ShinOBIWAN said:
Or even something cheaper!
ITs a shame maplins nolonger sell audax drivers, they used to sell a tiny 15mm for £5. Nothing special but damned good bang for the buck, they would be perfect just to see what its like.
On the other hand if you have other tweeters around or in other speakers just remove them and give it a go!
I wouldnt even advocate using R2904's in an ambience position too expensive for the application.
I will try this tomorrow with some tweeters I have lying around and see what its effects are like.
Got the Vifa XT's here though, was saving them for the surrounds after picking them up for a very good price SH.
Unfortunately I can't mess with them at the moment since the cabinets are in the process of priming.
Just wanted to throw the idea around and see what others thought.
5th - If you do try it out please post back here with your thoughts, if you could try in phase and out that would be great. I'd also suggest a tad attenuation using just a in-line resistor, try without though but I'm guessing this will provide the best results.
Thanks,
Ant
Unfortunately I can't mess with them at the moment since the cabinets are in the process of priming.
Just wanted to throw the idea around and see what others thought.
5th - If you do try it out please post back here with your thoughts, if you could try in phase and out that would be great. I'd also suggest a tad attenuation using just a in-line resistor, try without though but I'm guessing this will provide the best results.
Thanks,
Ant
ShinOBIWAN said:
Ive not yet tested it. My test may be somewhat different to your application mind you, my speakers are compeltely open baffled so their directivity is considerably different to a monopole. I will give it a try now however.
The Vifa's are a bad idea for this application because of their limited off-axis response at high freq.s (which is the same prob. the scan.s have and why you would consider an ambience tweet.).
I'll look around for some that are more suitable to this application.
I'll look around for some that are more suitable to this application.
ScottG said:
I don't think its really important for an ambience driver to have minimum directivity. Its more about reflections off the room boundaries, similar in fashion to a dipole.
I've heard some Castle Howards that used a top firing driving to create more ambience. Sounded very good in that application.
Cheers, will be interesting to see what you come up with.
5th element said:
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts, though I suspect that this may be a limited excercise since you use dipoles already.
tough to find such a driver:
one option is to go with a high eff. driver with decent horizontal performance like the AurumCantus or Fountek 5 inch ribbons (the cheaper versions) and crossing over with a 1st order filter (a small value cap) at about the top of their bandwidth (..around 40kHz).
the second option is to use a similar driver eff. (to the scan.) that has excellent off-axis dispersion and use a wave guide (in front of the driver) to essentially guide the the forward radiation to the sides. HiVi (or swans) has some good drivers for this application:
http://www.swanspeaker.com/drivers/buglelist.asp?type=3
RT1E-P Isodynamic Tweeter
RT1C-A Isodynamic Tweeter
both of the options above have the driver attached to the "rear" baffle of the mid-tweeter module.
the third option is to use or make an omni (or perhaps a partial omni except for the foward +/- 15 degrees). If you make one again you'll be using a wave guide and this time the driver will be mounted on the top of the mid tweeter module (..and it could be integrated so that it acomidates the shape of the enclosure).
This shoud give you an idea:
http://www.audio.co.jp/speaker/kinu.htm
(note though that wave guide won't be 360 degrees like it is in this design - instead the front 30 degrees will NOT be exposed and will likely be used as the structural point to afix to the baffle. i.e. you'll see the front baffle "pyramid-like" but the sides and back will be open at the top, the top would of course be "closed" as well)
This driver should work nicely:
http://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/speaker_comp/pdf/ft17h.pdf
As far as which method will work best:
1st place method 3
2nd place method 2
3rd place method 1
one option is to go with a high eff. driver with decent horizontal performance like the AurumCantus or Fountek 5 inch ribbons (the cheaper versions) and crossing over with a 1st order filter (a small value cap) at about the top of their bandwidth (..around 40kHz).
the second option is to use a similar driver eff. (to the scan.) that has excellent off-axis dispersion and use a wave guide (in front of the driver) to essentially guide the the forward radiation to the sides. HiVi (or swans) has some good drivers for this application:
http://www.swanspeaker.com/drivers/buglelist.asp?type=3
RT1E-P Isodynamic Tweeter
RT1C-A Isodynamic Tweeter
both of the options above have the driver attached to the "rear" baffle of the mid-tweeter module.
the third option is to use or make an omni (or perhaps a partial omni except for the foward +/- 15 degrees). If you make one again you'll be using a wave guide and this time the driver will be mounted on the top of the mid tweeter module (..and it could be integrated so that it acomidates the shape of the enclosure).
This shoud give you an idea:
http://www.audio.co.jp/speaker/kinu.htm
(note though that wave guide won't be 360 degrees like it is in this design - instead the front 30 degrees will NOT be exposed and will likely be used as the structural point to afix to the baffle. i.e. you'll see the front baffle "pyramid-like" but the sides and back will be open at the top, the top would of course be "closed" as well)
This driver should work nicely:
http://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/speaker_comp/pdf/ft17h.pdf
As far as which method will work best:
1st place method 3
2nd place method 2
3rd place method 1
ShinOBIWAN said:
its important from a time-domain perspective (and overall quality).
if however you are only concerned with percieved spl then you will still need to have a driver that will provide enough spl at the freq.s you are interested in. A driver with high directivity will not have enough output to increase your percieved spl significantly (at least not at the freq.s we are concerned with).
Well I cant say it really made much difference at all appart from altering the tonal balance slightly due to more treble engery in the room. If anything the sound was more spacious with the extra tweeter but at the same time also a bit confused. The polarity didnt really seem to matter much. Certainly not worth spending a lot on IMO.
Ofcourse all I did was parallel up the two tweeters, with this being an active xover nothing will have changed frequency wise. My xover is about 2khz with 3rd or 4th order acoustic slopes I cannot remember exactly.
Ofcourse all I did was parallel up the two tweeters, with this being an active xover nothing will have changed frequency wise. My xover is about 2khz with 3rd or 4th order acoustic slopes I cannot remember exactly.
5th element said:
good descriptors!
your "tonal balance" was what I was regarding percieved spl.
as to "confusion" this depends on the time domain AND what the freq. is. A lot of people won't hear anything above 13kHz as anything but "air" and "tonal balance" - so confusion is usually limited in these upper freq.s. IF however you extend response of such a driver lower in freq. then you can have very serious problems that lead to "confusion".
I'll give the ambience thing a miss until I can research it more fully. Could be an interesting avenue to take though.
I recieved my replacement scan ring from Wilmslow Audio after the other was faulty. Top service from Neil and Terry as always.
Hopefully Pinkmouses' Krell KSA50 clone PCB's are ready soonish. I plan to swap out the ESP P101's for some tri-amped class A.
And finally the sats are primed sanded and ready for finishing coats. When the weather pics up I'll have them sprayed up. Will post some pictures with the results.
BTW: I've had my first experience with stereo since I got the scan back 🙂 This will come off as over enthusiastic self promotion but these will handle any design in the quality stakes and I mean anything. Don't care what it is, bring it on, these will will draw level with the very best. Scan, ATC, Seas, Rod of ESP all did great work, all I did was bring it together. These aren't speakers when you play them, start the music and they just dissappear! I've heard that all the time from other member, press etc. Its BS until you've heard it as its quite uncanny, I look at the speakers as music plays and nother ever seems to eminate from the drivers the music just sits above and around the speakers, even out of the room boundaries with some tracks. These speakers can so very easily pull your emotions out, they are so involving so realistic. Never fully experienced all this in one coherent whole and its a wonderful experience after owning and hearing some serious kit that underachieved.
Even at this stage the hopeless DIY'er in me is now thinking how can I top what I've got? Line arrays with the scan rings and ATC?
Go the ribbon route with the Raven R3 and some supravox full rangers?
I think for now I'll finish up here, add the krellclone class A amplification, enjoy these fantastic creations for some time and then plan the next big one 😉
I recieved my replacement scan ring from Wilmslow Audio after the other was faulty. Top service from Neil and Terry as always.
Hopefully Pinkmouses' Krell KSA50 clone PCB's are ready soonish. I plan to swap out the ESP P101's for some tri-amped class A.
And finally the sats are primed sanded and ready for finishing coats. When the weather pics up I'll have them sprayed up. Will post some pictures with the results.
BTW: I've had my first experience with stereo since I got the scan back 🙂 This will come off as over enthusiastic self promotion but these will handle any design in the quality stakes and I mean anything. Don't care what it is, bring it on, these will will draw level with the very best. Scan, ATC, Seas, Rod of ESP all did great work, all I did was bring it together. These aren't speakers when you play them, start the music and they just dissappear! I've heard that all the time from other member, press etc. Its BS until you've heard it as its quite uncanny, I look at the speakers as music plays and nother ever seems to eminate from the drivers the music just sits above and around the speakers, even out of the room boundaries with some tracks. These speakers can so very easily pull your emotions out, they are so involving so realistic. Never fully experienced all this in one coherent whole and its a wonderful experience after owning and hearing some serious kit that underachieved.
Even at this stage the hopeless DIY'er in me is now thinking how can I top what I've got? Line arrays with the scan rings and ATC?
Go the ribbon route with the Raven R3 and some supravox full rangers?I think for now I'll finish up here, add the krellclone class A amplification, enjoy these fantastic creations for some time and then plan the next big one 😉
ShinOBIWAN said:I'll give the ambience thing a miss until I can research it more fully. Could be an interesting avenue to take though.
I recieved my replacement scan ring from Wilmslow Audio after the other was faulty. Top service from Neil and Terry as always.
Hopefully Pinkmouses' Krell KSA50 clone PCB's are ready soonish. I plan to swap out the ESP P101's for some tri-amped class A.
And finally the sats are primed sanded and ready for finishing coats. When the weather pics up I'll have them sprayed up. Will post some pictures with the results.
BTW: I've had my first experience with stereo since I got the scan back 🙂 This will come off as over enthusiastic self promotion but these will handle any design in the quality stakes and I mean anything. Don't care what it is, bring it on, these will will draw level with the very best. Scan, ATC, Seas, Rod of ESP all did great work, all I did was bring it together. These aren't speakers when you play them, start the music and they just dissappear! I've heard that all the time from other member, press etc. Its BS until you've heard it as its quite uncanny, I look at the speakers as music plays and nother ever seems to eminate from the drivers the music just sits above and around the speakers, even out of the room boundaries with some tracks. These speakers can so very easily pull your emotions out, they are so involving so realistic. Never fully experienced all this in one coherent whole and its a wonderful experience after owning and hearing some serious kit that underachieved.
Even at this stage the hopeless DIY'er in me is now thinking how can I top what I've got? Line arrays with the scan rings and ATC?
I think for now I'll finish up here, add the krellclone class A amplification, enjoy these fantastic creations for some time and then plan the next big one 😉
This makes me wanna try the ATC mid dome. I think one area which is important to make a speaker dissapear is good compatability with radiation patterns, the shift from a cone to a dome is not perfect. But a dome mid to a dome tweeter... hmm maybe that the key.
My ears are somewhat sensative to certain things and annoyingly they are not identical! I always hear the tweeters in the left channel of a speaker set up. No matter what I do I cannot get it to go away, whereas the right channel is practically invisible.
Sounds like your very pleased with the result, glad to hear it, especially after the amount you have spent.
ShinOBIWAN said:Even at this stage the hopeless DIY'er in me is now thinking how can I top what I've got? Line arrays with the scan rings and ATC?
COOL!
I think you are already on the improvement route.. consider that you are changing amplification for the 3rd time now.. Frankly I think you should keep following this instinct and forget about a new loudspeaker (..in particular because I don't think you have even come close to exploring its true potential.)
So what upgrades?
The first "upgrade" I mention will be hideously expensive, but should provide a halucinatory experience F A R exceeding the improvement you already have found (..no joke). The second "upgrade" should effectivly "polish" things off - giving a much more linear response in-room and allowing for greater slopes (providing lower distortion and extended response for your drivers), better time-alignment, etc.
If I were you this is what I'd do:
1st:
Tweeter and Mid amps (4 monoblocs) based on Andrea's design here:
http://www.audiodesignguide.com/my/pse2.html
3-Phase power supply for each monobloc as Peder has done:
http://www.arduman.com/aa/Sayfalar/peder/peder.htm
Using the new (FANTASTIC) Amorphous Core versions of Lundahl's interstage and output transformers. (they are "drop-in" replacements for the transformers Andrea has spec'ed and are quite possibly the best of their kind - period, though they are more limited in power output vs. distortion).
Also considering the power limitations of the transformers I'd contact Andrea (he's a really nice guy) and ask him to alter the design for even better sounding input/driver tubes and output tubes - substitutions as follows:
Output tube: TJ "mesh" PX25 (2 amp heater version)
Input/Driver tube: TJ "mesh" 101D or 102D (which ever will work best)
One common source is:
http://www.diyhifisupply.com/diyhs_tj_tubes.htm
Direct Heating with these:
http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/tentlabs/heatersupply.htm
Hookup wire from:
http://home.att.net/~chimeraone/cccaudiowireccaudiosolder.html
2nd:
Go digital with your crossover:
http://pcazeles.perso.cegetel.net/acxo.htm
Of course then you get into digital "out" cards:
http://www.rme-audio.com
DAC's:
http://www.kandkaudio.com/digitalaudio.html
Volume controls:
http://www.bentaudio.com/index2.html
And "quiet" PC & server design:
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/bbs.html
I will just add that the ACXO requires a download of some NET framework tools. This is a large download from microsoft of 317MB.
Unless there is another way to make this thing run please say!
Unless there is another way to make this thing run please say!
ScottG said:
I saw that before and realised my error😀
I have been playing with the program for a bit now and god damned is that thing difficult to please!
I wanted to see what effect it would have on my open baffles, now I have converted from sealed mid and bass to both OB with a little help from the KX project as described by motion above.
Now I know the mid tweeter xover is good, I designed it in lspcad and the ACXO confirmed it, infact it gave 100% match pretty much to the lspcad predicted response. From about 250hz up everything is flat.
I knew the mid-bass xover was problematic, I have not even tried to make it correct yet. I was hoping that the ACXO would help this, WRONG! unless your speakers are already flat to begin with the program runs into problems, clipping and the signal level being too low. The kind of thing you'd want it to solve are room modes, I had to use the KX to get rid of mine before the program was happy.
The main issue is this, room modes peak the response massively, to prevent clipping on the modes you turn down the amp, but now all the stuff appart from the room modes is too low in level to be of any use so the program says you have a measurement error. To correct this you need to turn the amp up, but then the room modes clip the input.
I finally got to the end of the setup and Im dissapointed really, the sound is not an improvement over the unconvolved version. It added WAY to much warmth to the sound so that voices, especially sound bloated. The one thing it did do was allow me to get my tweeter level correct, JustMLS doesnt like it much if you cannot connect the amplifier input to the wallin jig, with an active setup this is not really possible. But it shows you what your speakers frequency response is like so you can fine tune it yourself.
5th element said:
I haven't played with it yet. You might try contacting the program's creator and see if he has a viable solution. Several people have noted an improvement with the use of the DRC module - so I wouldn't give up on it after only a day's experimentation.
Here is a guy who used the DRC without the ACXO (and note that he is eq'ing the hell out of 'em):
http://www.duffroomcorrection.com/index.php/User:Birkinshawc
ScottG said:
See that was the problem, I had to experiment beyond what I though were acceptable limits just to please the program. I thought it would be able to handle a 10dB peak or 10dB dip, unless I missed something it cannot.
5th element said:
perhaps the fault isn't in the program, but rather the output stage of the dac (..or something else)?
In any event, consider the time and expense you have already expended. I'm betting that the time you have spent with the ACXO is comparitivly small, and I believe the potential benefit could be large. But if you have reached your "fo-get-about-it" threashold, then so be it.
(..hmm, makes me wonder how long it took you to use LSPcad and JustLMS? It took me awhile to figure out how to use LoudspeakerLab and its interface is relativly simple by comparison - but don't think I didn't want to give up on it on several times.)
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