Great work with sketchup there, they do indeed look a little racy in that red outfit. 😆 It's nice to see designs that will work with a range of drivers, and the PRV seem very capable for what they are.
There is a guy in the quarterwave group that made 8 or 12 scoops cant recall, with the 15SW2000's
he says that before he killed a couple torturing them to see how far they can push them with an OLD Skool bridged MACROTECH 2400, no HP filter at full throttle just before clipping, he added that the drivers got killed by thermal overheat of the coil , but the cones did not rip off nor the suspension, so he suspects that PRV guys added some kind of plastic material besides paper. kevlar ? , urethane ?
he says that before he killed a couple torturing them to see how far they can push them with an OLD Skool bridged MACROTECH 2400, no HP filter at full throttle just before clipping, he added that the drivers got killed by thermal overheat of the coil , but the cones did not rip off nor the suspension, so he suspects that PRV guys added some kind of plastic material besides paper. kevlar ? , urethane ?
If PRV was using material besides paper in the cone, they would likely put it in the specs.
The 15SW2000's voice coil is not fully in the gap past 9.5mm excursion, nothing unusual about burning voice coils with paper cones before mechanical failure.
With compressed music, easy to toast a "1000 watt" coil with 1035 or 1585 watts available.
The 15SW2000's voice coil is not fully in the gap past 9.5mm excursion, nothing unusual about burning voice coils with paper cones before mechanical failure.
With compressed music, easy to toast a "1000 watt" coil with 1035 or 1585 watts available.
I agree , idk why they don't disclose it, and according to the guy who killed some in the name of science he had trouble cutting the cone with a knife, that's why he think the cone have something else besides paper
Is this the woofer? Seems to say there's glass fibre reinforcement perhaps but i gather its pretty common for glass fibre or kevlar etc to be mixed with cellulose in a paper cone? Not my area of expert knowledge however 🙂. https://prvaudio.com/products/15sw2000/
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It's good you have access to PRV. Where I live the SB Audience drivers seem to be going into a lot of HOQS subs. The parent company SINAR BAJA ELECTRIC GROUP make some even more affordable drivers (ACR) that look to have pretty good specs. Can't get them in Australia but there's enough very wild sound systems punting around East Java to suggest they do the business!
What you can get in Australia ?
Btw, a guy of the HOQS group built a pair of double 18 type O cabinets, thing is that he did not used a "recommended" driver from the list shown in the plans, instead he used a pair of budget LaVoce 18's on each cab, and despite people over there claim that weak cone drivers got shredded inside the skram type O, this LaVoce ones did not break a sweat inside the cabs according to their owner.
And some people say things like tactile bass, well this guy said that his subs liquify the air when you are at 5 meters in front of them,
Love what people come up regarding terms to describe their own perception of what bass feels or is being heard 🤣
There is a double 15" plan for the type O, maybe that will fit to my PRV's ... Or they will die puking the cones in pieces out of the basket, can't recall who said that normally when the cine shred, is the one inside the cabinet , not the one facing the mouth , maybe too much compression inside the cabinet?
Btw, a guy of the HOQS group built a pair of double 18 type O cabinets, thing is that he did not used a "recommended" driver from the list shown in the plans, instead he used a pair of budget LaVoce 18's on each cab, and despite people over there claim that weak cone drivers got shredded inside the skram type O, this LaVoce ones did not break a sweat inside the cabs according to their owner.
And some people say things like tactile bass, well this guy said that his subs liquify the air when you are at 5 meters in front of them,
Love what people come up regarding terms to describe their own perception of what bass feels or is being heard 🤣
There is a double 15" plan for the type O, maybe that will fit to my PRV's ... Or they will die puking the cones in pieces out of the basket, can't recall who said that normally when the cine shred, is the one inside the cabinet , not the one facing the mouth , maybe too much compression inside the cabinet?
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I'd imagine the Nero 15" would work better with it's 14.25mm xmax. Interestingly ive summed with the Nero in multiple cabs at this point and it performs very similarly to the 21sw152 from B&C. I imagine the real world thermal management would be similar too. Two 4.5" coils is roughly equivalent to a single 6" coil.
Not a lot.
SB audience through Wagner/Wes, B&C group through surgesound, Faital through DJ city (or store DJ, I always get the two confused). I'm not aware of other international drivers being easily available, although we have our own manufacturer down in Melbourne called Lorantz that makes some decent drivers, they do tend to lack Xmax tho...
Well Xmax is not all, back in the days 6mm and 8mm was the max , 18tbx60 and later 18tbx100 was the norm.
Cabinets was big most of the time FLH
Designs and they were stacked 2 or 3 times in each corner of the dance floor facing it.
there was famous clubs around the world that had impressive sound systems that when you in the dance floor your guts shake.
The key was multiples , with today high Xmax drivers you need less drivers to hit certain SPL, back in the days they used more drivers and more amps as amplifiers were modest rated watts wise , expensive as hell and heavy as hell (big core transformers ) ohhh and were not power efficient, class A or Class AB , class D did not exist at the time.
Switching power supplies and power factor correction was not implemented or discovered yet? That idk.
And besides they generate heat like furnaces 🤣
Still great sounding systems were designed.
Efficiency was the name of the game as with limited amplification and Xmax of not so advanced manufacturing technology for drivers, you need to squeeze out every mm of displacement and watts feed in to the system and convert those to SPL.
Wish I had lived that golden era....ohh my 😎
Cabinets was big most of the time FLH
Designs and they were stacked 2 or 3 times in each corner of the dance floor facing it.
there was famous clubs around the world that had impressive sound systems that when you in the dance floor your guts shake.
The key was multiples , with today high Xmax drivers you need less drivers to hit certain SPL, back in the days they used more drivers and more amps as amplifiers were modest rated watts wise , expensive as hell and heavy as hell (big core transformers ) ohhh and were not power efficient, class A or Class AB , class D did not exist at the time.
Switching power supplies and power factor correction was not implemented or discovered yet? That idk.
And besides they generate heat like furnaces 🤣
Still great sounding systems were designed.
Efficiency was the name of the game as with limited amplification and Xmax of not so advanced manufacturing technology for drivers, you need to squeeze out every mm of displacement and watts feed in to the system and convert those to SPL.
Wish I had lived that golden era....ohh my 😎
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Very true, however I would make the argument that in the context of this thread, xmax is important, which is why I mentioned it.
I've certainly considered using Lorantz units for FLH apps, as their efficiency is quite good, and their more "classic" specs suit the acoustic loads of horns better than most. But as most subwoofer designers these days are interested in maximum output as opposed to efficiency, they don't quite cut the mustard in comparison to other brands.
Check art keystone
Xoc1 th18
Epa FT30
Ricci skram,Othorn,skhorn
It all comes down to what you want to achieve, then setting a realistic time frame that depends on your budget, I wish I can get 16 18sw115's and CNC 16 FT30 cabs (EPA mod to the xoc1 th18 to hit 30 instead of 35) made by crescendo and other people.
To put 8 per side and 2 rows of 4...
Or center cluster as 2 rows of 8.
And a bunch of power soft amps
But I do not have the means so I am stick with low count of budget drivers with scarce low end amplification and old processing.
But every case is different
Set your budget then your goals according to the budget then your time frame for the project and then source the materials.
Sky's the limit
One wise man over here said
One sub is better than no sub at all!!
Haaaa! Found it
It was littlemike who said it
Read this
Post in thread 'Furysub, Apache H15, or Jbell 2' cube' https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/furysub-apache-h15-or-jbell-2-cube.394208/post-7229989
Xoc1 th18
Epa FT30
Ricci skram,Othorn,skhorn
It all comes down to what you want to achieve, then setting a realistic time frame that depends on your budget, I wish I can get 16 18sw115's and CNC 16 FT30 cabs (EPA mod to the xoc1 th18 to hit 30 instead of 35) made by crescendo and other people.
To put 8 per side and 2 rows of 4...
Or center cluster as 2 rows of 8.
And a bunch of power soft amps
But I do not have the means so I am stick with low count of budget drivers with scarce low end amplification and old processing.
But every case is different
Set your budget then your goals according to the budget then your time frame for the project and then source the materials.
Sky's the limit
One wise man over here said
One sub is better than no sub at all!!
Haaaa! Found it
It was littlemike who said it
Read this
Post in thread 'Furysub, Apache H15, or Jbell 2' cube' https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/furysub-apache-h15-or-jbell-2-cube.394208/post-7229989
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I've got to admit I'm not really sure where you're going with this?
To be clear, I'm quite aware of the limitations of drivers, and why certain models are used in certain applications, so if you're trying to educate me on the use of drivers, I do appreciate it, but I already know.
As far as the models of subwoofer, I'm also quite aware, I have skhorns, tapped horns and bass reflex in my inventory.
If there's something else you're trying to explain please let me know, maybe I missed something.
To be clear, I'm quite aware of the limitations of drivers, and why certain models are used in certain applications, so if you're trying to educate me on the use of drivers, I do appreciate it, but I already know.
As far as the models of subwoofer, I'm also quite aware, I have skhorns, tapped horns and bass reflex in my inventory.
If there's something else you're trying to explain please let me know, maybe I missed something.
Never mind
I lost track of your background
And my comments was to help a guy float on the pool when he was a full seasoned navy seal!!
😂
Disregard the stuff that is no sense to you
And let's move forward
😉
(Age and lack of sleep are a bad mix)😆
I lost track of your background
And my comments was to help a guy float on the pool when he was a full seasoned navy seal!!
😂
Disregard the stuff that is no sense to you
And let's move forward
😉
(Age and lack of sleep are a bad mix)😆
You're all good mate. I rarely post on this forum so I can easily understand how my background could get "lost in translation" so to speak. If anything it's my own fault for not posting enough.
And truly, I do appreciate your efforts to help! I wouldn't be a "fully seasoned navy seal" without the help of folks like you. Just figured you might want to save the energy for someone who does need it 😉.
As for the comments regarding drivers, the reason I suggested the Nero 15" was because I'm pretty sure the excursion limits would be passed for a 35hz cabinet before the thermal limits, so I figured it may be a sensible choice to at least Sim the model to see how it performs. Maybe I'll just have to pull up a Sim myself to help contribute to the chat.
And truly, I do appreciate your efforts to help! I wouldn't be a "fully seasoned navy seal" without the help of folks like you. Just figured you might want to save the energy for someone who does need it 😉.
As for the comments regarding drivers, the reason I suggested the Nero 15" was because I'm pretty sure the excursion limits would be passed for a 35hz cabinet before the thermal limits, so I figured it may be a sensible choice to at least Sim the model to see how it performs. Maybe I'll just have to pull up a Sim myself to help contribute to the chat.
It's 4:45am over here , I am -5GMT
I will get some sleep but now you will make me to sim the thing asap 😆
I simmed several drivers if you go back this thread.
Btw
What happened to this thread of yours
Only 2 replies , I guess cause BFM did not get much praise over here after past incidents.
I will get some sleep but now you will make me to sim the thing asap 😆
I simmed several drivers if you go back this thread.
Btw
What happened to this thread of yours
Only 2 replies , I guess cause BFM did not get much praise over here after past incidents.
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I ended up biting the bullet and building the cabs with a close friend of mine. We didn't follow all the advice (insufficient bracing and poor quality timber), as such the cabs ripped themselves apart (failed bracing joints) in a fairly short timeframe.
To remedy this we pretensioned the horn path with carriage bolts (I don't know if that's the term for them in the land of the west), pretty much just huge 8" long screws. The joints were re-glued and seem to be ok. Unfortunately after only a couple of uses after the cabinet issues were solved the drivers began to hit the bracing in front of them (we had around 13mm clearance in front of the cones and assumed that would be sufficient with 10/11mm of xmax to work with). Turns out maximum excursion in pro drivers is not the same as xmax, as I'm sure you know. Definitely user error.
Lesson learnt, and my mate and I decided to build skhorns as we had by this point realised the weak point of FLH, that excursion peaks at the low corner and limits maximum output.
To give bill credit, the cabs did as advertised, they were very light, and we would not have had excursion issues if we'd followed the instructions to a T (used correct drivers, used less power - we had 1.2kw class ab amps bridged into each driver, and to top it off we were boosting 30hz). The power density just proved to be insufficient, and pack size was more important to us than pack weight.
All in all I've learnt a lot in the last five years looking back at it, and it wasn't long ago I really wouldn't have had much of an idea of what you were talking about, but I've studied hard and learnt a lot, and intend to keep learning as much as I can, although I certainly feel that diminishing returns has definitely kicked in at this point.
To remedy this we pretensioned the horn path with carriage bolts (I don't know if that's the term for them in the land of the west), pretty much just huge 8" long screws. The joints were re-glued and seem to be ok. Unfortunately after only a couple of uses after the cabinet issues were solved the drivers began to hit the bracing in front of them (we had around 13mm clearance in front of the cones and assumed that would be sufficient with 10/11mm of xmax to work with). Turns out maximum excursion in pro drivers is not the same as xmax, as I'm sure you know. Definitely user error.
Lesson learnt, and my mate and I decided to build skhorns as we had by this point realised the weak point of FLH, that excursion peaks at the low corner and limits maximum output.
To give bill credit, the cabs did as advertised, they were very light, and we would not have had excursion issues if we'd followed the instructions to a T (used correct drivers, used less power - we had 1.2kw class ab amps bridged into each driver, and to top it off we were boosting 30hz). The power density just proved to be insufficient, and pack size was more important to us than pack weight.
All in all I've learnt a lot in the last five years looking back at it, and it wasn't long ago I really wouldn't have had much of an idea of what you were talking about, but I've studied hard and learnt a lot, and intend to keep learning as much as I can, although I certainly feel that diminishing returns has definitely kicked in at this point.
Here is sims of both the SB audience Nero 15sw800 and Rosso 15sw800, the Nero is the grey line and the Rosso the black line. There really isn't much in it as a raw voltage difference, and some may argue the slower roll-off characteristics of the rosso would be advantageous (I'd hazard a guess this is due to the Fs being far more suitable for a 35hz tuned tapped horn).
However the sims as shown are the same voltage - 67 volts- and the Nero does very slightly outperform the Rosso at the comparison frequency (35.2hz). In the real world the larger voice coil (4.5" vs 4"), cooling device which generates turbulence to cool the pole piece, and larger excursion would all allow for greater output IMO.
Of course the price goes up, and so does the weight too, as such in a home application or where more cabs is an option I'm not sure the Nero is really the winner.
However the sims as shown are the same voltage - 67 volts- and the Nero does very slightly outperform the Rosso at the comparison frequency (35.2hz). In the real world the larger voice coil (4.5" vs 4"), cooling device which generates turbulence to cool the pole piece, and larger excursion would all allow for greater output IMO.
Of course the price goes up, and so does the weight too, as such in a home application or where more cabs is an option I'm not sure the Nero is really the winner.