It's hard to educate ppl when they have golden ears but at the same time seem to be rather deaf to reasoning.pinkmouse said:
Sorry if I got carried away in the 'discussion'...
Let me share with you the tale of a purchase I made just a few weeks ago. I'm in the process of designing a new DAC, and because it is virtually impossible to try out every DAC IC there is in a testbed (I did that with a number of them though) I resorted to listening to CD-players or DACs equipped with a DAC IC of interest. One DAC IC however remained elusive, the PCM1704, it is used only in top-of-the-line DACs and CD-players and I could not find anyone that had one I could listen to.
However in a different thread on a different forum (Audiocircle) lots of people seem to have fallen in love with the Lite DAC-60. A Chinese DAC that uses twin PCM1704s and a SRPP tube output stage. Their reports of how it sounds are unanimous, this is a DAC that's in a class of its own. I then started to investigate further and could not find a local dealer or anyone that bought one, as they're only available from China. Hence I took the plunge and paid a total of $400 including shipping and had one delivered to my house.
When it arrived it looked the biz, nice 1.5-mm steel chassis, 10-mm front plate, excellent connectors etc. It sounded quite nice too and I listened to it for about a week and then decided it was time to take a look inside. That's were it quickly became apparant that the designer of this particular DAC has a thing or two to learn about tubes and digital audio. The tubes were biased into their most NON-linear part of the curve, the output filter stage uses a LCL configuration which attenuates HF spiking rather than supresses it, the PCB is layed out all wrong with seperate ground plane's per section, the SPDIF doesn't reclock, it is simply free running, etc. etc.
Obviously it couldn't be left that way. Hence I then set to work starting with taking a good hard look at all the datasheets of the ICs used in the DAC and making sure all requirements were met. I proceeded with biasing the tubes in their most linear range and reworked the output filter to fit the DAC requirements and the natural roll-off of the SRPP tube output stage. I implemented a low jitter clock and made sure the groundplanes were all connected again. Obviously I also replaced all the capacitors from the no-name Chinese brand to Panasonic FC and Sanyo OSCON around the DAC ICs.
I ended up with a DAC which is among the most musical I've ever heard, it is indistinquishable from the original DAC-60 as it has soo much more detail, a much wider and deeper stereo image etc. etc. All that I invested was about $60 in parts and a few days of labor by going over all the datasheets, calculating the requirements and of course replacing the components.
This just shows that when you abandon good engineering you also abandon your chances of getting a properly functioning device. I'm sure that given enough time (!) you'd be able to work it into something that performs equally well by trail and error, but luckily we have tools such as measurement equipment and math/physics so we do not have to go down that route.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
However in a different thread on a different forum (Audiocircle) lots of people seem to have fallen in love with the Lite DAC-60. A Chinese DAC that uses twin PCM1704s and a SRPP tube output stage. Their reports of how it sounds are unanimous, this is a DAC that's in a class of its own. I then started to investigate further and could not find a local dealer or anyone that bought one, as they're only available from China. Hence I took the plunge and paid a total of $400 including shipping and had one delivered to my house.
When it arrived it looked the biz, nice 1.5-mm steel chassis, 10-mm front plate, excellent connectors etc. It sounded quite nice too and I listened to it for about a week and then decided it was time to take a look inside. That's were it quickly became apparant that the designer of this particular DAC has a thing or two to learn about tubes and digital audio. The tubes were biased into their most NON-linear part of the curve, the output filter stage uses a LCL configuration which attenuates HF spiking rather than supresses it, the PCB is layed out all wrong with seperate ground plane's per section, the SPDIF doesn't reclock, it is simply free running, etc. etc.
Obviously it couldn't be left that way. Hence I then set to work starting with taking a good hard look at all the datasheets of the ICs used in the DAC and making sure all requirements were met. I proceeded with biasing the tubes in their most linear range and reworked the output filter to fit the DAC requirements and the natural roll-off of the SRPP tube output stage. I implemented a low jitter clock and made sure the groundplanes were all connected again. Obviously I also replaced all the capacitors from the no-name Chinese brand to Panasonic FC and Sanyo OSCON around the DAC ICs.
I ended up with a DAC which is among the most musical I've ever heard, it is indistinquishable from the original DAC-60 as it has soo much more detail, a much wider and deeper stereo image etc. etc. All that I invested was about $60 in parts and a few days of labor by going over all the datasheets, calculating the requirements and of course replacing the components.
This just shows that when you abandon good engineering you also abandon your chances of getting a properly functioning device. I'm sure that given enough time (!) you'd be able to work it into something that performs equally well by trail and error, but luckily we have tools such as measurement equipment and math/physics so we do not have to go down that route.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
SSassen said:
Hm, isn't it strange you had to pay for it before you got to audition? When does that ever happen. 🙄 You really ought to have listened first, I'd have made them hold up the phone while I sat in the sweet spot of my living room.
You should try some super damping Double Bubble inside the case. I hear cherry gives it a real sweet tone. Few jawbreakers can really give the bass some slam too.
The key is to keep trying and listening until you've convinced yourself it's done right and can take the credit for it.
Remember Aviator? "Show me all the blueprints... show me ALL the blueprints.... show ME all the bluePRINTS... show me all the BLUEprints.." wwwwhat a tweaker 😀
classd4sure said:
To be indifferent in the face of progress is to slap your mother, as is does the butterfly, in the mud of time, cry, so free, hear him.
Why would I want to know about somebody else's THD plots?😕
phn said:
When southern butterfly flaps wing from tree stump, northern butterfly fall from tree, dead, in fogged dawn, he cries no more, and yet, southern butterfly, feels no chill, while the grasshopper,
hears only the rooster crow, the bubble has popped, bringing forth new light.
raintalk said:
Some people say the tiny Sonic Impact outperforms some modern tube amps. I believe them. But my 40-yr-old does sound better than the T amp. I thus conclude that my 40-yr-old tube amp has to be if not better, at least as good as many new tube amp. My tube amp has a THD of 0.1 pct. That's not a bad figure when it comes to tubes.
I love the Sonic Impact T amp. As I wrote earlier, I would easily name it the Amp of the last Century, based on price-performance.
raintalk said:
And I think the PlayStation is hi-fi.
Phn,
In that case, why would you want to post here if you don't want to know about someone's THD plots? Go waste your time elsewhere, you have not contributed a single bit of useful information to this thread, all you do is post random remarks that have no sensible coherency or lead up to a point you're trying to get across.
I suggest you stay (far) away from this thread, you're not helping, you're just upping your post count.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
In that case, why would you want to post here if you don't want to know about someone's THD plots? Go waste your time elsewhere, you have not contributed a single bit of useful information to this thread, all you do is post random remarks that have no sensible coherency or lead up to a point you're trying to get across.
I suggest you stay (far) away from this thread, you're not helping, you're just upping your post count.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
Hans L said:
I think it has.
I'm not saying the NuForce is good or bad. I haven't heard it. My point is that it has some interesting things, like the damping. So you could, for example, award it on innovation. That would be a criterion. Sanders has the right to not like that criterion.
I couldn't care less about which amp gets named Amp of the Year. But if you dispute it you have to have something.
SSassen said:
So what you say is that you should not like what you think sounds good but that which has the best specs.
SSassen said:
As somebody with a college degree and, at least according to that, somebody with fairly good insight into systems design, I think I'm well versed in what makes things tick. As such I also know that most computer systems that fail, fail, not because of the technical aspects, byt because they failed to support the user.
That's the problem with you positivists. Whenever technology and man clash, the failure is man.
"Against that positivism which stops before phenomena, saying 'there are only facts,' I should say: no, it is precisely facts that do not exist, only interpretations." -- Nietzsche
SSassen said:
That made no sense at all. The THD plot of interest here is that of the NuForce. I have no interest in collecting other people's THD plots.
My point should be pretty clear. I have seen none here.
phn,
"What else is love but understanding and rejoicing in the fact that another person lives, acts, and experiences otherwise than we do…?"
Friedrich Nietzsche
😉
"What else is love but understanding and rejoicing in the fact that another person lives, acts, and experiences otherwise than we do…?"
Friedrich Nietzsche
😉
pinkmouse said:
Indeed. We should rejoice in all the things man can and do. And I probably went overboard last night being all tired.
People don't hold on to convictions because they are interested in the truth. People hold on to positions because they have interests to protect.
Phn,
You strike me as a very unbalanced individual, you keep quoting Nietsche, but fail to raise any valid arguments but for those that are either generally accepted, or have no relevance to the topic, hence all you do is litter this topic with your off-topic posts.
Nowhere have I stated that something that is designed well, or measures well, should also sound good, there's clearly a discrepancy between what I write and your comprehension of my posts. Since other members that participate in this thread seem to comprehend my posts as I intended them the problem clearly is you.
As mentioned by Pinkmouse, this is NOT an off-topic thread, hence not everything goes, your posts clearly are off-topic and hence you should respect the others in this thread that do want to keep things on-topic. I therefore suggest once more you stop posting in this thread, we do not welcome you off-topic comments, as they don't help to bring this discussion forward.
If you persist in posting here I'll simply withdraw myself from the discussion, which means you've singlehandedly deprived many others of the means of getting a better perspective on this particular class-D amplifier, or class-D amplifiers in general.
I'd say that makes you a pretty self-centered, arrogant, but above all stupid attention-***** that keeps repeating the same comments over and over again hoping we'll give in and agree with you, which is not going to happen.
So take my advice and leave, or lurk, so we can get back to discussing the specifics of the NuForce amplifier.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
You strike me as a very unbalanced individual, you keep quoting Nietsche, but fail to raise any valid arguments but for those that are either generally accepted, or have no relevance to the topic, hence all you do is litter this topic with your off-topic posts.
Nowhere have I stated that something that is designed well, or measures well, should also sound good, there's clearly a discrepancy between what I write and your comprehension of my posts. Since other members that participate in this thread seem to comprehend my posts as I intended them the problem clearly is you.
As mentioned by Pinkmouse, this is NOT an off-topic thread, hence not everything goes, your posts clearly are off-topic and hence you should respect the others in this thread that do want to keep things on-topic. I therefore suggest once more you stop posting in this thread, we do not welcome you off-topic comments, as they don't help to bring this discussion forward.
If you persist in posting here I'll simply withdraw myself from the discussion, which means you've singlehandedly deprived many others of the means of getting a better perspective on this particular class-D amplifier, or class-D amplifiers in general.
I'd say that makes you a pretty self-centered, arrogant, but above all stupid attention-***** that keeps repeating the same comments over and over again hoping we'll give in and agree with you, which is not going to happen.
So take my advice and leave, or lurk, so we can get back to discussing the specifics of the NuForce amplifier.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
classd4sure said:
An experienced electronic engineer can judge a schematic on it’s merits. But no further than proper craftsmanship or ……….. if it is a clever engineer, he can also see the charm of a creative designer. Creativity is what counts in electronics to get out the most of an apparatus, but ONLY with proper under laying craftsmanship.
Remember those “2 transistor radio’s” back in the sixties …. but the “8 transistor radio’s” where better ……… 😀
Pjotr said:
I can't say that I do recall them or even have a clue in their regard..
I sure do agree with you though. It's why I laugh at the rare instance when both halves of the puzzle have been realized so masterfully, some 25 year in the biz "pro", who's a late adopter of it after having tried all the other obvious crap out there like nuforce for instance, finally see's the dawn and bases his entire product line solely upon it, has the actual nerve to dismiss engineering outright at the very first question of his mystical preaching.
I had no problem at all simply questioning his reasoning and leaving it at that, just so people know enough that it's probably not the best way to do things, and there's better information to be found that'll actually empower them to DIY. I guess when you stand on such shaky ground though, you really have to resort to extreme tactics in order to cloud the real issues at hand.
It's also why I had to keep pointing out my intuition telling me koolkid was originally obviously bringing the nuforce marketing scheme over here and had to be working for them in the least.
Surprise surprise.
I wish more people made an effort to keep this forum clean of that kind of marketing **** and misinformation, before it's the death of it. Why don't you speak up when you see it? Maybe not enough of you realize what we have here, and what it will become if allowed. Too content to ask question after question and make no effort yourself, everything must be so magical, and there the piranah lies.
You keep on your soap box Rick, I'll be here for you.
Pjotr, sorry to have used your good post for my evil deeds... I've been able to say my piece now and am done with it.
Best regards,
Chris
I should apologise for being a bit rabid, but I won't. Well I will but I might misbehave again.
OK, I'm sorry...
As an 'engineer' what gets up my nose it the nature of the claims Nuforce makes and the way they make them. I don't like having that sort of empty headed marketing stuff rammed down my throat.
Especially when it is apparent from the product that it is just plain shoddy.
Even more so when the 'new improved' version just had a bit of sticky tape put on it.
$1200 pah!
I notice the SE version of the 9 just has an extra capacitor bank shoved in the remaining space in the box.
+$750 pah!
DIY yes...... Amatuers NO!!!
DNA
OK, I'm sorry...
As an 'engineer' what gets up my nose it the nature of the claims Nuforce makes and the way they make them. I don't like having that sort of empty headed marketing stuff rammed down my throat.
Especially when it is apparent from the product that it is just plain shoddy.
Even more so when the 'new improved' version just had a bit of sticky tape put on it.
$1200 pah!
I notice the SE version of the 9 just has an extra capacitor bank shoved in the remaining space in the box.
+$750 pah!
DIY yes...... Amatuers NO!!!
DNA
Its difficult for DIYers (myself included) to accept the cost of things, but the Nuforce is positively dirt cheap compared to a lot of other audiophile goodies out there. For example, in the latest copy of Hi-Fi+ magazine the Lyra Connoiseur preamplifier lists at 12,500 English Pounds, yet the photography of its internals would indicate that there is not much more than a few hundred dollars worth of parts! Another example is the Avalon Eidolon Diamond loudspeaker which sells for $100,000 here in Australia. This speaker would not have more than about $8,000 worth of parts??
I also owned a 1yr old Naim NAP250 power amp which retails for $6,500AUD, which IMO is a competent (but nothing special Class AB design) - it is easily bested in terms of clarity and separation by all the digital amps I've owned, including the little $24.95 Sonic Impact amps.
I guess my point is if you want to find fault in something, its easy to do so. The Nuforce may not fit everyone's idea of value and technical merit - but there's a lot worse examples out there!
For all intents and purposes the majority of end users reckon the Nuforce amps are pretty good (and VERY cheap), so I think that's all that matters.
Regards,
Steve M.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vevol&1146370182&read&3&4&
I also owned a 1yr old Naim NAP250 power amp which retails for $6,500AUD, which IMO is a competent (but nothing special Class AB design) - it is easily bested in terms of clarity and separation by all the digital amps I've owned, including the little $24.95 Sonic Impact amps.
I guess my point is if you want to find fault in something, its easy to do so. The Nuforce may not fit everyone's idea of value and technical merit - but there's a lot worse examples out there!
For all intents and purposes the majority of end users reckon the Nuforce amps are pretty good (and VERY cheap), so I think that's all that matters.
Regards,
Steve M.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vevol&1146370182&read&3&4&
Hi Steve,
That's one view.
The problem is allowing the kind of hype they've created about their own hardly competent product go unanswered, _especially after having tried it here incognito_. We turn to DIY because of our disgust of this kind of marketing in the first place, we're tired of these kinds of lies and of being cheated for our money for products which don't deliver as promised.
In truth, this amplifier is actually of the potential which can set class d back ten years, while manufacturers who truly do deserve such "awards", who created the wave that Nuforce has enjoyed surfing, go ignored.
Those who purchased it and are "content" even speak of the high RFI, in reality they ought to be ignorant of it, and they're trying to make the best of a bad situation, I think. Had they known better, had they been able to read unbiased, honest and informed reviews, they may have gone with a far superior product at comparable cost, something like CIAudio has, using the UCD modules. Don't forget either, Ref8's were upgraded to Ref9's because they were so poor they had to be.
If I were the sorry owner of a Ref8, turned Ref9, I'd probably be telling you it's the best amp I ever heard.. how much are you willing to offer me for it? Then I'd take your money and get something decent for myself. Not many would actually badmouth equipment they've paid for themselves, they'd only be costing themselves.
You say their product is cheap, so it's OK, I ask you, how much should pure crap cost?
Even I am starting to feel a little bad about the beating they're taking here over it all, but then I think, when you come here, to our haven, to poison us hyping garbage, you just asked for it.
No sense in trying to smooth it over, unless, well, I guess there's a chance you're employed by them. Are you?
That's one view.
The problem is allowing the kind of hype they've created about their own hardly competent product go unanswered, _especially after having tried it here incognito_. We turn to DIY because of our disgust of this kind of marketing in the first place, we're tired of these kinds of lies and of being cheated for our money for products which don't deliver as promised.
In truth, this amplifier is actually of the potential which can set class d back ten years, while manufacturers who truly do deserve such "awards", who created the wave that Nuforce has enjoyed surfing, go ignored.
Those who purchased it and are "content" even speak of the high RFI, in reality they ought to be ignorant of it, and they're trying to make the best of a bad situation, I think. Had they known better, had they been able to read unbiased, honest and informed reviews, they may have gone with a far superior product at comparable cost, something like CIAudio has, using the UCD modules. Don't forget either, Ref8's were upgraded to Ref9's because they were so poor they had to be.
If I were the sorry owner of a Ref8, turned Ref9, I'd probably be telling you it's the best amp I ever heard.. how much are you willing to offer me for it? Then I'd take your money and get something decent for myself. Not many would actually badmouth equipment they've paid for themselves, they'd only be costing themselves.
You say their product is cheap, so it's OK, I ask you, how much should pure crap cost?
Even I am starting to feel a little bad about the beating they're taking here over it all, but then I think, when you come here, to our haven, to poison us hyping garbage, you just asked for it.
No sense in trying to smooth it over, unless, well, I guess there's a chance you're employed by them. Are you?
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