Genomerics:
Do you really think that somebody with "a long history of high precision control and power systems designs for aerospace" could produce such a clumsy laid out amplifier? There are plenty of 20 year old students that would do it better.
Furthermore, do you really think that "the chief engineer of the Tomahawk cruise missile power system", "Because of his background in power conversion topologies and his love of audio", would use a bare off-the-shelf power supply in his beloved master-piece state-of-the-art amplifier?
Don't make us laugh. That's like somebody claiming to be a master chef while ordering pizza and burgers all the time.
Also, how much people here is involved into swithcing elefctronics development in order to tell if a board is laid out properly or not?
p.s. Text quoted from http://www.nuforce.com/us.htm
Do you really think that somebody with "a long history of high precision control and power systems designs for aerospace" could produce such a clumsy laid out amplifier? There are plenty of 20 year old students that would do it better.
Furthermore, do you really think that "the chief engineer of the Tomahawk cruise missile power system", "Because of his background in power conversion topologies and his love of audio", would use a bare off-the-shelf power supply in his beloved master-piece state-of-the-art amplifier?
Don't make us laugh. That's like somebody claiming to be a master chef while ordering pizza and burgers all the time.
Also, how much people here is involved into swithcing elefctronics development in order to tell if a board is laid out properly or not?
p.s. Text quoted from http://www.nuforce.com/us.htm
Chris,
You're just too funny! Who is the victim reviews, sales pitches and marketing here? I'm glad you have gurus like Sander to take you by the hand and shepherd you through the valley of specifications that matter so much to your peace of mind. God forbid you buy a product only because it sounds good! However specifications and other peoples opinions aside, there are some confident in their own ability to judge what they like and dislike. Merely having two ears and the ability to hear is all it takes. That's it and that's all. That may seem like blasphemy to you, but it really happens every day. And those who do it will tell you anyone who needs to know the specs or whether somebody else liked it or not, would be better off with different hobby.
J
You're just too funny! Who is the victim reviews, sales pitches and marketing here? I'm glad you have gurus like Sander to take you by the hand and shepherd you through the valley of specifications that matter so much to your peace of mind. God forbid you buy a product only because it sounds good! However specifications and other peoples opinions aside, there are some confident in their own ability to judge what they like and dislike. Merely having two ears and the ability to hear is all it takes. That's it and that's all. That may seem like blasphemy to you, but it really happens every day. And those who do it will tell you anyone who needs to know the specs or whether somebody else liked it or not, would be better off with different hobby.
J
Well, then anybody "Merely having two ears and the ability to hear" should be capable of developing great audio equipment by trial and error.
I think there are 45 million of such people in my country... How many are there in yours?
I think there are 45 million of such people in my country... How many are there in yours?
I think the point he's making is more toward the direction of try developing audio gear without ears.
When all is said and done I'd rather trust someone who's native language is not English who makes sense than some Idiot trying to force the sort of purile rubbish I have heard for too long down my throat.....
Unfortunately......
Anyway, too much of the bottle myself.
I need to go and cuddle my bed.
I don't understand.... are you Europeans settling down for the night before the weekend whilst the Canadians just had their lunch break.... and are looking forward to it.
Time to practice snoring.
DNA
Unfortunately......
Anyway, too much of the bottle myself.
I need to go and cuddle my bed.
I don't understand.... are you Europeans settling down for the night before the weekend whilst the Canadians just had their lunch break.... and are looking forward to it.
Time to practice snoring.
DNA
My point has nothing to do with developing audio gear, but from a consumer’s perspective, what are the ABC’s of a making a decision to purchase. Serengetiplains makes another important point.
JohnnyBoy said:
Personally, I think you can design without ears, just as Beethoven could compose without. That I think is the explanation why a 40-yr-old amp sounds just as good as one made today. Different solutions (tubes, transformers, etc.) to the same basic problems are what makes the difference. Meaning I'm an objectivist.
But I judge Beethoven with my ears just as I do audio gear. Meaning I'm a subjectivists.
As I stated in another thread, sound reproduction is a contradiction. Hence, contradiction is a condition of life.
But I judge Beethoven with my ears just as I do audio gear. Meaning I'm a subjectivists.
As I stated in another thread, sound reproduction is a contradiction. Hence, contradiction is a condition of life.
phn said:
To be indifferent in the face of progress is to slap your mother, as is does the butterfly, in the mud of time, cry, so free, hear him.
Hearing is subject to strong pacebo effects and environmental influences, so it's not a perfect criteria for selecting the right product to buy either.
We get easily fooled by marketing, reviews and fancy looks. Objectively speaking, our hearing is ridiculosuly inferior in comparison with many other species, but our brain is much more complex and it always does its best to try to fill the enourmous gaps left in the raw information provided by those very low-quality transducers also known as "human ears". As a result, part of what we believe to hear does not actually correspond to true acoustic stimulus, but to artifacts created by our brain, while lots of other real acoustic stimulus are just missed.
There are very simple experiments that demonstrate the extensive sound post-processing carried out by our brain. For example, there are huge amounts of reverberation inside our typical rooms in our homes, but we can only hear a very small portion of it as our brain does a great job nulling the rest. To fully hear that reverberation you have to record the ambient sound with an omnidirectional microphone in mono, and then listen to it with headpones. The result will sound quite different to what we believed to be hearing during the recording. Don't blame the poor microphone, it just picked up the sound 'as is' while our ears and our brain didn't. Not to mention that reverberation blurs all sound details in an unrecoverable way, with most of us hardly noticing about that.
I wish we had a switch to allow us to disable brain sound post-processing from time to time.
We get easily fooled by marketing, reviews and fancy looks. Objectively speaking, our hearing is ridiculosuly inferior in comparison with many other species, but our brain is much more complex and it always does its best to try to fill the enourmous gaps left in the raw information provided by those very low-quality transducers also known as "human ears". As a result, part of what we believe to hear does not actually correspond to true acoustic stimulus, but to artifacts created by our brain, while lots of other real acoustic stimulus are just missed.
There are very simple experiments that demonstrate the extensive sound post-processing carried out by our brain. For example, there are huge amounts of reverberation inside our typical rooms in our homes, but we can only hear a very small portion of it as our brain does a great job nulling the rest. To fully hear that reverberation you have to record the ambient sound with an omnidirectional microphone in mono, and then listen to it with headpones. The result will sound quite different to what we believed to be hearing during the recording. Don't blame the poor microphone, it just picked up the sound 'as is' while our ears and our brain didn't. Not to mention that reverberation blurs all sound details in an unrecoverable way, with most of us hardly noticing about that.
I wish we had a switch to allow us to disable brain sound post-processing from time to time.
phn said:
You can take just about any hi-fi class-d amp today and make it sound like a 40 year old tube amp by adding distortion, compression, and peaks and valleys in the response. 🙂
I can listen to some music on a 8-track playing through an amp that adding extras like distortion, compression, peaks ...and still enjoy it. My ears are easily fooled by my mood.
I need specs, good specs, for a transparent amp. And I can add the extras to the music to suit my mood.
But CD's are hi-fi to me - so what do I know? 😀
JohnnyBoy said:
I recommend thinking for yourself and using every possible tool available to help you decide, you react as though it would be too painful an exercise.
I don't care who does what everyday and what those who do say or would tell me, or you. I use more tools to take in, learn, and reason than either your eyes or nugget will obviously allow you to see or even believe. I don't need my hand held like it would seem you have often had the pleasure of, most likely each and every time your credit card or check book was in it.
You're so programmed you're blinded, you sicken me. Keep laughing, though, it'll help you feel good about yourself, and the junk you get conned into paying way too much for. You're the salesmen's dream, and the world does revolve around you.
JohnnyBoy said:
I think your only point rests under your hat. From a "typical consumer's" perspective, such as, yourself perhaps, so void of reason, the ABC's are whatever you're told. Then you go spouting off about them to everyone you know to help yourself feel better about a bad purchase.
For a slightly more open minded consumer (not void, rather, free thinking), they will use every possible tool available to them to help them reason a proper decision, and view everything objectively, trying to see everything possible before making a final decision.
The ears are just a small piece of a whole pie, and sometimes, I know, you'll think this is blasphemy, but sometimes, they aren't even a part of the decision making process _at all_.
I know, EMU thinks you're such a nice guy that they'd send you a demo sound card for a month.. Johnny, boy, wake the hell up.
BTW, is your nukeforce still on order, or is it in for repair 😀
Something I'd like to bring up:
After listening to some stuff in a pro-audio store, the speakers I liked the best were maybe 4-500$. They were used and rebuilt speakers from the 80's from a moderately obscure brand, but they sounded good.
Last week, I stopped at Band and Olufsen, and listened to their 5,000$ stereo system. It sucked. Really, really sucked. It was'nt bad, but I would'nt have paid more than 200$ per for those things.
Moral?
Plain old common sense wins out over flashy designs.
That said, Class-D amps are'nt necessarily all flash; they sound danged good if built right.
After listening to some stuff in a pro-audio store, the speakers I liked the best were maybe 4-500$. They were used and rebuilt speakers from the 80's from a moderately obscure brand, but they sounded good.
Last week, I stopped at Band and Olufsen, and listened to their 5,000$ stereo system. It sucked. Really, really sucked. It was'nt bad, but I would'nt have paid more than 200$ per for those things.
Moral?
Plain old common sense wins out over flashy designs.
That said, Class-D amps are'nt necessarily all flash; they sound danged good if built right.
serengetiplains said:
Not always, in some cases measurements are too poor to be shown, and in the case of ICEpower, they're nothing impressive at all.
The king of belittlement strikes again!
Chris,
Cannot help yourself...talking about robotic behavior...wow! you have so many buttons....all someone has to say is "damping or secret or listening is king or whatever" and you go off on a tantrum. We hold great power over you....you cannot, not reply, attack and defend yourself and have the last word...very robotic, unconscious behavour.
Speaking of open mindedness, you have done more to drive it away then anyone else here. So, you are very powerful....in a dark sort of way. I have received 3 emails from people who say they will never post here again because of your attitude.
People of the forum,
Is this what you want? A tyrant driving away open minded thought with his attacks? If so, let him have his way...he is a great man, but his power of Love is being diminished by his power of righteousness.
Chris,
I have now pressed your button, now you HAVE to respond and have the last word....I feel so powerful....so much fun!
Chris,
Cannot help yourself...talking about robotic behavior...wow! you have so many buttons....all someone has to say is "damping or secret or listening is king or whatever" and you go off on a tantrum. We hold great power over you....you cannot, not reply, attack and defend yourself and have the last word...very robotic, unconscious behavour.
Speaking of open mindedness, you have done more to drive it away then anyone else here. So, you are very powerful....in a dark sort of way. I have received 3 emails from people who say they will never post here again because of your attitude.
People of the forum,
Is this what you want? A tyrant driving away open minded thought with his attacks? If so, let him have his way...he is a great man, but his power of Love is being diminished by his power of righteousness.
Chris,
I have now pressed your button, now you HAVE to respond and have the last word....I feel so powerful....so much fun!
serengetiplains said:
No, I mean to say that, when connected to a decent speaker and CD player, it's fun to listen to Los Amigos Invisibles on them. They sound good, and don't give me a headache. I have'nt seen too many, but they work fine for me.
And is'nt that why we listen to music in the first place? To have fun?
Oh look. Another "interesting" objective/subjective discussion. Guys, we all know that these debates go nowhere, so could we get back to discussion of the amp please.
Pinkmouse,
If you allow me I'd like to just make a few comments regarding why this thread has somewhat spun out of control. It isn't simply because opinions clash, it is the simple fact that there are a lot of people (the majority) that enjoy audio, but haven't got the faintest clue about the inner workings of the devices they listen to, hence they judge these devices by how they sound.
Then there's another group of people (far smaller) that have a firmer grasp of what makes these devices tick, some may be engineers, or selfthaught enthusiasts. They can judge these devices on more than just how they sound, as technical competence of the designer can be judged from how well the device is built and how this relates to performance, both in terms of measurements and how they 'sound'.
Lacking these skills the majority sticks to what they can trust, their own ears, and disregard all else, simply because they can't put it into context, or fail to grasp the meaning of these technical details. The only way to fight this is to educate the masses. As unfortunately there's no voodoo or magic involved. All of these devices are governed by the laws of math and physics and with a good understanding of those comes a firmer grasp of what makes these devices tick and the ability to judge them on their merits.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
If you allow me I'd like to just make a few comments regarding why this thread has somewhat spun out of control. It isn't simply because opinions clash, it is the simple fact that there are a lot of people (the majority) that enjoy audio, but haven't got the faintest clue about the inner workings of the devices they listen to, hence they judge these devices by how they sound.
Then there's another group of people (far smaller) that have a firmer grasp of what makes these devices tick, some may be engineers, or selfthaught enthusiasts. They can judge these devices on more than just how they sound, as technical competence of the designer can be judged from how well the device is built and how this relates to performance, both in terms of measurements and how they 'sound'.
Lacking these skills the majority sticks to what they can trust, their own ears, and disregard all else, simply because they can't put it into context, or fail to grasp the meaning of these technical details. The only way to fight this is to educate the masses. As unfortunately there's no voodoo or magic involved. All of these devices are governed by the laws of math and physics and with a good understanding of those comes a firmer grasp of what makes these devices tick and the ability to judge them on their merits.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
Unfortunately Sander, much as we would love it if diyAudio had the influence to change the world, it doesn't. All we can do is try to politely educate. Harrassment doesn't work.
I believe Sander has mentioned an alternative which he deliberately left out of the review for good reasons: the UcD. But still, I fail to see how not mentioning alternatives has anything to do with credibility at all.phn said:
No, I didn't "warn you". That's called humor. Never mind...
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