Maybe I expressed myself wrong about the adjustments. What I tried to say is if the PSX doesn't work properly, it can be difficult to get it to work 100 pct. It seems to be very sensitive. The problem to begin with is probably some kid that has been rough on it.
Well, I have only those two CDs with copy protection, "Copy Control technology." They work perfect. So does my single CD-R.
As for the "Head Hunters" CD, I tested it on my DVD player yesterday. It too stutters on one track. It works perfect on some CD players, though. And, of course, ROM drives and burners play anything that's ever so slightly circular.
The PSX, if fine, it should work as any other CD player.
Well, I have only those two CDs with copy protection, "Copy Control technology." They work perfect. So does my single CD-R.
As for the "Head Hunters" CD, I tested it on my DVD player yesterday. It too stutters on one track. It works perfect on some CD players, though. And, of course, ROM drives and burners play anything that's ever so slightly circular.
The PSX, if fine, it should work as any other CD player.
Ok, in worst case scenario I still have something to put the iron to and play with but just as you, I have 2 PSXs. One -1002 which I bought to modify and one "new". I bought it new myself some years ago and I've done everything according to the book and it doesn't play the records either.😕
And it plays the records, the only thing is that it can't boot up with them in. Once it is in CD-mode there are no problems.
And it plays the records, the only thing is that it can't boot up with them in. Once it is in CD-mode there are no problems.
I had the same problem with my first PSX. I really have no tech info and things like that are the only ones I post about here. Some earlier posters reported the same problem. I guess that's the reason the DynaStation comes with the PSone, even though it's said to suck.
jives11 said:
I just changed the .47uF GoldWell caps to some 1uF WIMA's I found at the local electronics place for $0.35 each (I think these are like $3 retail). What a difference. Unless placebo, bass did change dramatically to a cleaner resolution. Could have been the type of cap -- the Goldwell was a standard round type.
I searched for high pass filter and phase delay for about an hour on this site and google, and could not come across anything. 🙁
I may experiment, I also found some 3.3uF Sprague which were known in Fender guitar amps. I picked up some more of the WIMA's also, may add another 1uf or two in series to see if it makes a difference.
I am going to mod my Toshiba 3980 tonight and will A/B tommorow.
I have tested my JBL L26s and they have a decent response down to 30HZ so I need to make sure I am good! 🙂
DragonMaster said:
I guess you are asking me.
I am listening now with a Red 1uF 50V WIMA that I found.
Not sure what "Orange Drop" is! 🙂
Or anyone else. I think I'll go with the WIMAs.
"Orange Drop" are Vishay's orange polypropylene/polystyrene capacitors. I think that they are better for tube use tho.
DragonMaster said:
Thanks. I would like to try Black Gates due to their huge reputation on the Internet, but so far I am happy with these WIMAs. If I run across a set I will probably try them.
Interesting about the Vishays. I am building this playstation as my CD player for my Jolida 302B, maybe I will have to see if I can find these? Only takes a a few minutes to swap caps on this player.
ttrentt said:
I think this site describes the phenomena and has a useful tool to model it.
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~jcgl/Scots_Guide/experiment/highpass/hpf.html
I also figure that if the CD player makers (i.e Marantz) could use a tiny value of C (i.e SMT) they probably would as it's cheaper. Yet they all seem to use something around 100uF either standard lytic (cheap models) or a Bipolar (Blackgate or Muse in more expensive models). My old Marantz CD65 had two polarised 220uF caps back-to-back, with the nagatives together. This gives 110uF bipolar. I think the 4.7uF wimas are probably the largest value plastic film cap thats going to fit inside the box. I have a couple of 50uF Solen Polyprop caps in my Radford HT supply. They sound great but they are the size of those small drink cans you get on aeroplane flights
ttrentt said:
my 1002 is on loan to an old friend who has been my audiophile mentor for the last 25+ years. He has a much more expensive system than mine, currntly with PMC Transmission line speakers and boulder amps with squeezebox2 (flac) & Heart(CD) front ends. He said he could live with the PS quite happily but for some softness in the bass. His system is very strong in bass extension dept, so this would show up. I was pretty pleased but I think perhaps a buffer of some sort (tube?) would help sort this out.
I posted something similar here a year ago. My DVD player has tighter bass than the PSX. Granted, the DVD player is not bad. I have later learned that it's better than many equal-priced CD players. Having that said, I think most reasonably good CD players are better than the PSX for techno or if used in a club. They have more slam.
"In a quick AB test, the poorer loudspeaker always wins; the speaker with the brightest highs makes the other sound dull, just as the flashy prostitute makes the naturally beautiful seem plain. Imagine Grace Kelly on one street corner and Courtney Love on another, who would turn more heads in five minutes? Who would turn more stomachs in a week? In the short term, meretricious usually wins over meritorious," John Broskie writes at Tube CAD Journal.
I would say the same goes for the PSX. The PSX wins in the long haul. It makes extended listening pleasing. To me, the 20-bit remastered Herbie Hancock "Head Hunters" CD is the CD that best demonstrates the qualities of the PSX. The keyboard on it is so shriekingly hard it almost makes my ears bleed. But played on the PSX it suddenly becomes music. The PSX is the only reason this vinyl junkie listens to CDs.
As for my PSX. I have done no tweaks on the output. Maybe those things will improve on it. But I have simply seen no reason for it. You know those plastic direct-drive decks that came with cheap stereo systems back in the 1980s. If you have one of those and somebody hands you an SME Model 30, your first thought isn't, "How can I make the Model 30 sound better?" To me the PSX is that Model 30. Maybe I'll tweak it should I get a second PSX. But for now I'm content having the only CD player I have ever heard that doesn't suck.
Sorry for the rant.
jives11 said:
One of the things not mentioned here or on Mick's site is that the low-frequency cutoff frequency is not set by the capacitor and resistor in the player (source component) alone. The source component resistor is in parallel with the input resistance of the next component downstream. The formula for paralleling two resistors is (R1 * R2) / (R1 + R2).
If you play with numbers and this formula, you'll see several things... one is that the paralleled value will always be lower than the smaller of the two resistors. Another is that when you have two resistors in parallel that are the same value, your paralleled value is 1/2 their un-paralleled value. And another is that when you have two resistors paralleled that are different values, but pretty widely different than each other (like 100 ohms and 5 ohms) the value very near that of the smaller of the two resistors.
Many (but not all) active preamps have a pretty high resistance at the input, so the resistance on the output of the PS-1 will likely be the smaller and the dominant value... and then the formula others have mentioned will work ok.
If you use a passive volume control like I do, then the output resistance of the player is in parallel with both the resistance to ground of the volume control and that of the next stage (typically your amplifier). Then it becomes a bit more complex, but the bottom line is that having a large resistance at the output of the player is better... I'd generally go with something like 100kohms. This will help ensure that the bass cutoff is low enough to prevent group delay problems in the bass and lower midrange (as cited above from a CDP modification article).
Also, as Jives11 noted, you generally see values of 2uf - 100uf used as DC blocking/coupling caps at the output of most consumer gear... this range of cap values give an acceptable low frequency cutoff given the range of resistor values used at the input of most downstream gear.
Then there's bass quality...
jives11 said:
phn said:
In my experience, bass quality is affected by a number of things... here are some of the more important ones:
- Quality of power supply... bigger is better, but output caps need to be good-quality to prevent them from muddying the bass (and mid-frequencies and treble!).
- Bass cutoff frequency... lower is better (bigger caps and bigger resistors at the output).
- DC Blocking caps quality... Better quality caps (polystyrene or polypropelene instead of mylar or electrolytic - except Black Gates) make for better quality bass... but it's harder to find larger good caps and they are physically MUCH larger and hard to fit in, as Jives11 noted.
- Local power supply reservoirs... bigger and better quality help here. Jives11, that's why I think your interest in replacing the PS reservoir caps around the DAC with OSCONs is a healthy one.
- Physical vibration management... minimizing the affect of vibrations on the structure through isolation or coupling (I tend to go for soft absorbers, but others use different means) and by vibration-damping the structure help a lot.
The quality of the electronics in the player and the digital filter also have an effect, but that's beyond where most of us are willing to go in messing with these PS-1's.
Greg in Minneapolis
Greg Stewart said:
Interesting stuff Greg, I'm feeding my modified PS1 into a T-amp with a 100K pot as per the 'stealth' mod by Audio 1st.
Stealth
The thing is......I dont theoretically need to put blocking caps in the PS1 so when I directly wire off the DAC what do I do with the resistors? Trying to get my head round this grounding thing gives me a headache!!!!
Lee
Actually you do...
need the output DC blocking/coupling caps even when you have them at the input of your amp WHEN you have a volume control ahead of the caps. The DC on the output of the PS-1 flows through the control... degrades the contacts over time (faster than they would just by age and corrosion)... and creates jumps in DC when you turn the control that occur as big low-frequency pulses once they pass through the downstream DC blocking/coupling caps... not nice to your woofers.
One thing that should be OK would be to put the Auricaps at the input of the amp between the input jacks and the volume control. If you do this, you'd def want a 100K pot to keep the LF cutoff low.
*EDIT*
I just looked down further in the Stealth Amp thread that you referenced in your post and based on the rest of the input filter, I would NOT move the Auricaps as I said above... having the volume-control pot working directly into the rest of the input filter would be unwise IMHO. Someone with more electrical knowledge than I may say it's ok... I am an uneducated, but experience tweaker, not an EE. But don't do it based on my recommendation!
<SNIPPED IN EDIT>
*EDIT*
Greg in Minneapolis
need the output DC blocking/coupling caps even when you have them at the input of your amp WHEN you have a volume control ahead of the caps. The DC on the output of the PS-1 flows through the control... degrades the contacts over time (faster than they would just by age and corrosion)... and creates jumps in DC when you turn the control that occur as big low-frequency pulses once they pass through the downstream DC blocking/coupling caps... not nice to your woofers.
One thing that should be OK would be to put the Auricaps at the input of the amp between the input jacks and the volume control. If you do this, you'd def want a 100K pot to keep the LF cutoff low.
*EDIT*
I just looked down further in the Stealth Amp thread that you referenced in your post and based on the rest of the input filter, I would NOT move the Auricaps as I said above... having the volume-control pot working directly into the rest of the input filter would be unwise IMHO. Someone with more electrical knowledge than I may say it's ok... I am an uneducated, but experience tweaker, not an EE. But don't do it based on my recommendation!
<SNIPPED IN EDIT>
*EDIT*
Greg in Minneapolis
Re: Actually you do...
I've got to say you seem to know your stuff to say that you are an uneducaded 'tweaker'!!
Also, I always wondered how the ground thing worked when you link two systems together that use a different power source so.....sod it, I think I'll put the output filter on the PS1 and live with it! It may degrade the signal but hell...what can I tell as a novice!
I'm using Obliggato's on the T but wondered what I should use in the PS1? I do have some of those claritycap DTAC's (3.0uf & 2.0uf)to hand but what values to use...to that end, what resistors to use? The figures say that my MLTL's can't get below 60hz anyway so 2.0uf should be more than enough with, say, a 50K resistor
Maybe I shouldn't be using a pot.....
Greg Stewart said:
I've got to say you seem to know your stuff to say that you are an uneducaded 'tweaker'!!
Also, I always wondered how the ground thing worked when you link two systems together that use a different power source so.....sod it, I think I'll put the output filter on the PS1 and live with it! It may degrade the signal but hell...what can I tell as a novice!
I'm using Obliggato's on the T but wondered what I should use in the PS1? I do have some of those claritycap DTAC's (3.0uf & 2.0uf)to hand but what values to use...to that end, what resistors to use? The figures say that my MLTL's can't get below 60hz anyway so 2.0uf should be more than enough with, say, a 50K resistor
Maybe I shouldn't be using a pot.....
Re: Re: Actually you do...
I'd go with the 3uf Clarity with a 50K to 100K resistor... even if your speakers don't go that low, the phase shift of the LF cutoff will affect frequencies far above the cutoff. Also 3uf/100K will help you stagger your bass cutoff points... having multiple stages cutting off at the same frequency isn't good sonically either.
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'd hope I learned a few things after having modified / rebuilt / kitbuilt / scratchbuilt over 30 pieces of gear over 30 years. This has been one of the really fun ones... I'm always a bit cautious taking my soldering iron to a piece of gear that cost me $400 - $1000 or more... I have little fear with $25 PS's.
Greg in Minneapolis
Lostcause said:
I'd go with the 3uf Clarity with a 50K to 100K resistor... even if your speakers don't go that low, the phase shift of the LF cutoff will affect frequencies far above the cutoff. Also 3uf/100K will help you stagger your bass cutoff points... having multiple stages cutting off at the same frequency isn't good sonically either.
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'd hope I learned a few things after having modified / rebuilt / kitbuilt / scratchbuilt over 30 pieces of gear over 30 years. This has been one of the really fun ones... I'm always a bit cautious taking my soldering iron to a piece of gear that cost me $400 - $1000 or more... I have little fear with $25 PS's.
Greg in Minneapolis
Re: Re: Re: Actually you do...
The 3uf with 100K it is then, thanks a lot for the education and advice Greg, appreciate it.
I'm on holiday next week so I'm looking forward to some quality modding!.....and like you say, if I make a mistake I'll just get another!
Cheers
Lee
Greg Stewart said:
The 3uf with 100K it is then, thanks a lot for the education and advice Greg, appreciate it.
I'm on holiday next week so I'm looking forward to some quality modding!.....and like you say, if I make a mistake I'll just get another!
Cheers
Lee
Fixed my Primo unit today!
After my fiasco with lifted traces last week (see a previous post), I scrounged together the bits I needed to connect directly to the DAC outputs.
I used a teflon-insulated OFHC wire I'd used before for rewiring tonearms... about a 22 gauge (no, I only used it for the part inside the armtube... then I'd transition to a flexible cable!). To strain-relief it, I removed the top closed switch on the board, put a short piece of heatshrink around the wires where they'd pass that area, then laced a piece of buss wire through the switch mounting holes and over the heatshrink-protected wire and soldered it down... also incidently acting like the switch was indicating that the top was down.
After stripping off a tiny bit of insulation on the ends of the wire going to the DAC, I pulled them back and forth through the heatshrink until I had them perfectly positioned. I then soldered them down and used my trusty meter to ensure I had soldered them each to only one pin on the DAC. Then to finally secure them, I put a drop of CA glue on the heatshrinked portion of the wire and a dollop of hot-melt glue over the wires where the old coupling caps used to be.
I'm still running with the top off and was planning to use BIG caps, so I made up a mount from a piece of a plastic box... roughly a 2" x 3" rectangle with a flange coming up on the back end... I wanted to use different RCA jacks too.
After drilling the holes for the RCA's and cleaning them up (I used an old set of Mogami OFHC gold over brass I had around), I mounted the caps on the mounting plate with double-stick tape (an old pair of white/green Wonder Caps I scrounged from an old phono preamp... 4uf with .01uf bypasses) and soldered them and the termination resistor... 100k in this case... to the RCAs.
I transferred the mainboard into my cludgely-damped case bottom and shields and wired in the caps (adding a pair of leads from The RCA jacks to ground near where the original RCA's are mounted). The whole thing is mounted on the metal shield in the right rear corner above where the parallel connector is.
I was very happy that everything worked right away. As I write this, it's only had 1/2 hour to warmup... and with that, it is more detailed in the treble while also being more natural-sounding and better balanced... the stock caps seemed to accentuate the treble a bit and add a bit of harshness.
I do notice a tiny bit of bass loss... I'll have to try larger caps closer to the original 10uf. And of course these caps are nothing special... I'll have to try some more modern boutique-ish caps... I'm sure I can find ones that are more transparent... but they are a definite upgrade from the original electrolytics.
Greg in Minneapolis
P.S. I mentioned a few weeks ago that I wanted to try the two power supply types I have and see if I heard any differences. Interestingly, the 1-473-381-13 / SR670 PSU worked best with it's original 1-658-467-22 PU-8 mainboard and the 1-473-380-12 / EAMX5 PSU with it's original 1-658-467-23 mainboard.
After my fiasco with lifted traces last week (see a previous post), I scrounged together the bits I needed to connect directly to the DAC outputs.
I used a teflon-insulated OFHC wire I'd used before for rewiring tonearms... about a 22 gauge (no, I only used it for the part inside the armtube... then I'd transition to a flexible cable!). To strain-relief it, I removed the top closed switch on the board, put a short piece of heatshrink around the wires where they'd pass that area, then laced a piece of buss wire through the switch mounting holes and over the heatshrink-protected wire and soldered it down... also incidently acting like the switch was indicating that the top was down.
After stripping off a tiny bit of insulation on the ends of the wire going to the DAC, I pulled them back and forth through the heatshrink until I had them perfectly positioned. I then soldered them down and used my trusty meter to ensure I had soldered them each to only one pin on the DAC. Then to finally secure them, I put a drop of CA glue on the heatshrinked portion of the wire and a dollop of hot-melt glue over the wires where the old coupling caps used to be.
I'm still running with the top off and was planning to use BIG caps, so I made up a mount from a piece of a plastic box... roughly a 2" x 3" rectangle with a flange coming up on the back end... I wanted to use different RCA jacks too.
After drilling the holes for the RCA's and cleaning them up (I used an old set of Mogami OFHC gold over brass I had around), I mounted the caps on the mounting plate with double-stick tape (an old pair of white/green Wonder Caps I scrounged from an old phono preamp... 4uf with .01uf bypasses) and soldered them and the termination resistor... 100k in this case... to the RCAs.
I transferred the mainboard into my cludgely-damped case bottom and shields and wired in the caps (adding a pair of leads from The RCA jacks to ground near where the original RCA's are mounted). The whole thing is mounted on the metal shield in the right rear corner above where the parallel connector is.
I was very happy that everything worked right away. As I write this, it's only had 1/2 hour to warmup... and with that, it is more detailed in the treble while also being more natural-sounding and better balanced... the stock caps seemed to accentuate the treble a bit and add a bit of harshness.
I do notice a tiny bit of bass loss... I'll have to try larger caps closer to the original 10uf. And of course these caps are nothing special... I'll have to try some more modern boutique-ish caps... I'm sure I can find ones that are more transparent... but they are a definite upgrade from the original electrolytics.
Greg in Minneapolis
P.S. I mentioned a few weeks ago that I wanted to try the two power supply types I have and see if I heard any differences. Interestingly, the 1-473-381-13 / SR670 PSU worked best with it's original 1-658-467-22 PU-8 mainboard and the 1-473-380-12 / EAMX5 PSU with it's original 1-658-467-23 mainboard.
Greg, I agree with everything, with the possible exception of the effort thing. I will replace the electrolytics in the PSU, mostly because I don't expect to ever get around to make a PSU, even with schematic (more or less) at hand. All but one are low-voltage and thus are cheap. Any idea about what to replace the 2.2 uF electrolytics with? Tantalum? Film? Or simply better electrolytics? And once I get another console, I'll experiment with the output, adding some nice caps.
As for the somewhat lacking bass, I don't worry too much. It's a low price to pay for the other qualities. If the SET crowd can do it, I can. Actually, I kind of like the roll-off. Don't hold me to that last one. I will know AFTER I have tried some serious caps for the output.
As for the somewhat lacking bass, I don't worry too much. It's a low price to pay for the other qualities. If the SET crowd can do it, I can. Actually, I kind of like the roll-off. Don't hold me to that last one. I will know AFTER I have tried some serious caps for the output.
I tweak EVERYTHING!
PHN,
If I had the world's best CDP, I'd tweak it... it's a part of what I do with this hobby. So it's not an effort to me... just what I do.
Which 2.2uf's are you referring to? If they are the small caps in the PS, I plan to leave them alone myself... the electrolytics are cheap and easy to replace, them and the diodes are all I'm going to mess with in the SMPS...
... Except for one thing and I just did it and it's well worth it... I replaced the .1 X2 cap at the AC input to the SMPS with a boutique-ish cap, a .68uf 425V InfiniCap. Details became better deliniated and glory of glory, some of the bass came back!
This is similar to the 'Auricap' mod that was big on the Audio Asylum for CDP's last year.
I still want to go with a larger coupling cap, but this'll do for now. BTW, I was only referring to losing a bit of bass with the coupling caps I put in versus the stock 10uf couplers.
We'll see how it sounds later this evening after it's had a chance to warm up some and the power-line gremlins calm down some.
Gotta go turn off the soldering iron, eat, and get something else done!
Greg in Minneapolis
PHN,
If I had the world's best CDP, I'd tweak it... it's a part of what I do with this hobby. So it's not an effort to me... just what I do.
Which 2.2uf's are you referring to? If they are the small caps in the PS, I plan to leave them alone myself... the electrolytics are cheap and easy to replace, them and the diodes are all I'm going to mess with in the SMPS...
... Except for one thing and I just did it and it's well worth it... I replaced the .1 X2 cap at the AC input to the SMPS with a boutique-ish cap, a .68uf 425V InfiniCap. Details became better deliniated and glory of glory, some of the bass came back!
This is similar to the 'Auricap' mod that was big on the Audio Asylum for CDP's last year.
I still want to go with a larger coupling cap, but this'll do for now. BTW, I was only referring to losing a bit of bass with the coupling caps I put in versus the stock 10uf couplers.
We'll see how it sounds later this evening after it's had a chance to warm up some and the power-line gremlins calm down some.
Gotta go turn off the soldering iron, eat, and get something else done!
Greg in Minneapolis