How important is the visual appeal of your proposed system compared with sound quality?
Sorry if I missed it, but what is the room size?
it's not about visual appeal it's about having an elegant design - i am not going to put any finish on it at all - it will just be bare plywood without even lacquer
there is no "room" ... the main "volume" is something like 20 feet wide by 25 feet deep by 15 feet high but it isn't "airtight" it flows into the rest of the house through a 8 by 8 foot opening on the first floor and something like 5 X 25 foot opening on the 2nd floor ... the ceiling is sloped so that it's 10 ft on one side and 20 foot on another side and just flows into the 2nd floor through that 5 x 25 foot opening, which is sort of like a balcony on the 2nd floor that spans the entire width of the "room" ...
i had JBL EON 1500 speakers in this space before driven by QSC PLX amp but i didn't have a subwoofer ... i did not notice any kind of acoustical problems ... i actually have a TC Sounds LMS subwoofer sitting right there - it was used as a stand for the TV but not connected - i could play some music through it i guess to judge how the bass will sound in the space but i'm really not worried because not a single surface in the house is actually rigid enough to reflect bass unlike the NYC apartment which was completely rigid everywhere and sounded like a tub ...
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Have you considered building your system in stages? A 2-way system using a 12" woofer and 1" or 1.4" CD with a decent sized horn is a proven and easy way of reaching serious SPL-levels with good fidelity and controlled dispersion. If you discover limitations at the volumes you actually listen to, then you can add "ways" to your hearts content to that system. A few good subs as a foundation is a important in any case,
I would suggest that in such a small room all your aims could be completely met by a much simpler and cheaper speaker design which would possess far fewer of the anomalies and problems that your proposed multiple driver design will incur. "Elegant design" to me means providing a solution to a problem without unnecessary complexity, which seems to be the rabbit hole down which you are currently trapped. If you are genuinely worried about hearing loss, then building a very high spl capability system will probably require more willpower than you might possess, given that you cannot limit your headphone use to a safe level. I am sure I am not alone when I say that I am slightly confused as to what your prime motivation is with this project, and some clarification from you would be both revealing and useful to the thread.
i'm running out - no time to answer ( or even read ) the replies right now but wanted to say i just came up with some ideas that would radically change this setup ... if i don't change my mind i'll detail them when i have time
the design already went through many iterations and in my mind i'm already moving on to the next one ...
it will basically involve splitting two of the frequency bands into 2 channels each for beam steering purposes to mitigate some of the issues we were talking about here ...
i haven't fully thought it through it just hit me about an hour ago ...
talk to you guys later ...
the design already went through many iterations and in my mind i'm already moving on to the next one ...
it will basically involve splitting two of the frequency bands into 2 channels each for beam steering purposes to mitigate some of the issues we were talking about here ...
i haven't fully thought it through it just hit me about an hour ago ...
talk to you guys later ...
Check out the JBL HLA system as an example of a large multi horn system:
https://www.cieri.net/Documenti/JBL/Technical Notes/JBL Technical Note - Vol.1, No.23.pdfhttps://jblpro.com/en/products/hla-4895-hla-4895a#descriptionits only 4 way including subs. A local venue uses a modified version of this to which they added 'kick' cabs making it a 5 way system but this is a 3000 capacity venue you wouldn't need the complexity in such a small space.
https://www.cieri.net/Documenti/JBL/Technical Notes/JBL Technical Note - Vol.1, No.23.pdfhttps://jblpro.com/en/products/hla-4895-hla-4895a#descriptionits only 4 way including subs. A local venue uses a modified version of this to which they added 'kick' cabs making it a 5 way system but this is a 3000 capacity venue you wouldn't need the complexity in such a small space.
Ok, but just briefly...it' your thread. Just giving a little proof i've been after the same thing.
Here's some speaker build, on top of dual 18" subs.
Then amp rack.
Then my "remote" which is a laptop that has chosen control elements from the processing schematic,
which is the last screen. Q-sys.
I keep volume controls on the remote for surfing Fletcher =Munson at different SPLs, for adjusting tonality on tracks when needed, and for adjusting indoor vs out. Along with stereo/mono switching etc.
I so super agree with all the folks saying to simple down your design...you'll get all the SPL you want and most importantly, better sound. 🙂
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that's a lot of amplifiers ...
i see you're running exclusively QSC and their Q-Sys whatever that is ... i have actually been wondering what Q-Sys is ...
i will say that i'm partial to Crown over QSC in fact i wanted to smash my QSC PLX with a hammer many times because of how loud the fan is ... i will mod the fan once the amp finds its place driving some easy load but i used to have this amp driving TC Sounds LMS subwoofer and couldn't mod the fan or the amp would have fried ...
so basically what i'm saying is i will definitely not be going your route of all-QSC on the other hand i don't see anything from Crown that would work as well for compression drivers as QSC CX line ...
my plan is to use QSC analog amps for all compression drivers and Crown Drivecore amps for all cone drivers ... but then apparently i won't be able to use that Q-Sys thing - what is it anyway ?
is there a Crown analogue to Q-Sys ? they must have something. but they have so many names for various things i can't keep track of them.
your system is on the right track but i definitely still prefer my own design.
If you prefere your own designs, why ask for advice?
For exmple, mark100 is one of the of the greatest minds around here with proven theory and practically skills. Why not listen and discuss?
For exmple, mark100 is one of the of the greatest minds around here with proven theory and practically skills. Why not listen and discuss?
I agree completely with Petter Persson but will also reiterate my earlier comment: "...simply build it as you see fit and I am certain that you will enjoy it...".
Expectation Bias is a very powerful thing and if you believe deep down that your design is best, and that the pitfalls and problems which many learned posts here have highlighted are unimportant, then I believe that you will be very happy with your system's performance and will have fulfilled your aims. It seems fairly clear now that you probably will not be swayed from your design, but before buying drivers and cutting wood, please do re-read this thread from start to finish and consider that comments made by me and others which have suggested that just 'more' is not necessarily better are based upon experience and physics, not personal whim or fashion. Original thinking is to be applauded in any field, however one has also to build on established and proven technology and not try to completely re-design the wheel...
Over and out, and the very best of luck in your acoustic endeavours. 🤘
The crown equivalent would be BSS processing which is under the Harmen brand. You can download q-sys and work on designs offline to see what it can do.
Hi,
The interesting point about Qsys is , imho, the fact it is modular architecture ( you are not locked into a definitive signal path with predifined location and order of treatments).
The other point of interest is it is an integrated system: everything is made to work together ( hardware) so you don't have issues about compatibility and unstable behavior.
The cons are the 'openess' of the system which can make it difficult to operate ( you loose what you gain somewhere... 🙂 ).
As Kipman pointed there is a vast offer of dsp ( loudspeaker management systems) availlable on the market. In the end it'll depend of what your needs really are: do you need modularity, which kind of filter or process you want to use, etc,etc,...
A computer with a multi out dac and software is another perfectly fine solution too. Especially if the instal is fixed. But it have it's own set of cons too.
The interesting point about Qsys is , imho, the fact it is modular architecture ( you are not locked into a definitive signal path with predifined location and order of treatments).
The other point of interest is it is an integrated system: everything is made to work together ( hardware) so you don't have issues about compatibility and unstable behavior.
The cons are the 'openess' of the system which can make it difficult to operate ( you loose what you gain somewhere... 🙂 ).
As Kipman pointed there is a vast offer of dsp ( loudspeaker management systems) availlable on the market. In the end it'll depend of what your needs really are: do you need modularity, which kind of filter or process you want to use, etc,etc,...
A computer with a multi out dac and software is another perfectly fine solution too. Especially if the instal is fixed. But it have it's own set of cons too.
"with DSP it's a different process - it's not about measuring and calculating and entering it right once - it's basically you start using it right away and then just keep tweaking it by ear ... forever"
Well you must start from somewhere... Too many here spend half a year to choose components and making sims for a small 2-way speaker!
Well you must start from somewhere... Too many here spend half a year to choose components and making sims for a small 2-way speaker!
First, @ Petter....thx for the kind words and vote of confidence.... only wish i could always live up to 'em Lol
Q-Sys is the control software for QSC Core processors. Open architecture, design your own DSP with a PC, which complies it on the Core running Linux.
Robust install type stuff.
Online training is excellent, and you can learn how it works/ try designs on a PC without owning a Core.
Well worth the effort to check out the training .as it opens eyes and minds to where (i believe) even the advanced home audio routing/processing market is headed.
Open architecture processing has been in the proaudio install market for quite a while. Check out the array of processor brands/models that Fulcrum Acoustic supports for their install speakers...https://www.fulcrum-acoustic.com/support/processor-configurations/
Once a person goes open-architecture, they'll never look back imho, unless they have a simple two-way passive type or similar situation.
As kipman said, BSS is the Q-Sys counterpart for Crown. Must admit, i'm not a Crown fan for what seems to be eroding reliability, and models being discontinued early in their lifespan. The I-Tech HD series does look nice however.
Powersoft would be my first choice in amps...but beyond my budget,
and when push comes to shove, i'll take q-sys and networked amplification, over any traditional amp specs selection.
Oh, +1 on the damn noisy fans...it's my only real bitch with QSC products.
quick update - i had been struggling with the question of whether to use musician's earplugs at home while listening to this system and decided that the answer is yes - i WILL be using earplugs.
i will have to update my models to add the attenuation of Westone earplugs to my curves ... it is very similar to attenuation from Etymotic earplugs even though they use a different technology. but they basically both reduce mids and highs while letting bass through.
i been using Etymotic for probably like 20 years but recently switched to Westone because they are smaller and sexier and sound just as good, maybe better.
i will have to update my models to add the attenuation of Westone earplugs to my curves ... it is very similar to attenuation from Etymotic earplugs even though they use a different technology. but they basically both reduce mids and highs while letting bass through.
i been using Etymotic for probably like 20 years but recently switched to Westone because they are smaller and sexier and sound just as good, maybe better.
Using earplugs while listening to music is not something I would do - unless I wanted to feel (not hear) like being on a rock concert (where I normally wear them) - and I think that could be achieved also by other means. Not mentioning that high SPL in small spaces cause other sort of problems as well.
well i already have a 15" 2-way ( albeit a very cheap one ) in the form of JBL EON 1500. it's plenty loud enough but it's response is something like 100 hz to 12 khz or so with a huge hump around 3 khz and very thin bass.
all the conventional wisdom like what i'm getting on this forum indicated that the biggest issue with that JBL EON 1500 should have been the crossover as it's literally just an inductor and capacitor and they are running a 15" woofer to 2.7 khz with center to center spacing of around a foot ...
but you know what ? that crossover doesn't bother me at all. everything i know about phase and time alignment tells me it should be some kind of horrific mess but it just isn't. or rather it might be but it simply doesn't make any difference to the final result. in fact that crossover region is the only frequency range this speaker gets right - it is a mess everywhere ELSE.
maybe you guys are too busy following each other's advice to try and please others instead of pleasing yourselves. if my JBL EONs sounded everywhere like they sound in their crossover region ( loud and clear ) they would be some of the best speakers i ever heard. unfortunately as i said the bass is nonexistent and the treble is very rolled off as well.
i realize this JBL EON 1500 is a $400 2-way speaker and for about $1,000 or so i could build a much better one ... but why ? just because the internet has some kind of crossover phobia ?
it really seems to be a phobia. the idea that crossovers somehow ruin speakers. that drivers are pure and crossovers adulterate them.
NEWSFLASH ! drivers aren't "pure" ... if anything it's the crossovers that are pure and drivers adulterate them.
to me a 3-way plus sub isn't "elegant" it's conformist and boring.
as for what i'm trying to achieve i am also a little confused about it myself but while debating in another thread i realized i want a system that i can listen to while using musicians earplugs so i don't have to concern myself with any noises in the environment as it's an open space floor plan and not some kind of underground sound insulated bunker. there are two refrigerators barely further away than the speakers and windows everywhere that let in sound from the outside even when closed.