That's interesting... obviously I'd have thought that blending 2 box speakers below 100 Hz would be easier! If you knew you had 2 sealed subs at your disposal, would you be inclined to reduce the MiniDSP boost below around 60 Hz? I believe you once mentioned that a softer transition between subs and satellites actually works better.
Fair point about crossing directly to OB at 60 Hz (though still a 4-way? not that it matters). It's merely the limitation that IIRC your other designs cost 2x or more of the budget. That's not meant as a criticism of those other designs in the slightest--he's just targeting $1000 USD plus amps for this foray into speakers and the Flanagansters seem like an amazing offering for that kind of money. Given the amount of time/effort involved in the system build I don't feel it makes sense to try to downspec anything, though. A small bump up somewhere would be ok, but not at the risk of needed to mess with significantly new settings.
Actually, is it possible to port the DSP settings to the Flex Eight? It could makes sense for him to manage his sealed subs with the extra channels (and you've said the Eight sounds better... might be worth the splurge, especially since he could find a less expensive amp for the subs).
Is the 7 degree leanback angle mostly for looks and stability? Is there an intended listening distance where being too close/far messes with the soundstage?
How much power is needed for the tweeter section and the mid/bass section? Any amp recommendations?
Out of curiosity, does the mid driver start to beam as it nears 2 kHz? I'll add that the idea of a single high-efficiency driver from 100-2 kHz with solid Sd seems appealing.
Sorry for all the questions! It's just such interesting stuff. 🙂
Fair point about crossing directly to OB at 60 Hz (though still a 4-way? not that it matters). It's merely the limitation that IIRC your other designs cost 2x or more of the budget. That's not meant as a criticism of those other designs in the slightest--he's just targeting $1000 USD plus amps for this foray into speakers and the Flanagansters seem like an amazing offering for that kind of money. Given the amount of time/effort involved in the system build I don't feel it makes sense to try to downspec anything, though. A small bump up somewhere would be ok, but not at the risk of needed to mess with significantly new settings.
Actually, is it possible to port the DSP settings to the Flex Eight? It could makes sense for him to manage his sealed subs with the extra channels (and you've said the Eight sounds better... might be worth the splurge, especially since he could find a less expensive amp for the subs).
Is the 7 degree leanback angle mostly for looks and stability? Is there an intended listening distance where being too close/far messes with the soundstage?
How much power is needed for the tweeter section and the mid/bass section? Any amp recommendations?
Out of curiosity, does the mid driver start to beam as it nears 2 kHz? I'll add that the idea of a single high-efficiency driver from 100-2 kHz with solid Sd seems appealing.
Sorry for all the questions! It's just such interesting stuff. 🙂
3 way is hard enough. 4 way is even harder. More crossovers = more difficulty. Crossing a reflex at 40Hz means the high pass slope is 6th order so tons of phase shift = makes it even harder to blend. More amps, more complexity.
If he wants deeper bass, he can make the Flanagangster box bigger, use a 15 or 18 instead of a 12 and EQ accordingly.
You can't port 2x4HD files to Flex Eight but you can hand copy all of the filter settings and they'll work the same.
7 degree leanback is needed for the tweeters to be on axis at sitting position. If you make a bigger box with a bigger woofer and the system is taller, then you don't need the 7 degrees.
If you're a typical "Stereophile" audiophile who listens at typical SPLs for that crowd, then 10 watts on the tweeters and 30 watts on the woofers should be plenty. Midband SPL is 96dB.
If you're extending bass to 20Hz it will take lots of EQ so maybe you need 100 watts.
You can see from this plot how beamy the midrange is at 2K - it matches the tweeter fairly close. This graph is from the first post in this thread.
If he wants deeper bass, he can make the Flanagangster box bigger, use a 15 or 18 instead of a 12 and EQ accordingly.
You can't port 2x4HD files to Flex Eight but you can hand copy all of the filter settings and they'll work the same.
7 degree leanback is needed for the tweeters to be on axis at sitting position. If you make a bigger box with a bigger woofer and the system is taller, then you don't need the 7 degrees.
If you're a typical "Stereophile" audiophile who listens at typical SPLs for that crowd, then 10 watts on the tweeters and 30 watts on the woofers should be plenty. Midband SPL is 96dB.
If you're extending bass to 20Hz it will take lots of EQ so maybe you need 100 watts.
You can see from this plot how beamy the midrange is at 2K - it matches the tweeter fairly close. This graph is from the first post in this thread.
Maybe I didn't express that well. Or didn't understand you correctly?
I took this as external sub + woofer + mid + tweeter = 4. Live Edge plus subs, Flanaganster plus subs. I'm not trying to be pedantic... just trying to follow your comments. 🙂
The Flanagansters aren't designed to play a 16 Hz organ, which is fine. Few speakers are, often for excellent reasons. My friend wants to at least have a path to get there.
The graph looks good to this inexperienced eye. How high could the 15OB350 cross to a tweeter without directivity problems?
Good news about the migration to the Flex Eight! Those wattage requirements are modest. Thanks for the guidance!
My friend's room is quite long and voluminous. For his particular application, perhaps the higher tweeter and shallower angle might work better. The 7 degrees assumed a listening distance of about 9 feet?
I took this as external sub + woofer + mid + tweeter = 4. Live Edge plus subs, Flanaganster plus subs. I'm not trying to be pedantic... just trying to follow your comments. 🙂
The Flanagansters aren't designed to play a 16 Hz organ, which is fine. Few speakers are, often for excellent reasons. My friend wants to at least have a path to get there.
The graph looks good to this inexperienced eye. How high could the 15OB350 cross to a tweeter without directivity problems?
Good news about the migration to the Flex Eight! Those wattage requirements are modest. Thanks for the guidance!
My friend's room is quite long and voluminous. For his particular application, perhaps the higher tweeter and shallower angle might work better. The 7 degrees assumed a listening distance of about 9 feet?
What I meant by "3 way" in the quote was something more like this: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/the-walnut-dipoles.404187/post-7836289
(I'd prefer a larger waveguide - 8" not 6, I would cross over at 1500Hz and that way I think the tweeter and the 15OB250 radiation patterns would match well.)
Active instead of DSP, crossed at 60Hz to a sub, would be an elegant way to go. Of course make them as tall as you like, they don't have to be short and squat like the Walnut Dipoles.
That's one path to 16Hz. Another path is a Flanagangster with a 15 or 18" lower woofer, sealed, or a passive radiator tuned to 18Hz, with a lot of EQ.
Yes, 7 degrees assumed typical listening situation. Adjust as you wish so you're on axis.
(I'd prefer a larger waveguide - 8" not 6, I would cross over at 1500Hz and that way I think the tweeter and the 15OB250 radiation patterns would match well.)
Active instead of DSP, crossed at 60Hz to a sub, would be an elegant way to go. Of course make them as tall as you like, they don't have to be short and squat like the Walnut Dipoles.
That's one path to 16Hz. Another path is a Flanagangster with a 15 or 18" lower woofer, sealed, or a passive radiator tuned to 18Hz, with a lot of EQ.
Yes, 7 degrees assumed typical listening situation. Adjust as you wish so you're on axis.
To put a finer point on it, this system with a 15OB350 instead of a LaVoce 15 fits the bill very nicely. The beryllium tweeter is amazing:
https://psma-website-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/live_edge_beryllium_dipoles.pdf
Crossover to sub between 50-70
Hz
https://psma-website-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/live_edge_beryllium_dipoles.pdf
Crossover to sub between 50-70
Hz
Thanks for the answers, makes sense now. I think active DSP crossed around 60 Hz to subs is a very attractive path to follow.
It's funny, I'd forgotten that your Live Edge Beryllium Dipoles went straight from a 15" driver to a tweeter, while still having wings for bass reinforcement. The SB 15OB350 would offer more xmax headroom? And would require a different XO, I'm assuming?
It's funny, I'd forgotten that your Live Edge Beryllium Dipoles went straight from a 15" driver to a tweeter, while still having wings for bass reinforcement. The SB 15OB350 would offer more xmax headroom? And would require a different XO, I'm assuming?
Back to the Flanagansters, could the 12" drivers be mounted from the back of the baffle? Or would the resulting 3/4" round/chamfer around the perimeter mess up the FR of the upper driver?
15OB350 has twice the XMax. Crossover would need some tweaks.
You could rear mount the Flanagangster woofer but the front panel is more like 1.5-2” thick, not 3/4”. 1.5 is too much IMHO. 3/4 would probably be fine.
You could rear mount the Flanagangster woofer but the front panel is more like 1.5-2” thick, not 3/4”. 1.5 is too much IMHO. 3/4 would probably be fine.
Great, thanks Perry. I should have described it better... I'd router out from the back to leave a depth for the flange of 5/8-3/4 of an inch, then open up the angles to let the driver breathe on both sides. Just makes the driver look smaller and hides the mounting screws.
For fun tonight I eyeballed a Flanaganster with the tweeter on top. Then I measured what I'd come up with. The baffle was 42" high, 17" wide at the bottom, tapering to about 12.5" at the top. The BR box zone started at full width and tapered back a few degrees on both sides to shed some visual weight. In real time I wasn't sure how far up to carry the side wings, and tried 2 profiles, but the basic idea was increasing the volume by making the rear chamber a bit deeper at the top. I haven't calculated the volume, but would match your (Perry) design.
One of my specialties is making rapid models to assess volume and proportion... and they're almost always sinfully ugly. I can see the final product in my mind's eye...
Rear-mounting only the middle driver might give a nice taper to the black spaces. I also like the original MTMish layout.
The slight tilt to the side undoubtedly would give it that special something. 🙂
For fun tonight I eyeballed a Flanaganster with the tweeter on top. Then I measured what I'd come up with. The baffle was 42" high, 17" wide at the bottom, tapering to about 12.5" at the top. The BR box zone started at full width and tapered back a few degrees on both sides to shed some visual weight. In real time I wasn't sure how far up to carry the side wings, and tried 2 profiles, but the basic idea was increasing the volume by making the rear chamber a bit deeper at the top. I haven't calculated the volume, but would match your (Perry) design.
One of my specialties is making rapid models to assess volume and proportion... and they're almost always sinfully ugly. I can see the final product in my mind's eye...
Rear-mounting only the middle driver might give a nice taper to the black spaces. I also like the original MTMish layout.
The slight tilt to the side undoubtedly would give it that special something. 🙂
If you want the bottom woofer to handle a lot of bass, you should pick a different bottom driver than the PA310.
Faital and B&C have good large-Xmax high efficiency drivers.
The current design doesn’t have a lot of room for a long port and is tuned to about 42 Hz. You’d need a passive radiator to tune it lower.
Faital and B&C have good large-Xmax high efficiency drivers.
The current design doesn’t have a lot of room for a long port and is tuned to about 42 Hz. You’d need a passive radiator to tune it lower.
Hi Perry, thanks as always for responding quickly with your thoughts. Reviewing your initial writeup, I think the description is very much in line with the needs of my friend.
He's heard my new subwoofer and knows that he wants to get his own system down to 20 Hz, so is planning on 2 sealed 12" subs (preferably controlled by the MiniDSP Flex Eight) to cover from there up to about 50 Hz or whatever ends up sounding best in his space.
Based on your description above as being "party-capable" when needed and having high dynamic range paired with a non-etched/fatiguing high end, your existing design should be an excellent fit!
I should add that your generosity in sharing what you have is key--while I'd like to explore this over time, neither of us is experienced in DSP, crossover design, measuring speakers, generating FIR filters etc etc, so sticking reasonably close to a predictable result makes a ton of sense. I'll be learning more over time, but know there's an enormous skill and knowledge learning curve to go up.
I was just looking at the cardboard model, thinking, you know, the SB 15OB350 could sit really nicely in there at the bottom... skip the ports/closed zone and add a few bucks in drivers over the PA310... take it full OB to 60 Hz or so... reopening the can of worms with a design that doesn't quite exist yet. 🙄
Then I reviewed some of the earlier part of this thread, with sample key discussion in the quote above. Given no subs, the straight Flanagangsters are a no brainer for the price point. With subs in the mix anyway... not sure?
If the 12" PA310 could hand off to the 15" 15OB350 with a similar simple passive network (no additional amp needed) it would be a... Flanacottonwood?
Fun to think about, but probably past my current pay grade! 🙂
Thanks, Perry. Do you happen to already know what would change for passive XO, FIR and DSP settings? Or would literally the same values and some DSP adjustment on the boost/high pass be enough?
I think I'd be comfortable enough adjusting the more straightforward DSP stuff. More sophisticated aspects like managing phase, impedance, passive XO stuff, optimal hand-off between 12" and 15" drivers, etc. is still a stretch. I'd rather not throw the dice with a friend's money, hence being a bit conservative!
I think I'd be comfortable enough adjusting the more straightforward DSP stuff. More sophisticated aspects like managing phase, impedance, passive XO stuff, optimal hand-off between 12" and 15" drivers, etc. is still a stretch. I'd rather not throw the dice with a friend's money, hence being a bit conservative!
Maybe an interesting conversation... the pros/cons/sound quality in the midrange of running the SB 15OB350 up to 1500 Hz (Cottonwoods) vs the PA310 from 100 Hz to a similar XO frequency (Flanagangsters)? Vs BB 15" B&C coax over that range, and vs Live Edge 8" Radian coax (or 10" 5210) from about 200 on up?
To make sure I'm understanding correctly, if I were to drop the existing ported woofer section using the PA310 and replace it with a 15OB350 in pure dipole that's high passed at around 50-60 Hz, I'd mostly be able to dial in the IIR values together with the sub xo?
I'm curious about the different paths to get from across the frequency spectrum. Would you be willing to compare these 3 approaches, from different designs? Sound quality, directivity, other attributes (and assuming subs for below 60 Hz)?
1. 15OB350 --> 100 Hz; PA310 mid from 100 Hz --> 1500 Hz; Audax TW034X0 > 1500 Hz. Flanaganster with BR woofer section swapped for 15OB350 in OB.
2. 15OB350 --> 200 Hz; Radian 5208c/5210 mid 200 Hz --> 2000 Hz; Aluminum compression dome> 2000 Hz. Live Edge with 15OB350 rather than Kappa.
3. 15OB350 --> 1500 Hz; SB TN29BNWG 1500 Hz --> 20000 Hz. Cottonwood Beryllium with 15OB350 swapped in (if makes sense; otherwise the Lavoce WAN153)
Hopefully I've got the crossover frequencies correct!
#1 is the least expensive, in line with the original cost and size-focused design intent. For reference, this "Flanawood" variant is about $150 more than the stock Flanaganster (15OB350 costs more than PA310, and then minus the flared ports).
If I've got the numbers right, going to #2 adds about $400 vs #1, and #3 adds about $200 over #2 (thus $600 over #1).
1. 15OB350 --> 100 Hz; PA310 mid from 100 Hz --> 1500 Hz; Audax TW034X0 > 1500 Hz. Flanaganster with BR woofer section swapped for 15OB350 in OB.
2. 15OB350 --> 200 Hz; Radian 5208c/5210 mid 200 Hz --> 2000 Hz; Aluminum compression dome> 2000 Hz. Live Edge with 15OB350 rather than Kappa.
3. 15OB350 --> 1500 Hz; SB TN29BNWG 1500 Hz --> 20000 Hz. Cottonwood Beryllium with 15OB350 swapped in (if makes sense; otherwise the Lavoce WAN153)
Hopefully I've got the crossover frequencies correct!
#1 is the least expensive, in line with the original cost and size-focused design intent. For reference, this "Flanawood" variant is about $150 more than the stock Flanaganster (15OB350 costs more than PA310, and then minus the flared ports).
If I've got the numbers right, going to #2 adds about $400 vs #1, and #3 adds about $200 over #2 (thus $600 over #1).
They're all good options.
The tweeters in #2 and #3 are significantly better than the Audax. (I prefer a very detailed high end. The Audax is very laid back, very "soft dome." Some people may prefer that.)
The SB TN29BNWG is an insanely good tweeter. Better than the aluminum version of the Radian 5208.
Beryllium 5208 is a tossup vs the TN29BNWG.
Reason why: On paper the SB tweeter is better, requires less EQ, but is also somewhat analytical sounding; and the Radian coax has a super great radiation pattern. 15" + separate waveguide tweeter has minor lobing issues around the 1500Hz xover.
The tweeters in #2 and #3 are significantly better than the Audax. (I prefer a very detailed high end. The Audax is very laid back, very "soft dome." Some people may prefer that.)
The SB TN29BNWG is an insanely good tweeter. Better than the aluminum version of the Radian 5208.
Beryllium 5208 is a tossup vs the TN29BNWG.
Reason why: On paper the SB tweeter is better, requires less EQ, but is also somewhat analytical sounding; and the Radian coax has a super great radiation pattern. 15" + separate waveguide tweeter has minor lobing issues around the 1500Hz xover.