Hi Steve.
Looking through your pages shows you are not short of a few pieces of high end kit yourself. Nice stuff! I see there is an ICE power in there... That looks like it was a DIY job. It looks neat.....
The Supratek Grange might, visually, be a bit of an aquired taste but it ooozes a certain quality. $9000US....
If this is the Lyra you are referring to then I can't deny that £12500GB seems a bit stratospheric. However it does look like a bit of thought has gone into the design and build, it looks like quality.
I wonder what the relative US price might be. It is not unusual for this sort of kit to be sold ignoring exchange rates such that $1US=£1GB.
The Linn 500 solo comes in at $9500 for a 500W monoblock. That one has been mentioned elsewhere.
And you are comparing these items to the NuForce 9. If I pick the 9SE as 'The Flagship' model then the closest I can cobble together for a list price is $1950. (base + upgrade).
It's a strange market regarding price/performance and quality but this is like comparing a nectarine to a prune stone. Nuforce might not have the resources of the companies you are comparing their product to, it shows.
However 'talking' the product up isn't really a substitute for trying a bit harder. Like I say, nice ICE power.
Cheers
DNA
Looking through your pages shows you are not short of a few pieces of high end kit yourself. Nice stuff! I see there is an ICE power in there... That looks like it was a DIY job. It looks neat.....
The Supratek Grange might, visually, be a bit of an aquired taste but it ooozes a certain quality. $9000US....
If this is the Lyra you are referring to then I can't deny that £12500GB seems a bit stratospheric. However it does look like a bit of thought has gone into the design and build, it looks like quality.
I wonder what the relative US price might be. It is not unusual for this sort of kit to be sold ignoring exchange rates such that $1US=£1GB.
The Linn 500 solo comes in at $9500 for a 500W monoblock. That one has been mentioned elsewhere.
And you are comparing these items to the NuForce 9. If I pick the 9SE as 'The Flagship' model then the closest I can cobble together for a list price is $1950. (base + upgrade).
It's a strange market regarding price/performance and quality but this is like comparing a nectarine to a prune stone. Nuforce might not have the resources of the companies you are comparing their product to, it shows.
However 'talking' the product up isn't really a substitute for trying a bit harder. Like I say, nice ICE power.
Cheers
DNA
Chris: Some good points made there and although I'm not privy to the situation of Nuforce pushing its products on this site, I can appreciate how some of you would be peaved by people spruiking certain technical claims without fully justifying them (a la Nuforce) - I guess they bit off more than they can chew!
And no, I am not employed by Nuforce, just a rabid end user of good audio products and trying to give them the benefit of the doubt.
DNA: The ICE amp shown in my system was constructed by a Pro audio engineer, nothing fancy, just a straight out implementation of a B&O recommended power supply for the 500W ICE module ...sounds very good and didn't cost too much.
As to the pricing of things, there's an old adage in the commercial world, which is, Question: " How do you establish the cost of a given product?" Answer: " The cost is what people are willing to pay for it". Have you ever wondered why jewellery and a Van Gogh painting fetch such high prices, afterall they are only shiny rocks, canvas and paint?? In the case of Linn; Krell; Wilson and Avalon speakers et al they are able to ask ANY price so long as they maintain the 'myth' of their hi-end reputation.
This is the beauty of DIYing, the bubble of the hi-end product is burst open and the world is our oyster. Its the biggest bang for our hard earned bucks and the knowledge gained along the way is good fun!
Regards,
Steve M.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vevol&1146370182&read&3&4&
And no, I am not employed by Nuforce, just a rabid end user of good audio products and trying to give them the benefit of the doubt.
DNA: The ICE amp shown in my system was constructed by a Pro audio engineer, nothing fancy, just a straight out implementation of a B&O recommended power supply for the 500W ICE module ...sounds very good and didn't cost too much.
As to the pricing of things, there's an old adage in the commercial world, which is, Question: " How do you establish the cost of a given product?" Answer: " The cost is what people are willing to pay for it". Have you ever wondered why jewellery and a Van Gogh painting fetch such high prices, afterall they are only shiny rocks, canvas and paint?? In the case of Linn; Krell; Wilson and Avalon speakers et al they are able to ask ANY price so long as they maintain the 'myth' of their hi-end reputation.
This is the beauty of DIYing, the bubble of the hi-end product is burst open and the world is our oyster. Its the biggest bang for our hard earned bucks and the knowledge gained along the way is good fun!
Regards,
Steve M.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vevol&1146370182&read&3&4&
"2. Yes, other manufacturers may not suffer the same niggling little reliability issues but then they are not presenting a new and evolving technology invented from the ground up.
3. NuForce is most efficient at dealing with and resolving matters as they arise.
Could these 6 moon guys be any more ignorant. These issues arise once delivered from the customer, rather than ahead of time already this constitues falure, secondly their method of missapplying mere bandaides to less than worthy of a quality high end product that such reviews purport it to be.
With continued hopes Nuforce has learnt a few things since the Re9 I'd imagine and both expect the Ref10 to be a more sound implementation from the very ground up, and maybe with some originality, but if not they can still obviously count on these types of less than informed reviews. A good indicator might be if they send sander a sample willingly. Odds are you know he's going to get a copy regardless.
I'd recommend unless a particular individual holds a firm grasp of at least the the basics of class d technology, they refrain from attempting reviewing them.
Regards,
Chris
3. NuForce is most efficient at dealing with and resolving matters as they arise.
Could these 6 moon guys be any more ignorant. These issues arise once delivered from the customer, rather than ahead of time already this constitues falure, secondly their method of missapplying mere bandaides to less than worthy of a quality high end product that such reviews purport it to be.
With continued hopes Nuforce has learnt a few things since the Re9 I'd imagine and both expect the Ref10 to be a more sound implementation from the very ground up, and maybe with some originality, but if not they can still obviously count on these types of less than informed reviews. A good indicator might be if they send sander a sample willingly. Odds are you know he's going to get a copy regardless.
I'd recommend unless a particular individual holds a firm grasp of at least the the basics of class d technology, they refrain from attempting reviewing them.
Regards,
Chris
Genomerics said:
Job done then...... 🙄
Unless they get a bigger box then the 'Evolution' must be over.
DNA
Hang on..... if I read the excuses given by NuForce in the review then it goes something like.
'After 25 test launches..... The missile failed to
1) Launch from the ship.
2) Ignite its solid rocket boosters.
3) Start its jet engine.
4) Extend its wings after the boost phase.
5) Begin to fly in the right direction.
6) Fly above the sea.
7) There is no seven
Because we messed things up.... AGAIN'.
DNA
'After 25 test launches..... The missile failed to
1) Launch from the ship.
2) Ignite its solid rocket boosters.
3) Start its jet engine.
4) Extend its wings after the boost phase.
5) Begin to fly in the right direction.
6) Fly above the sea.
7) There is no seven
Because we messed things up.... AGAIN'.
DNA
oooooohhhhh......
youu reaally think that?
A more likely scenario is the power converter became faulty at load dumping after first ignition causing an error in the dacs used for target tracking,,,, another case of friendly fire.
youu reaally think that?
A more likely scenario is the power converter became faulty at load dumping after first ignition causing an error in the dacs used for target tracking,,,, another case of friendly fire.
I wonder what the policy for people who had their 9's upgraded to 9SE's before the problem was spotted is?
Perhaps they will have to move the people sticking 'NuForce' stickers all over the product into the 'Goods Returned' department to help sort things out.
I guess it went something like......
'I know...... let's stick a sh*tload of capacitors on that power supply we know nothing about.'
'Great!!!! Then we can say there are lots and talk about low ESR and a punchy bass.'
'Yeah!'.
'I've got a job lot of black plastic things we can dangle off this place and power the electronics with.'
'Fantastic!..... look, they are just the right size to fit a NuForce sticker on as well.'
'Brilliant, I just stuck one on this part and it fits, what is it?'
'Don't know, anywhere else we can put some stickers?'
'Hmmmmm, no, I can't see anywhere else.'
'Ahhhh, OK I suppose we could go play some golf.'
DNA
Perhaps they will have to move the people sticking 'NuForce' stickers all over the product into the 'Goods Returned' department to help sort things out.
I guess it went something like......
'I know...... let's stick a sh*tload of capacitors on that power supply we know nothing about.'
'Great!!!! Then we can say there are lots and talk about low ESR and a punchy bass.'
'Yeah!'.
'I've got a job lot of black plastic things we can dangle off this place and power the electronics with.'
'Fantastic!..... look, they are just the right size to fit a NuForce sticker on as well.'
'Brilliant, I just stuck one on this part and it fits, what is it?'
'Don't know, anywhere else we can put some stickers?'
'Hmmmmm, no, I can't see anywhere else.'
'Ahhhh, OK I suppose we could go play some golf.'
DNA
serengetiplains said:
So they slap in a huge ultralow ESR cap bank (fashionable??) and the shitty thing actually stops working. Thank you consumer, for beta testing versions 8 through 9 SE! More disfunctional, but 'dirtcheap highend' coming to your doorstep next year.
Eventually, they'll get it right. My bets are on v14, the non-special-edition one, which by that time will be $3500,- Watch out for the SE version though, you never know what they're going to put into that one. Thank god they don't build cars.
Let's rename this design:
NoForce 9 SE
The main supply was probably designed with a 'soft start' section that allowed it to come into regulation within a given time.
Having added all the extra capacitors that time was over long before the output voltage had reached the proper level.
At that point the supply rockets off into current limit and charges up the output as fast as it can.
When the output voltage gets to the right value the supply has to recover and while it does that you get an overvoltage on the output...... whoops.
I wouldn't be surprised if it cycled through that sequence a few times before things settled down.
I'd be even less surprised if there was not some form overvoltage crowbar on the output to protect things.
Either that caused NuForce too much stress so they ripped it out or.......
Better still it probably sh@t itself on the first event when it tried to discharge all that lovely extra capacitance....
Having solved the problem through self sacrifice the unit trundled out of the door to a customer.
DNA
Having added all the extra capacitors that time was over long before the output voltage had reached the proper level.
At that point the supply rockets off into current limit and charges up the output as fast as it can.
When the output voltage gets to the right value the supply has to recover and while it does that you get an overvoltage on the output...... whoops.
I wouldn't be surprised if it cycled through that sequence a few times before things settled down.
I'd be even less surprised if there was not some form overvoltage crowbar on the output to protect things.
Either that caused NuForce too much stress so they ripped it out or.......
Better still it probably sh@t itself on the first event when it tried to discharge all that lovely extra capacitance....
Having solved the problem through self sacrifice the unit trundled out of the door to a customer.
DNA
The following paragraphs were extracted from the 6 mo(r)ons review:
"Cables: Harmonic Technology Magic Digital; Harmonic Technology Magic and Truthlink Silver; DanA Digital Reference Silver; Eichmann eXpress 6 Series 2; PSC Audio Pristine R30 Ribbon [on loan]; Harmonic Technology PRO-9+ loudspeaker cables; Harmonic Technology Fantasy AC; Shunyata Research Diamondback power cords, Eichmann eXpress AC power cable; PSC Gold Power MKII AC cable [on loan]"
And:
"Sundry accessories: Bright Star Audio IsoRock Reference 3, Bright Star Audio IsoRock 4 isolation platforms and BSA IsoNode feet; Bocchino Audio Mecado isolation diodes; Black Diamond Racing cones; Stillpoints ERS paper in strategic positions around DAC, Shakti On Lines; Densen CD demagnetizer; Auric Illuminator CD Treatment; ASC Tube Traps"
Well... I think that nu-force products will fit quite well in that list. Fools always tend to get well with fools.
"Cables: Harmonic Technology Magic Digital; Harmonic Technology Magic and Truthlink Silver; DanA Digital Reference Silver; Eichmann eXpress 6 Series 2; PSC Audio Pristine R30 Ribbon [on loan]; Harmonic Technology PRO-9+ loudspeaker cables; Harmonic Technology Fantasy AC; Shunyata Research Diamondback power cords, Eichmann eXpress AC power cable; PSC Gold Power MKII AC cable [on loan]"
And:
"Sundry accessories: Bright Star Audio IsoRock Reference 3, Bright Star Audio IsoRock 4 isolation platforms and BSA IsoNode feet; Bocchino Audio Mecado isolation diodes; Black Diamond Racing cones; Stillpoints ERS paper in strategic positions around DAC, Shakti On Lines; Densen CD demagnetizer; Auric Illuminator CD Treatment; ASC Tube Traps"
Well... I think that nu-force products will fit quite well in that list. Fools always tend to get well with fools.
Eva said:
wow.... it's nice to know if something were to happen to me the tradition will carry on 🙂 I couldn't help thinking the same exact thing when i saw all that. Clearly demonstrates their fanbase is in the suckers who'd buy into anything without regard to knowing any better, and we've nuberous demonstration where they're programmed by reviewers know not any better themselves. Perhaps it's up for another award to be posted to every forum possible.
Nuforce, your ref 10 which I trust should to be out soon ... well it's time for the real deal.
I wonder if that original "soft start" would have even kicked in during heavy loading, then again that may have been useful for when their output stage blew too, at least i hope it was.
Cheers,
Chris
Eva said:
I'm not so much impressed by Nu-force too. If your product will have really better specs and outperform Nuforse, it's will much impressive without rough words even. Let's wait?
I'm sorry but that's another prime example of the fact that NuForce engineers his new products by trial and error rather than by taking the high road and calculate/simulate things prior to stuffing them in a box and selling them as the next best thing.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
SSassen said:
worse yet, without measuring them and verifying theoretical with real worth to optimize it, also having igored real world non simulatable particularities as though they simply weren't aware of them, the revised version again failing to demonstrate a lack of understanding.
One last chance to get it right I say,,, and it better be right by a long shot. Don't be shy to ask for help.
It's all about marketing guys!
But I wonder what freebies are added in the "review package" to get these results, I tell you!
Maybe Hypex should hire the Nuforce PR guy - with that combination *every* amp on the planet will be boasting UcD by the year 2010!
But I wonder what freebies are added in the "review package" to get these results, I tell you!
Maybe Hypex should hire the Nuforce PR guy - with that combination *every* amp on the planet will be boasting UcD by the year 2010!
By the way...
Ultra-low ESR banks shorting out at startup, power supplies' voltage lower than expected...
Sounds like those cheapo computer cases I had to build PC's with at my first job, back in the '90s... they spiked to 80V on the 12V rail at turn off, blowing up each PC we built *after* you installed dos/win on it...
How can a thing built with such wildly varying specs sound good at all??
I'm no engineer at all, but after reading 50 posts with basics here I know exactly what voltage to expect from a PS and a transformer, and I know what size it has to be - and that's just reading & googling!
Someone please send a pair of UcD700s to 6moons, let them see the light...
Ultra-low ESR banks shorting out at startup, power supplies' voltage lower than expected...
Sounds like those cheapo computer cases I had to build PC's with at my first job, back in the '90s... they spiked to 80V on the 12V rail at turn off, blowing up each PC we built *after* you installed dos/win on it...
How can a thing built with such wildly varying specs sound good at all??
I'm no engineer at all, but after reading 50 posts with basics here I know exactly what voltage to expect from a PS and a transformer, and I know what size it has to be - and that's just reading & googling!
Someone please send a pair of UcD700s to 6moons, let them see the light...
Yves Smolders said:
I think Yves nailed it. Lets do some effort to make this thread be worthwhile to read.
/Hugo
Yves Smolders said:Maybe Hypex should hire the Nuforce PR guy - with that combination *every* amp on the planet will be boasting UcD by the year 2010!
Funny you mentioned that. Hypex is IMHO one of those rare companies that manufacture and sell products that sell themselves by its own quality without a need of bold marketing blah blah ….
Cheers 😉
Getting back on topic, I've given the pictures in the 6moons review a good hard look and it seems they did some work on the front-end of the amplifier as well. Although I still don't like the fact that they put that many capacitors in the signal path they seem to at least have done some modifications to the PCB. In my case the Ref 9.02's actual amplifier module was identical to that of the Ref 8.0, just a few parts and values changed.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
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