most drivers have 1% or more THD even at lower levels and also we can't really hear distortion below 1% with real content ( as opposed to sinewave tones ) ... although we are more sensitive to distortion in compression driver range ... and also amps have more distortion in compression driver range as well ... rather unfortunate.
story time !
a while back i get into the car, Spotify starts playing automatically and it sounds HORRIBLE and i think to myself - what is wrong ?
well nothing was wrong - it's just that i wasn't wearing earplugs and windows were open. with music at a low level and ambient noise at high level all the detail in music was drowned out by the ambient noise and it sounded horrible.
close the windows, put earplugs in, turn volume up - voila ! sounds great !
without earplugs and with open windows music is at about 85 db and ambient noise at 70 db so you get about 15 db of signal to noise ratio
with earplugs and with closed windows music is at 100 db and ambient noise at 60 db so you get about 40 db of signal to noise ratio
HUGE DIFFERENCE
to your brain noise and distortion is more or less the same. it doesn't care if music is getting mudded up by IMD or by background noise - it is cr@p that doesn't belong is all your brain cares about.
remember decibel scale starts at 0 db because that's the audibility threshold ...
we think of things like 20db noctua fans as "silent" and they are in the sense that our background noise is maybe 40 db and these noctua fans completely disappear into it ...
but why we do we treat this background noise as destiny ? earplugs lower this level. if you can lower background noise by 15 db you have increased your signal to noise ratio by 15 db. even 3db of extra signal to noise ratio is worth fighting for - 15 db is life changing.
realize that what we consider as noise floor is actually what our ear-brain mechanism has evolved to process. all these modern sounds like car horns and loudspeakers and combustion engines - they never existed when your ear-brain was evolving. that 40 db noise floor that you consider effectively zero and the start of the scale - was actually THE material. you were supposed to analyze the sounds of the wind, moving grass, broken branches a mile away ...
these only seem like low level signals in comparison to modern loud noises that cause hearing damage ... they aren't actually that low ... if you wore earplugs for 20 years like me you would realize these background noises aren't as low as people think ...
digital music has about 90db signal to noise ratio. electronics like amps etc about 75 db signal to noise speakers maybe 50 db ... and background noise is maybe 50 db as well depending on the environment. in my room the loudest thing is the QSC fan tying with the refrigerators, both probably at around 50 decibels. if we add to this 50db the 50db of speaker dynamic range ( signal vs distortion components ) we need about 100db before all these things like QSC amplifier fan and refrigerators become non-factors ... but you're now in hearing damage territory. earplugs like Westone or Etymotic will drop you back down to a safe 85 db.
yes even good earplugs have a color to their sound - but so what ? speakers have a color to the sound. room has a color to the sound. you can both EQ it out and also your brain will get used to it as well.
i am having a GREAT experience listening in the car with musician's earplugs - never had such a good experience in the car without them. of course at home background noise is ~ 50 db not ~ 70 db ... but remember 50 db is still 100,000 times the threshold of audibility ! even 30 db which is an underground bunker level of quiet is 1000 times the threshold of audibility. i mean even with earplugs in i can still hear that QSC fan from another room ...
so you know what ? i think it's worth it. i never had a home system loud enough to really make good use of earplugs but they work for me under headphones in the gym and they work for me in the car and with a loud enough system at home they will probably work as well.
in fact they will likely make it sound BETTER because i will be able to get that bass in the chest feeling without boosting up the bass - instead all frequencies will be up by 15 db but my chest will be running 15 db hotter than my ears ! the opposite of what i have now - hurting my ears in headphones and feeling nothing in my chest or through the floor.
but best of all most of the system cost is in the subwoofers and their amps and that output is there to feel the bass with my body, not ears ... so earplugs will not affect that ... additionally compression midrange is already capable of much higher output and will not need to be upgraded either to compensate for the earplug use ... only the tweeters would need to be upgraded and this would only raise system cost maybe 5% for additional 15 decibel of signal to noise ratio.
no-brainer.
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I did not read all in detail, but the idea to use ear plugs in the house when the music is coming from speakers is strange.
If you are listening all the time all alone - use headphones.
The good thing about good speakers in a decent room is that you can share the listening experience with other people, or not?
If you are listening all the time all alone - use headphones.
The good thing about good speakers in a decent room is that you can share the listening experience with other people, or not?
you make a good point but other people are stup1d and will accept hearing damage.
i already had that situation in my car where i had a 5-way system with 107 db/watt Beyma bullet supertweeters and i had Etymotic Research Earplugs and everybody else had ear pain.
you have to understand all these people are going deaf anyway because they are not bright enough to wear earplugs.
i can't save them regardless. i am not their only exposure to loud noises. they NEVER protect themselves. i always do.
why should i stop protecting myself just because they are too dumb to do it ? you're literally asking me why do i want to be smart when other people are stup1d ? well because that's their own problem, not mine !
i never leave my room without hearing protection. my ROOM not my house ! people in the pool think i have earplugs because i'm afraid of water getting into my years - nope ! i'm afraid of the moron lifeguard whistling ... or a shower head that is excessively loud. when using power tools i wear ear muffs over earplugs as they do on aircraft carriers, for a total of 40 db of protection. anybody who doesn't is a fool.
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Quite. Very strange. Then again
. Clearly we are not at the right level yet.
Well, you are clearly the definitive authority on everything audio, and us mere mortals should praise ourselves lucky to be able to act as stochastic noise generators for your thoughts. I guess we will just stand back and witness true greatness at work. Please forgive us for questioning your ultimate wisdom.
If, on the other hand, you actually want to improve your skills and knowledge as a speaker designer, you will have to realize that there are others out there with more knowledge and experience then you. When they choose to take time out of their day to help you out, you should be grateful and actually respect them enough to consider their input properly. I hope your realize how disrespectful you are behaving.
If, on the other hand, you actually want to improve your skills and knowledge as a speaker designer, you will have to realize that there are others out there with more knowledge and experience then you. When they choose to take time out of their day to help you out, you should be grateful and actually respect them enough to consider their input properly. I hope your realize how disrespectful you are behaving.
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you really are very lucky.
i like my wisdom to be questioned.
precisely because i'm always right anyway.
so it's kind of a low-risk situation.
it's like when Khabib was wrestling that bear ... the bear thought he was the bear but he didn't know Khabib was Khabib ...
that bear was blessed, and so are you !
Well, i am surprised too where the OP is going...
Maybe in some years he will be one of the first voluntary unemployed that will test some kind of Zuckerberg's Metaverse implant so that there is no need of eyes and ears anyway... sorry for that but i couldn't resist to share my opinion even though it sound a little bit offensive.
Maybe in some years he will be one of the first voluntary unemployed that will test some kind of Zuckerberg's Metaverse implant so that there is no need of eyes and ears anyway... sorry for that but i couldn't resist to share my opinion even though it sound a little bit offensive.
Well, if you think there is free stuff and gear is disposable that is fine but it is not my experience.
I didn't quote your two other message about dsp computer and other things related but in my view you contradict yourself many times and it seems to me you never really studied the offer and pro and cons.
Don't take me wrong, if you find your Driverack good enough for the job that is perfectly fine but don't dismiss options because they hurt your attitude or how you see things atm ( atm because there is perpetual evolutions in digital field and if you don't follow you quickly turn into a dinosaur ( which can be a good thing or not).
I just got a question to ask about your Dbx: do you think this is analog gear or is there a dedicated computer in it ( associated with dedicated hardware components -adc/dac) ?
It's far less complicated that one would think. For the most part, it's quite intuitive.
You're not yet understanding what Q-Sys is https://www.qsc.com/resources/software-and-firmware/q-sys-designer-software/
It is dsp that constantly evolves/improves without the need for new hardware.
The hardware is a physical processor that runs Linux compiled designs made with q-sys on a PC. The hardware does nothing until a design is put into it. No obsolesce.
(I moved from mini-dsp to this several years ago. Used a bank of open-drc's.)
I don't like having to pay for dsp in every amp. Especially since networked audio via Dante, AES, Q-Lan (q-sys), etc lets the processing and control be in a central box. BTW, all network formats that i know of are available for use under q-sys.
Yes, mainly for monitoring. Interesting, but not needed so much for smaller drivers. Definitely worth having for subs though. Larger CX and PL3's have dataport monitoring too.
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Hi guy the previous writer is absolutely correct, your system is super complex and designing a crossover for that system and correcting it more or less for a flat frequency response, you need some serious technical know how and quite a bit of experience. There is a huge difference for car sound that theatre sound, if I take the volume of the listening space into consideration, it would probably require a few mini DSP's and some very good analysis or measurement equipment.
This is not for the faint at heart, even experienced people like the Danny Richie's of this world would need to really scratch his head for a long time and have some really fancy filtering stages pulling the sound altogether. I would not even attempt it.
It will take years of designing listening and tweaking to make it sound real. I listened to your playlist, I do not know what your problem is with distortion, the source (music) is pure distortion, so how would you even dream of comparing this to any real world sound. The voices are auto-tuned, the music is super synthesized and mastered by some guy in his garage with a laptop. So what is distortion to you?
Is it the noise generated by the driver bottoming out, the compression you hear when the voice coil moves out of the magnetic field, the cone break-up, the large wooden panels exited along in their own harmonic tune.
This thing you just build out of scrap material, in your listening area. Sorry I may be personal, do you really think that someone in his right "audiophile" mind listens to stuff that vibrates the door panels and not think it is absolutely distorted, also think what car audio is all about, it is having fun, impressing another car causing its panels to rattle. Irritating the sh!t out of your neighbours, waking every barking dog in the neighbourhood during the early hours of the morning.
Besides that, you are in the near field of every speaker driver, you are in fact sitting inside the speaker cabinet. It is a completely different environment, that of creating pressure waves that lifts the girl standing on the street-corner's skirt or make her wig blow off. To anyone outside, that is not even audio, it is just noise, a jackhammer may sound great in comparison.
If you want music enjoyment, keep your system as simple as possible, the cabinet as resonant free as you can have, efficiency rather than raw music power output.
Sought after a speaker chassis, that is made of cast aluminium, make sure that the voice coil will always be well inside the magnetic field, the load to the amplifiers seeming as resistive as practically possible and that you don't have impedance humps along the bandwidth caused either acoustically, electrically or mechanically characteristic of the system.
Think clearly what you want the cabinet to do and look like to at least aesthetically blend into your environment, it has little to do with frequencies higher than a few hundred hertz.
The only thing I can say is good luck, this will be a project for some better speaker designer on this forum. Public address systems are loud to reach a big audience as good as possible, not depth, with, space, imaging or whatever buzzwords are applicable.
Just trying to do phase correction between four tweeters is a thing in itself, speaker manufacturers moved away from the impressive looking Japanese audiophile speakers of the 70's and 80's with up to seven drivers and multiple tweeters and super tweeters and really returning to single tweeter designs for very good reason. That is my humble take on this project.
My first post in this thread.
I have been watching first with interest, then with humour and I'm afraid it's gone onto a cross between scorn and disdain.
axi, You have two ears and one mouth but have failed to realize the value of that ratio and because of that, you are driving the people who actually have the knowledge away from your thread.
axi, I have rooms full of drivers. Big ones, small ones, fat ones, skinny ones and would not ever entertain the likes of what you are attempting even after a boatload of rum. It has no basis in constructive design.
Time to start listening. The Mod team does not take kindly to wasting the members' valuable input like this.
I have been watching first with interest, then with humour and I'm afraid it's gone onto a cross between scorn and disdain.
axi, You have two ears and one mouth but have failed to realize the value of that ratio and because of that, you are driving the people who actually have the knowledge away from your thread.
axi, I have rooms full of drivers. Big ones, small ones, fat ones, skinny ones and would not ever entertain the likes of what you are attempting even after a boatload of rum. It has no basis in constructive design.
Time to start listening. The Mod team does not take kindly to wasting the members' valuable input like this.
