I got good impedance and frequency response graphs after about the same time fiddleing with loudspeaker workshop and jMLS yeah I had problems with measured phase response and that took a bit longer to figure out.
I could try using a different pair of loudspeakers and see what that turns up.
I could try using a different pair of loudspeakers and see what that turns up.
Interesting suggestions Scott.
Your mention of a full digital XO stirred up quite a bit of interest in me. After looking at the ACXO software, it does indeed perform as advertised but has many limitations that I couldn't live with. For me the largest of these is the fact that you need to use ACXO player to actually have the crossover active, play music through something like winamp or foobar and you only get the music comming through the tweeter and full range at that!
Which leads me onto the fact that I have a vested interest in home thheater, the ACXO is clearly useless with programs like Theatertek and its internal decoding. My RME HDSP 9632 soundcard also only has 6 channels output so jf I use a 3-way XO then I'm left with no output to assign to the sub, center and surrounds fior a dual purpose setup. I could swap the cables around depending upon whether I wanted to listen to music or movies but I'd get fed up of that after around the 2nd time of doing that particular chore.
Still even though I've dismissed the ACXO and other PC based XO's, I still felt that I could reap some lovely features and flexibility with something like the DEQX package. The Rane and Behringer also seem to be popular choices, although limited compared to the expensive DEQX.
Any users of any of these like to comment on their feelings regarding the performance of these machines? Particularly interested in the DEQX as it seems to offer room correction and phase/time alignment in an auto setup package.
Your mention of a full digital XO stirred up quite a bit of interest in me. After looking at the ACXO software, it does indeed perform as advertised but has many limitations that I couldn't live with. For me the largest of these is the fact that you need to use ACXO player to actually have the crossover active, play music through something like winamp or foobar and you only get the music comming through the tweeter and full range at that!
Which leads me onto the fact that I have a vested interest in home thheater, the ACXO is clearly useless with programs like Theatertek and its internal decoding. My RME HDSP 9632 soundcard also only has 6 channels output so jf I use a 3-way XO then I'm left with no output to assign to the sub, center and surrounds fior a dual purpose setup. I could swap the cables around depending upon whether I wanted to listen to music or movies but I'd get fed up of that after around the 2nd time of doing that particular chore.
Still even though I've dismissed the ACXO and other PC based XO's, I still felt that I could reap some lovely features and flexibility with something like the DEQX package. The Rane and Behringer also seem to be popular choices, although limited compared to the expensive DEQX.
Any users of any of these like to comment on their feelings regarding the performance of these machines? Particularly interested in the DEQX as it seems to offer room correction and phase/time alignment in an auto setup package.
I'll mention this again just to be thorough. You could use the kxproject with an SB Audigy or Audigy2 card and keep your RME card as your PC output device. The kxproject would allow you to use the line-in of the Audigy card as your stereo input (looped from the Front L/R output of your RME) and it's 6 channel output as your 3-way active crossover output. Since all of the processing is done on the Audigy's DSP there is absolutely no load on your computer and therefore it can't be interrupted by anything other processes, the Audigy card effectively becomes a stand-alone digital EQ/active crossover. There are also a ton of very useful plugins for it such as time delays, Parametric equalizers, many different sloped crossovers, etc. All this and a decent Audigy2 card costs about $70. It's a bargain compared to a stand-alone digital EQ/crossover and generally speaking is higher quality and provides more features. The one drawback is that it is limited to 48KHz.
The big thing the DEQX has going for it is the crossovers use linear-phase FIR filters. That lets you use steep crossovers with no phase/group-delay penalties. As far as its "automatic" features, you still need to know what you're doing to set the thing up right so I don't see that as a big deal.
I don't think the ACXO would work with a surrond set-up. (note: the RME does have the ability to output up to 16 channels though (with expansion boards)).
DEQX review:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/deqx/deqx.html
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/overkill/encore.html
Obviously less costly digital crossovers like the Behringer do not have support for room correction (which IMO is more important than active crossovers.. to-a-point). They will also need modification in the analog output stage to achieve better sound (because they usually don't have digital-outs for each crossover "leg"). That said though, you can achieve a more than reasonable degree of room correction, (freq. response in the bass range at least), with a crossover like the behringer (which has a rather sophisticated eq when using the PC software.).
I *think* that (like the behringer room correction solution), you could use a PC for home theater and sound that has good eq. functions for room freq. corrections. (but I haven't looked into this..)
Again though, I think that by far the largest gain to be had would be from the the amorphous core transformer coupled SET amps.
DEQX review:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/deqx/deqx.html
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/overkill/encore.html
Obviously less costly digital crossovers like the Behringer do not have support for room correction (which IMO is more important than active crossovers.. to-a-point). They will also need modification in the analog output stage to achieve better sound (because they usually don't have digital-outs for each crossover "leg"). That said though, you can achieve a more than reasonable degree of room correction, (freq. response in the bass range at least), with a crossover like the behringer (which has a rather sophisticated eq when using the PC software.).
I *think* that (like the behringer room correction solution), you could use a PC for home theater and sound that has good eq. functions for room freq. corrections. (but I haven't looked into this..)
Again though, I think that by far the largest gain to be had would be from the the amorphous core transformer coupled SET amps.
m0tion said:
I could be wrong, but (if taken from a digital source) wouldn't that be digital to analog, analog to digital, digital to analog. If so that might be disadvantageous.
Yes, it would, but thats no different than it would be if you used a stand-alone digital x-over. I haven't ever been able to hear a problem with it, but YMMV.
ScottG said:
The HDSP 9632 will only do upto 6 channel out using the higher quality DACS. Alone the 9632 offers 2 outputs and with the AOS-192 expansion board you get another 4. You can't daisy chain these expansion boards unfortunately. If this is wrong I'd certainly appreciate hearing about a possible way to expand to more channels.
The DEQX seems like a lot of money in comparison to something like the DCX from Behringer. I know we have room correction and the auto setup also not forgetting the phase perfect filter but it seems to me that providing you don't need an internal pre-amp inside the XO box then the Behringer is a decent machine. I've actually had a quick play with the DCX a few times and was impressed with the features but found the interface aweful, I'd certainly use the remote PC software to control the box,
One sat nearly finished, just a light sand, then t-cut and a wax should see it finished.
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An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
ShinOBIWAN said:
The 9632 web page says:
" * Balanced* stereo analog in- and output, 192 kHz/24 bit, > 110 dB SNR
* Optional analog expansion boards with 4 balanced in- or outputs
* All analog I/Os capable of 192 kHz, constant number of available channels
* 1 ADAT digital I/O, supporting 96 kHz S/MUX operation
* 1 SPDIF digital I/O, 192 kHz-capable
* 1 Breakout cable for coaxial SPDIF*
* Up to 16 I/Os can be used simultaneously!
* 1 Stereo headphone output, parallel to the analog out, additional level settings
* 1 MIDI I/O with 16 channels of hi-speed MIDI via breakout cable
* TotalMix: 512-channel mixer with 40 bit internal resolution"
I'm assuming then that "16 I/O's" means 16 inputs or outputs..(could be wrong though)
Also there is:
"* HDSP Meter Bridge: Scalable level meter with Peak- and RMS calculation in hardware
* DIGICheck 4.1 for Windows: Spectral Analyser, professional level meter for 2, 8, or 16 channels, Vector Audio Scope, various other audio analysis tools.
* Drivers: Windows 2000/XP (full ASIO multi-client operation of MME, GSIF 2.0 and ASIO 2.0), Mac OS X (Core Audio, Core MIDI)."
Here it states that DIGICheck has a level meter for up to 16 channels.
Now it could be that beyond 6 output channels requires ADAT (as opposed to ASIO) - don't know though. Also it looks like your your second board would have to be the ABE4-0 (..or perhaps both boards would have to be the ABE4-0). In any event if it isn't ASIO then it won't work for the ACXO. (damn - there are W A Y to many acronyms here..)
Yeah, I do think the DEQX is (pricey), especially considering that the dac's are not that high in quality. But what makes it seem insane is of course the "price" of the ACXO.
As to the Behringer - I think it is essentially a good device except for the analog out for each channel (..presumably the dac's themselves are decent), AND that it doesn't have enough processing power for multiple channels WITH steep filters WITH additional eq.. If you are into modding (and have the expertise), then I'd say go for it. Heck, if the dacs output enough voltage (and you are connecting to an amp with substantial gain) then you could probably get-away with simply cutting the traces from the dac's and connecting a high quality output transformer (..lundahl also has some nice line-out amorphous core transformers).
EDIT:
Nice paint work! Looks GREAT!
Finish+crossover
How did you seal the MDF, did you just use a ton of primer? Are you using a spray gun, or just spraycans? Are you using a topcoat? What are you buffing it out at? 600grit, 0000 steel wool, 4F pumice?
I have actually done some test pieces with Rustoleum Metallic blue (spraycan) on birch plywood. Although I got a nice metallic sheen, it required a significant amount of primer/paint.
Very nice paint job, nice expensive drivers, you will have a great speaker, I am very jealous.
On the Crossover side:
Foobar actually has a FIR crossover plugin called divider, you should try it for prototyping before you sink real cash for a FIR crossover.
As for Pro speaker management crossovers: Most use IIR filters, just because it can do convolver does not mean all modules are programmed in FIR. Another option to DEQX is Lake Contour (FIR crossover). It is also very expensive. My understanding is both Behringer and Rane use IIR filters for their crossover section, call the companies to double check.
If understand you correctly, you already have RME, you should have aux sends, which you can use a VST or DirectX Plugin like Waves for your crossover. If you don’t have aux sends with your driver, I know emu-1820m does, and you can load it up with any filter you like. It is also significantly cheaper. MOTU is another more expensive option.
Also, FIR filters might give you some pre-echo, you should consult a digital filters text for more info.
How did you seal the MDF, did you just use a ton of primer? Are you using a spray gun, or just spraycans? Are you using a topcoat? What are you buffing it out at? 600grit, 0000 steel wool, 4F pumice?
I have actually done some test pieces with Rustoleum Metallic blue (spraycan) on birch plywood. Although I got a nice metallic sheen, it required a significant amount of primer/paint.
Very nice paint job, nice expensive drivers, you will have a great speaker, I am very jealous.
On the Crossover side:
Foobar actually has a FIR crossover plugin called divider, you should try it for prototyping before you sink real cash for a FIR crossover.
As for Pro speaker management crossovers: Most use IIR filters, just because it can do convolver does not mean all modules are programmed in FIR. Another option to DEQX is Lake Contour (FIR crossover). It is also very expensive. My understanding is both Behringer and Rane use IIR filters for their crossover section, call the companies to double check.
If understand you correctly, you already have RME, you should have aux sends, which you can use a VST or DirectX Plugin like Waves for your crossover. If you don’t have aux sends with your driver, I know emu-1820m does, and you can load it up with any filter you like. It is also significantly cheaper. MOTU is another more expensive option.
Also, FIR filters might give you some pre-echo, you should consult a digital filters text for more info.
Ordered the Behringer DCX2496 today, I figured I'd mess with this, upgrade the DAC's using the XO2 and go with digital input to limit the converstion to a single digtal-analogue conversion when the signal exits the behringer. I'm using the RME which has XLR digital out with AES/AEB so I won't need the SPDIF mod most do.
Finally I decided to add a pearllescent clear coat to the finish for a little more drama. Its come out very well but the camera doesn't seem to be able to capture tne subtle tonal change that I see. In fact it just looks very green even though the whole thing is blue!?!
Any tips so I can post a picture to show off the finished result?
Finally I decided to add a pearllescent clear coat to the finish for a little more drama. Its come out very well but the camera doesn't seem to be able to capture tne subtle tonal change that I see. In fact it just looks very green even though the whole thing is blue!?!
Any tips so I can post a picture to show off the finished result?
hi,
probably the best way to take a decent pic is to do it outside- the flash from the camera will do strange things as its being reflected back at 180 degrees to the camera. the light source needs to be at an angle to reflect properly off the pearlescent particles. take the pics when the sun is faily low in the sky, bout 7-8pm should be best at the mo.
good luck- cant wait to see how cool they look 😀
matt
probably the best way to take a decent pic is to do it outside- the flash from the camera will do strange things as its being reflected back at 180 degrees to the camera. the light source needs to be at an angle to reflect properly off the pearlescent particles. take the pics when the sun is faily low in the sky, bout 7-8pm should be best at the mo.
good luck- cant wait to see how cool they look 😀
matt
Re: Finish+crossover
The MDF was sealed with some of that purpose mixed 'MDF primer/sealer' from a company called Akzo Nobel. It was brushed on with 5 coats, no sanding inbetween just a thorough wet and dry after all the coats to a smooth finish using 360 grit.
I've hired a compressor from HSS Hire here in the UK to do my finish coats. I did originally try spray cans with a gloss black finish but the results weren't good enough for me.
Paint on there at the moment is 7 coats of Monaco Blue and 3 coats of Knigfisher Green Pearl. Paints were got from a local company who do matched 10ltr tins for £20-30 depending on the colour.
I don't have a top coat or laquer on there at the moment but I will of course add one because the pearl finish is very sensitive to grease/water etc. I'll be rubbing out at 1200 grit using wet and dry when the paint has cured and the laquer is added.
You need a very good primer base to get a good finish I've found. Like I said above, I did 5 coats of the specialist MDF primer/sealer. Apparently it stop the finish coats being absorbed by the MDF which is true to a certain extent but this still happens to a lesser degree, you need a lot of coats of your choosen finish to get the finish looking 'deep'.
Thanks 🙂
Thanks for the advice, I do like the idea of being able to use the PC as an XO. But for me its just to limited at the moment, not in features but more compatibility.
Really what I need is a driver level XO which works on platform or format independancy. You see I listen to MP3's, WAV's, APE, EAC etc. with winamp/foobar then I have the movie side of things with Theatertek, my digital TV box on the line in and finally PC games. ASIO would cover music and movies but games use specific compression methods and the line-in isn't ASIO. There simply isn't a program that can handle this task, the only way is either external hardware or driver level, which also implies card specific, XO software.
Cheers to motion for the heads up on kxproject but again it doesn't do what I need. The Audigy 2 isn't a high fedelity card either - I moved to the RME from an Audigy 2 ZS and the difference in quality was dramatic. Perhaps The output is also re-sampled to 48kHz using the window kmixer unless you use ASIO which is quirky at best on the Audigy drivers 🙁 The RME drivers completely bypass the mangling process performed by windows kmixer.
Maybe Creative will get it right with the Audigy 4? I have to say that the Audigy series is the very best card for multi-channel gaming formats such EAX. The RME is pretty rubbish in this area.
mbutzkies said:
The MDF was sealed with some of that purpose mixed 'MDF primer/sealer' from a company called Akzo Nobel. It was brushed on with 5 coats, no sanding inbetween just a thorough wet and dry after all the coats to a smooth finish using 360 grit.
I've hired a compressor from HSS Hire here in the UK to do my finish coats. I did originally try spray cans with a gloss black finish but the results weren't good enough for me.
Paint on there at the moment is 7 coats of Monaco Blue and 3 coats of Knigfisher Green Pearl. Paints were got from a local company who do matched 10ltr tins for £20-30 depending on the colour.
I don't have a top coat or laquer on there at the moment but I will of course add one because the pearl finish is very sensitive to grease/water etc. I'll be rubbing out at 1200 grit using wet and dry when the paint has cured and the laquer is added.
You need a very good primer base to get a good finish I've found. Like I said above, I did 5 coats of the specialist MDF primer/sealer. Apparently it stop the finish coats being absorbed by the MDF which is true to a certain extent but this still happens to a lesser degree, you need a lot of coats of your choosen finish to get the finish looking 'deep'.
Thanks 🙂
Thanks for the advice, I do like the idea of being able to use the PC as an XO. But for me its just to limited at the moment, not in features but more compatibility.
Really what I need is a driver level XO which works on platform or format independancy. You see I listen to MP3's, WAV's, APE, EAC etc. with winamp/foobar then I have the movie side of things with Theatertek, my digital TV box on the line in and finally PC games. ASIO would cover music and movies but games use specific compression methods and the line-in isn't ASIO. There simply isn't a program that can handle this task, the only way is either external hardware or driver level, which also implies card specific, XO software.
Cheers to motion for the heads up on kxproject but again it doesn't do what I need. The Audigy 2 isn't a high fedelity card either - I moved to the RME from an Audigy 2 ZS and the difference in quality was dramatic. Perhaps The output is also re-sampled to 48kHz using the window kmixer unless you use ASIO which is quirky at best on the Audigy drivers 🙁 The RME drivers completely bypass the mangling process performed by windows kmixer.
Maybe Creative will get it right with the Audigy 4? I have to say that the Audigy series is the very best card for multi-channel gaming formats such EAX. The RME is pretty rubbish in this area.
lufbramatt said:
Cheers Matt,
That's my problem then, I'm inside trying to use the flash with the picture and if I disable the flash the whole thing just looks blurred and dark because of the shutter time.
I'll pop it outside and see what happens with the flash off.
Thanks again.
OK, took the picture in natural daylight without the flash and they come out better. They do at least look blue now. You still don't quite get the wow of the pearl finish though but you can see the colour changes depending on how much light is hitting the panel.
My camera or the operator maybe at fault 🙂 I just set it to auto and let it decided what to do even though I'm quite sure its got a ton of manual features that I don't nearly understand. The camera is Fuji Finepix S3000.
EDIT: the pics still actually look more green than the blue/green pearl effect I'm seeing, oh well. You can see the colour change though if you compare to the other shots I took a page or two back.
My camera or the operator maybe at fault 🙂 I just set it to auto and let it decided what to do even though I'm quite sure its got a ton of manual features that I don't nearly understand. The camera is Fuji Finepix S3000.
EDIT: the pics still actually look more green than the blue/green pearl effect I'm seeing, oh well. You can see the colour change though if you compare to the other shots I took a page or two back.
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An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
ScottG said:
The other pics a page back are without the clearcoat of the pearlescent but you've got the right idea. That's exactly what I see, the less light the more intense the blue and with more light you see the more greeny blue comming through.
Looks great when indoors using a table lamp to light up the front, the angles on the baffle are all a completely different intensity of blue/green.
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