Guys, if UcD is so hot, why didn't the CIA version take the review world by storm? I can think of at least two reasons.
serengetiplains said:
UcD is NOT hot, it's so Cooooooooooooool 😀 😀 😀 😛
But it’s not the UcD’s that are questioned here, so lets go back to the Ref 9’s.
😉
Oh! Oh! Wait! I know, I know!
Hypex doesn't include free amps for reviewers, and you get no free girls, no free champagne, no envelopes... would that be a reason?
😉
Hypex doesn't include free amps for reviewers, and you get no free girls, no free champagne, no envelopes... would that be a reason?
😉
serengetiplains said:
If distortion is the spice of audio, then the UcD is a fairly tastless meal, and tubes the sweetest candy you'l ever have.
what a crappy world it would be if two amps that measure the same, sounded the same.
-marius
demogorgon said:
Well, they did bring the modules a little ways from their stock format, but by no means does that imply they've managed to attain the absolute most of them.
I've pointed out what I thought of their build before but that wasn't very nice of me, but I still think a good portion of it is due to build quality.
Once again it's mass produced stuff and simply does not have the DIY touch of excellence.
Also their reviewed amp was only outputting half power, and the most the reviewer could say was a "little thin on the bass"....
Then you have the others who award the only class d amp they ever heard as amp of the year...... and why? I dont' think they mentioned.
Look at Hypex' latest review, of a very old amp to which the goal was to build it small. They in fact played with the toroidal dimensions and wound up with an amp so small you'd be easily mislead into thinking it had a SMPS in there. The satisfied reviewer can then say "well it's not any larger than the other class d amps I reviewed".... ??
It means nothing. Do your own research.
serengetiplains said:
All the reviews of the CIA amps I've seen have been absolute raves. Ric Schultz who was hotrodding Nuforce amps has now moved to UCD modules and claims they just sound better.
So all this points to the ucd being better. But until we have someone with no axe to grind do a listening test (ie not people like Classd4sure) we will not know.
Agisthos said:
There's just so much to point out why the UCD is superior in every aspect that it's a pity you'd resort to such non informed drivel to try and prove a point, let alone mentioning me in such poor regard while doing so, which btw, invites me to question your reasoning.
When we'd previously established you're simply a troll your argument was that we weren't qualified to judge a product poorly without having heard it first, certainly not one with soooooo many good reviews. Did you ever get your Nuforce? Now you have Sander's unbiased review to show you that you were wrong and we were in fact well positioned to judge it poorly without the requirement of hearing it, or even the want to.
You and your ilk seem to ignore the fact that this is DIY home and not a marketing forum where people care about reviews for anything other than comical purposes.
Here you are again, trying to drag Rick into this as though he's an authority. My guess is he built up some sort of reputation through reviews which you read throughout his "25 years of tweaking" and so that must mean something to you.
Ric's comments towards how the amps differ were more geared to its ease of use as I recall, basic differences which makes it easier for him to use.
Least we forget he first chose the Nuforce, and he failed with it because no amount of bloodletting will turn it into something it isn't.
ICEpower he tried as well. It was never designed as an audio amp, so you'd think that'd be a tweakers dream. Why did he fail with it? I'm guessing it's just beyond his ability.
The sad fact is UCD is robust enough that even Ric can succeed with it, it's so well engineered it can withstand some of his misapplied voodoo.
Were he actually an authority he'd have known enough from the very beginning to be all over the UCD, instead of resorting to it dead last. He'd also have been able to stand his ground and debate his points and "tweaks" intelligently instead of resorting to spastic "People of the forum" and peace and love BS.
I just hope your future "contributions" are researched facts and even better, experimentation. In the meantime, let Rick lick his wounds, he took a mean dive off a soapbox.
Regards,
Chris
Well, as with all things you can only tweak it if you have a firm understanding of its workings. I've seen it here, and in others forums as well, on numerous occasions where people just replace parts at random hoping (that's the key word here) that they'll get an improvement in sound quality. One of the reasons I've been all over UcD is that it doesn't need much, if any, tweaking; the pure simplicity and robustness of the design make it a great amplifier from the get-go. NuForce on the other hand won't get much better even if you spend a few hundred dollar on tweaks, simply because the design choices they made are not affected by these tweaks, they're inherent to the design.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
SSassen said:
Once again.... well said. You should be a writter or something
You can't fix inherent design flaws with bandaide like tweaks, and a huge aspect of the genius that went into the UCD was that most of those typical "class d" inherent flaws were addressed from the first time the pencil hit the paper. That's why I'm amused one would even attempt to sell "tweaked" Nuforce amps, can there be credibility after that?
I also agree it takes some understanding of the inner workings in order to be able to intelligently tweak or modify such a beast with expected, repeatable results, however lacking that, I suppose the next best option is to put lead paint around your door and hope the EMI passes you by, and a few reviews for good measure.
Cheers
classd4sure said:
People who have personality issues they refuse to face up to often have this in common - They tend to see others as a mirror unto themself, and project their own faults and defects onto others like hypocrites. It is almost like a subconcious cry for help.
Stop the personal stuff now. Any more comments like the ones above will lead to sinbin time. I'm watching.
SSassen said:
This is an easily testable claim. Allow me to use my own experience. I know very little about how switching electronics work, but upon a day I purchased a switching amp (a Tripath). I tried a few supplies on it and found a smps sounded better. Then I thought I'd add a bit of filtering to the supply rail ... CLC ... using high quality components. Wow, sounded better still. Then I added higher quality components (teflon capacitors) on the supply rail ... sounded better. Then I swapped the input capacitor for a teflon job (sounded better) then a fluorinert job of my own stumbling-in-the-dark design (sounded better).
Why do I assert these changes sounded "better" rather than merely "different"? Because I've been in this audio game for 25 years and can discern subtle changes and within these changes at least some degree of better from worse. Nobody need believe me on this point. My wife sure does, as she remarks spontaneously, now and again, that because of her experience with my stereo foibles she hears so much now as grating on the ear.
So, I have no firm understanding, just a bit of horse sense. Which is not to say a firm understanding wouldn't help, but which is to say I disagree with your claim.
I believe you....
When I was a student my first amplifier was a... can't remember the name but looking inside it it was a bolted together thing and very nice too.
I had one of those BSR record deck things and made a RIAA preamp for it with an LM... whatever. Borrowed some girls nail polish to make the PCB.
Being stupid I bought a 'second' Hitachi 3700 something from the local Lo-Fi shop and then ended up with a Rega Planar three with some Ackneeroyd speakers. Then I bought a new stylus thing.
Later on I met someone who was into this 'Hi-Fi' stuff and 'we' bought up the RS stock of polycraptonate capacitors and I got a few big electrolytics from some shop...
We had the house Farad.
Anyway, I went and ripped all the low level lytics out of the Hitachi and replaced them with the polycraptonates and then dangled a couple of BIG electros off flying leads to the power supply. And I cleaned the connector stuff.
Then I switched things on and played Waysted and was totally Fword Gobsmacked.
But I seem to have forgot the question.....
Cheers
DNA
When I was a student my first amplifier was a... can't remember the name but looking inside it it was a bolted together thing and very nice too.
I had one of those BSR record deck things and made a RIAA preamp for it with an LM... whatever. Borrowed some girls nail polish to make the PCB.
Being stupid I bought a 'second' Hitachi 3700 something from the local Lo-Fi shop and then ended up with a Rega Planar three with some Ackneeroyd speakers. Then I bought a new stylus thing.
Later on I met someone who was into this 'Hi-Fi' stuff and 'we' bought up the RS stock of polycraptonate capacitors and I got a few big electrolytics from some shop...
We had the house Farad.
Anyway, I went and ripped all the low level lytics out of the Hitachi and replaced them with the polycraptonates and then dangled a couple of BIG electros off flying leads to the power supply. And I cleaned the connector stuff.
Then I switched things on and played Waysted and was totally Fword Gobsmacked.
But I seem to have forgot the question.....
Cheers
DNA
Ah yes, that was it.....
The Rega was sort of my own choice. I had heard/read about it and went down the shop and said.... 'Rega Planar 3 Please'.
So 'shop' blokes went 'snurk' at me and said OK.... but we've got one of these and showed me wot looked like Prince of Wales discription of arkitekturaral carbunkle wiv lotz of sparkly stuff and cantalevers wiv assenuff dials all over the place for only fifty quid more.
Anyway... went home with Rega.
Hmmm.... that wasn't the question either?
DNA
The Rega was sort of my own choice. I had heard/read about it and went down the shop and said.... 'Rega Planar 3 Please'.
So 'shop' blokes went 'snurk' at me and said OK.... but we've got one of these and showed me wot looked like Prince of Wales discription of arkitekturaral carbunkle wiv lotz of sparkly stuff and cantalevers wiv assenuff dials all over the place for only fifty quid more.
Anyway... went home with Rega.
Hmmm.... that wasn't the question either?
DNA
Nice atempt gnomerics, I'l give you that >_<
serengetiplains, you say sound improvement.
do you think those improvements can be mesured?
are you hearing a change in the amps behavioure with a smps, or you time and effort that went in to modifying the amp?
last time i asked the question, things got ugly, but it's a valid question non the less.
when i "know" that changing a good oversized linear suply with a good oversized smps wont make jack **** worth of difference, than i wont hear anything either. 😉
serengetiplains, you say sound improvement.
do you think those improvements can be mesured?
are you hearing a change in the amps behavioure with a smps, or you time and effort that went in to modifying the amp?
last time i asked the question, things got ugly, but it's a valid question non the less.
when i "know" that changing a good oversized linear suply with a good oversized smps wont make jack **** worth of difference, than i wont hear anything either. 😉
demogorgon said:
Of course there will be differences in measurements if you change the power supply. There will be measurable differences in power supply impedance from bypassing or changing the filter caps and it is likely that with bypassing, unless you are fortunate there will be ringing too... Your point is?
Rob.
Hmmmm....
It wasn't meant as a nice attempt but I wrote it whilst drunk so in and effort to make it sound like it was going somewhere I might have got it wrong.
I think what I was trying to say is that if you make changes then you don't need to know exactly what you are doing and the changes you make can and will make a difference.
If you make those changes on the basis of a little bit of knowledge and belief then the result can and will be better.
Obviously it might blow up and you will violate any manufacturers gaurantees but you take your chances...... and avoid the high voltage stuff or don't blame me.
I don't doubt that on 'consumer' stuff a quick or slow and careful bit of DIY is going to make things better.... well, back in the good old days anyway.....
If you are doing DIY from the start then the world has oysters
In terms of measurement.. Yes I would expect to be able to measure a difference.
However, one of the things in my head is that these 'measurements' are always going to be a bit iffy while they keep the kit in its operating range.
Music is music and it is dynamic.
I think a real sort of test would be to do a two tone test. 100Hz plus 5KHz. 100Hz to shunt the amplifier into clipping and then some sort of measurement on the 5KHz to see how it recovers from the event.
We've seen some of that in this forum where people have looked at overload recovery after clipping. It may well be one of the 'real' reason why poorly implemented feedback causes problems.
If you want a class D take on things then consider that the slew rate of your amplifier depends on the voltage you can place across the output inductor. The highest sine wave frequency you can reproduce depends on how fast you can slew the current in the inductor.
If someone bonks thier bass drum is it possible that it might upset the piccolo? I think so.
I am burbling......
Yes Measurement Does, Does Not give you the true picture and as a result I would believe my ears. I would still look for a reason why.
To be on topic I very much doubt that the folks at Nuforce have reached the stage where they might even begin to think about these things. Others will have done.... but might not talk about it.
DNA
Ooooops drunk again, that's the problem with drunk people... they do babble on....
It wasn't meant as a nice attempt but I wrote it whilst drunk so in and effort to make it sound like it was going somewhere I might have got it wrong.
I think what I was trying to say is that if you make changes then you don't need to know exactly what you are doing and the changes you make can and will make a difference.
If you make those changes on the basis of a little bit of knowledge and belief then the result can and will be better.
Obviously it might blow up and you will violate any manufacturers gaurantees but you take your chances...... and avoid the high voltage stuff or don't blame me.
I don't doubt that on 'consumer' stuff a quick or slow and careful bit of DIY is going to make things better.... well, back in the good old days anyway.....
If you are doing DIY from the start then the world has oysters
In terms of measurement.. Yes I would expect to be able to measure a difference.
However, one of the things in my head is that these 'measurements' are always going to be a bit iffy while they keep the kit in its operating range.
Music is music and it is dynamic.
I think a real sort of test would be to do a two tone test. 100Hz plus 5KHz. 100Hz to shunt the amplifier into clipping and then some sort of measurement on the 5KHz to see how it recovers from the event.
We've seen some of that in this forum where people have looked at overload recovery after clipping. It may well be one of the 'real' reason why poorly implemented feedback causes problems.
If you want a class D take on things then consider that the slew rate of your amplifier depends on the voltage you can place across the output inductor. The highest sine wave frequency you can reproduce depends on how fast you can slew the current in the inductor.
If someone bonks thier bass drum is it possible that it might upset the piccolo? I think so.
I am burbling......
Yes Measurement Does, Does Not give you the true picture and as a result I would believe my ears. I would still look for a reason why.
To be on topic I very much doubt that the folks at Nuforce have reached the stage where they might even begin to think about these things. Others will have done.... but might not talk about it.
DNA
Ooooops drunk again, that's the problem with drunk people... they do babble on....
Robert F said:
while it can to some extent be measured, will you hear it?
my hypothesis is based on two flawless implementations of power sources, perfectly capable of the situation set before them, in every aspect, switching and linear.
will you hear the differences of the two solely based on their difference in topoligy? no, i'd say no in a heartbeat.
now move to the realm of practical use, and practical well engineered products.
still the same? i still say yes. i cannot hear the difference.
Genomerics said:
well, things can most often be improved, yes.
but realistically, how much of those improvements, like snubbers, like putting 100nf caps everywhere, actually is audible?
not to nemption the practis of switching caps for "better sounding ones", like black gates ect, even pealing the plastic off them ^^
i belive that the kind of tweaking an ordinary diy'er can perform and think out on his own in a well engineered product, is ordinarily not going to give audible performance gains. it's rather the effort and increased attension to the music after such a modification one hears.
that has been my experience anyways.
-Marius
Oh come come,
I measured two orange things with my orange meter and they were obviously different so I spent a great deal of time making the other one the same orange as the first one. They still tasted different.
You're comparing oranges to traffic cones.
I suppose there might be a concept of diminishing returns though.
DNA
I measured two orange things with my orange meter and they were obviously different so I spent a great deal of time making the other one the same orange as the first one. They still tasted different.
You're comparing oranges to traffic cones.
I suppose there might be a concept of diminishing returns though.
DNA
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