SUPRAVOX
Mark,
As far as I can remember the cheaper Supravoxs' were already 500+ a couple of years ago.
Even if that is inclusive of VAT (our local salestax system) it would still be far more than the Fostex.
Dave,
I haven't heard anything with regard to QC problems here.
What I do notice is that no one seems to put a pricelist up.
That is something I would feel even more uncomfortable with.
Ciao,😉
Mark,
As far as I can remember the cheaper Supravoxs' were already 500+ a couple of years ago.
Even if that is inclusive of VAT (our local salestax system) it would still be far more than the Fostex.
Dave,
I haven't heard anything with regard to QC problems here.
What I do notice is that no one seems to put a pricelist up.
That is something I would feel even more uncomfortable with.
Ciao,😉
Re: Navin
""Well, If I put the speakers in my current room a meter from the back wall, they are in the centre of the room!!! Ok, but it is only about 10' X 10', and with the property prices here, this is what I am stuck with for a very long time. Thus the need for a good sounding speaker that will work in the less than ideal setting.""
Sorry to pop into this thread so late, but you've said that your listening room is 10' square, and yet you're compromising your choices in search of a good off axis response...
In a room that size, surely your better off designing for a small sweet spot, and positioning your chair for that spot? - you've already said its your own room away from wife/kids etc... do you move about a lot when listening to music😉 ?
It looks like you're trying to design the "best speaker in the world"tm and maybe you should design the "best speaker for your room"tm ...
just my 2 cents, and good luck with whatever you go for...
Rob
surf said:
""Well, If I put the speakers in my current room a meter from the back wall, they are in the centre of the room!!! Ok, but it is only about 10' X 10', and with the property prices here, this is what I am stuck with for a very long time. Thus the need for a good sounding speaker that will work in the less than ideal setting.""
Sorry to pop into this thread so late, but you've said that your listening room is 10' square, and yet you're compromising your choices in search of a good off axis response...
In a room that size, surely your better off designing for a small sweet spot, and positioning your chair for that spot? - you've already said its your own room away from wife/kids etc... do you move about a lot when listening to music😉 ?
It looks like you're trying to design the "best speaker in the world"tm and maybe you should design the "best speaker for your room"tm ...
just my 2 cents, and good luck with whatever you go for...
Rob
Dave, What I have in mind is an open baffle speaker based very closely on the Basszilla designed by Dick Olsher (I bought his plans) The Basszilla has a Fostex 208 (the older model) in an open baffle augmented by a 15" Audax pro driver in a bass box Efficiency is around 97dB.
I have bought cheaper bass drivers (Selenium 1505) I almost
regret this now because the Audax paper 15" pro driver has been confirmed as an exceptional driver by a friend of mine, but they run about $280 ea. This turns out to be kind of a bargain.
Oh well, I'll replace the bass drivers later as my finances get better ( I paid $100 ea on sale at Parts Express)
The new Fostex FE208E Sigma has Qts of 0.18
The old Fostex FE208 Sigma has Qts of 0.21
Dick says the old 208 is great in an open baffle. To me the specs seem close enough that the new 208 should be ok. What do you think? I'm taking a bit of a risk on the new 208, but I've heard some rumors that it is good, and it looks so COOL.
The Fostex's have a rising freq response , which as I mentioned earlier, allows me to tilt them a bit and get better dispersion.
It is almost a relief to hear the Supravox are so pricey, it cuts down on my choices. If fact, considering that they do about all the work, $1000 plus a pair might be reasonable, just not for me now. I'm sure the link Dave gave us for the Suprevox's would respond to an e-mail inquiry regarding price. I don't think I'll bother him since they seem well out of my range
Lynn,
I know that you (as I am) are limited in how much you can spend, but the Supravox do look like the only speakers that meet your demands. Especially when you call this a Reference Speaker.
Maybe this should wait till you have better funding. In the mean time why not continue to to work on our "Frugalphile (TM) reference speaker"
The Basszilla varient I 'm doing will cost about $700 in drivers for the pair
I have bought cheaper bass drivers (Selenium 1505) I almost
regret this now because the Audax paper 15" pro driver has been confirmed as an exceptional driver by a friend of mine, but they run about $280 ea. This turns out to be kind of a bargain.
Oh well, I'll replace the bass drivers later as my finances get better ( I paid $100 ea on sale at Parts Express)
The new Fostex FE208E Sigma has Qts of 0.18
The old Fostex FE208 Sigma has Qts of 0.21
Dick says the old 208 is great in an open baffle. To me the specs seem close enough that the new 208 should be ok. What do you think? I'm taking a bit of a risk on the new 208, but I've heard some rumors that it is good, and it looks so COOL.
The Fostex's have a rising freq response , which as I mentioned earlier, allows me to tilt them a bit and get better dispersion.
It is almost a relief to hear the Supravox are so pricey, it cuts down on my choices. If fact, considering that they do about all the work, $1000 plus a pair might be reasonable, just not for me now. I'm sure the link Dave gave us for the Suprevox's would respond to an e-mail inquiry regarding price. I don't think I'll bother him since they seem well out of my range
Lynn,
I know that you (as I am) are limited in how much you can spend, but the Supravox do look like the only speakers that meet your demands. Especially when you call this a Reference Speaker.
Maybe this should wait till you have better funding. In the mean time why not continue to to work on our "Frugalphile (TM) reference speaker"
The Basszilla varient I 'm doing will cost about $700 in drivers for the pair
Variac said:
Almost any driver used with a suitable hi-pass works best in an open baffle... instead of a horn you are using a 15" -- works for me
When i was doing ProPA, the hi-efficiency (103 dB) Audax PR300 was our favorite driver. These are still reletively unknown over here, but are good. The talent that designed them has gone on to form PHL (i think i have that right).
New, new, new... i've been waiting for the banana pulp, and more importantly, the trick surround to filter down from the NF1 ever since i saw & heard them at AES 107.
The 168 is my favorite of the lot thou... you might find you need a bit of help on the top with the 208.
dave
Dave- Don't tell Dick but I'm gonna roll off the top and add a tweet someday. The Basszilla has a notch filter to controll the 208's 2 resonance peaks around 3-4k . The new one has a single peak around 3.5K so I figger the old notch filter might just work.
I'm glad to hear that you too have been taken in with the groovy Banana fiber pulp, dome whizzer, sculpted surround, riged cone, etc.
I'm glad to hear that you too have been taken in with the groovy Banana fiber pulp, dome whizzer, sculpted surround, riged cone, etc.
rob wells wrote...
It looks like you're trying to design the "best speaker in the world"tm and maybe you should design the "best speaker for your room"tm ...
rob, almost any speaker built by a diyer is designed for the diyer's room and taste. that it te sole advatage of bsing a diyer. i can buy a 5/6"2 way like the B&W303 far cheaper than it would cost me to build it.
that done, i am looking at my next project (similar to Lynn's) while still having one incompelte one on my hands. the boxes are done and now I am working now to use resin impregnated fiberglass to strengthen the box (someone earlier likend the box to a panzer tank).
Once i get the fiberglass bit figured out I will send new pics to dave of teh box with fiber glass and then box with foam damping.
It looks like you're trying to design the "best speaker in the world"tm and maybe you should design the "best speaker for your room"tm ...
rob, almost any speaker built by a diyer is designed for the diyer's room and taste. that it te sole advatage of bsing a diyer. i can buy a 5/6"2 way like the B&W303 far cheaper than it would cost me to build it.
that done, i am looking at my next project (similar to Lynn's) while still having one incompelte one on my hands. the boxes are done and now I am working now to use resin impregnated fiberglass to strengthen the box (someone earlier likend the box to a panzer tank).
Once i get the fiberglass bit figured out I will send new pics to dave of teh box with fiber glass and then box with foam damping.
supravox prices
Check this page about Supravox prices
http://www.audiokit.it/ITAENG/Altoparlanti/Supravox/SupraVox.htm
Carlo
Check this page about Supravox prices
http://www.audiokit.it/ITAENG/Altoparlanti/Supravox/SupraVox.htm
Carlo
PREZZI
Hi,
Grazie mille Carlo!
On first glance these prices are no more expensive than say,Focal Audax or similar brands.
All in all good news it seems,😉
Hi,
Grazie mille Carlo!
On first glance these prices are no more expensive than say,Focal Audax or similar brands.
All in all good news it seems,😉
Oh no!! more torture! If these are so close to affordable, they have to be considered.
the 215 RTF 64 seems to me to be perfect for this project and at 170 euro ea. they are quite a bargain if they can live up to their specs, sound good, and are obtainable! Considering that they probably sound fine in an open baffle without a woofer, it is a pretty cheap way to get into ultra-fi.
This is exactly what I would be paying for my Fostex's
For higher prices they have the heavy drugs for you addicts out there:
Alnico!
Field coils
Field coils with silver wire!
Looks like they are an alternative to Fertin-possibly a lot cheaper too?
Carlo: How reliable is this shop? can they really get them? We have to know!!
the 215 RTF 64 seems to me to be perfect for this project and at 170 euro ea. they are quite a bargain if they can live up to their specs, sound good, and are obtainable! Considering that they probably sound fine in an open baffle without a woofer, it is a pretty cheap way to get into ultra-fi.
This is exactly what I would be paying for my Fostex's
For higher prices they have the heavy drugs for you addicts out there:
Alnico!
Field coils
Field coils with silver wire!
Looks like they are an alternative to Fertin-possibly a lot cheaper too?
Carlo: How reliable is this shop? can they really get them? We have to know!!
<b>How reliable is this shop?</b>
Audiokit are good to deal with. My last order was about 10 days from order to rural Australia. Email response is within 24 hours and they speak English. If they can't get drivers, I'd say the problem would be with Supravox. Email and ask.
Audiokit are good to deal with. My last order was about 10 days from order to rural Australia. Email response is within 24 hours and they speak English. If they can't get drivers, I'd say the problem would be with Supravox. Email and ask.
Audiokit is reliable. Sometimes I buy parts from them, and I saw some projects based on the Supravox drivers, but I have not yet auditioned
anything.
Variac,
did you consider the Quasar developed by Bert Doppenberg?
http://www.bd-design.nl/forum/reply.php?id=1032,1032
this project seems to be very similar to the open baffles displayed on the Supravox website...
anything.
Variac,
did you consider the Quasar developed by Bert Doppenberg?
http://www.bd-design.nl/forum/reply.php?id=1032,1032
this project seems to be very similar to the open baffles displayed on the Supravox website...
Hre's a contendr from an unlikely source:
The RCF 800
I'll try to track down some info
http://www.simplycheap.com/general-electronics-audio-dj-equipment-dj-speakers.html
The RCF 800
I'll try to track down some info
http://www.simplycheap.com/general-electronics-audio-dj-equipment-dj-speakers.html
I realise this is at odds with the original intent of the thread but I'd always heard that xo-ing at around 4k where the ear is really sensitive (esp to phase changes) was a really bad idea. Better to xo at 150Hz, possibly even higher.
If that were an option then one of the nice 100mm Fostex units (FE108 sigma used on axis?) (now 108E sigma I believe) in a sealed box would get you fast and tight from 150 all the way to above 15k. Plus, with an eff of 92dB or there abouts and better than 10 watts power handling you'd get your desired 100dB with no hassles.
Grab an audax PR240mo in a sealed 60 litre cabinet to do the low stuff and cross it over actively.
BTW, My past experience with Syntec for Fostex units (fe168 sigma) was that I could have purcased thru EIFL or probably direct from Fostex in Japan, paid full import duties and still got them faster and cheaper. They charged a mint, took ages(multiple months), they don't keep any of that kind of thing in stock. At the end of the day, I was paying them a 30% distributors markup for making a phonecall to order the units sea freight from Japan. That's not a distributor, that's a secretary.
IMO, my advice is go direct if possible.
Have you considered a single driver backhorn?
Drew
If that were an option then one of the nice 100mm Fostex units (FE108 sigma used on axis?) (now 108E sigma I believe) in a sealed box would get you fast and tight from 150 all the way to above 15k. Plus, with an eff of 92dB or there abouts and better than 10 watts power handling you'd get your desired 100dB with no hassles.
Grab an audax PR240mo in a sealed 60 litre cabinet to do the low stuff and cross it over actively.
BTW, My past experience with Syntec for Fostex units (fe168 sigma) was that I could have purcased thru EIFL or probably direct from Fostex in Japan, paid full import duties and still got them faster and cheaper. They charged a mint, took ages(multiple months), they don't keep any of that kind of thing in stock. At the end of the day, I was paying them a 30% distributors markup for making a phonecall to order the units sea freight from Japan. That's not a distributor, that's a secretary.
IMO, my advice is go direct if possible.
Have you considered a single driver backhorn?
Drew
I always think about the best speakers my ears know, and they dont´t
need the full range from 150 to 4k in one go to sound that good!
Seems like you all are looking for the best Fullrange.
Anybody listened Avantgardes Trios!?
Wombat
need the full range from 150 to 4k in one go to sound that good!
Seems like you all are looking for the best Fullrange.
Anybody listened Avantgardes Trios!?
Wombat
Drew
Well, It looks like I'm guilty of threadjacking or worse-sowing confusion!!
I was pretty sceptical of Lynn ever accomplishing his goal because he had so many conflicting goals, so when we found the Supravox that did handle most of them (especially that they will cover the range of 80hz to 8000 that I think he is looking for)I got a little excited. Dispersion still is an issue I think-but maybe tilting ..... I didn't know the 4000 range was a critical one, (that's very important input) but I have always planned to cross more around 8k
I don't know why I posted that last driver because it is claimed only to go to 4k and there reallly were no specs
I think Lynn was looking for close to 100db per watt/meter not 100 dB total, so the smaller Fostex doesn't do the job. This seems to be the major conflict-efficiency vs. beaming due to size.
An Audax PR of some sort seems to be the universal recommendation for the bass, although most have recommended bigger. Unfortunately I tried to save a buck and got another brand pro woofer, but I can get started this way and later upgrade if needed.
After this digression, my system of the week is a 15" pro bass driver (i've got the Selenium 1505's) in a sealed 150 liter box, actively crossed over at about 170 hz (as you recommend) to a Fostex FE208ES (is more efficient and won't exceed x-max at higher levels) in an open baffle on hinges allowing it to be tilted back to flatten the response and widen the dispersion. My old Hafler 220 amp for the bass, my Son of Zen for the Fostex. LAter I think I will end up with a tweeter crossed over about 8000. These drivers should be good for about 96 dB/watt/meter which will work for me! Dispersion might be bad, but might work out OK.
Wombat:
Looks like reasonably cheap is another requirement so the Trios are waaay too pricey
but I would sure love to hear them.
I still think the Supravox's are about the only ones that seem to work for Lynn, since he wants that low crossover but without a chart showing off axis response I don't know how he can decide. I think the idea of tilting them radically to get the dispersion,then filling in the roll-off with a tweeter might work
Well, It looks like I'm guilty of threadjacking or worse-sowing confusion!!
I was pretty sceptical of Lynn ever accomplishing his goal because he had so many conflicting goals, so when we found the Supravox that did handle most of them (especially that they will cover the range of 80hz to 8000 that I think he is looking for)I got a little excited. Dispersion still is an issue I think-but maybe tilting ..... I didn't know the 4000 range was a critical one, (that's very important input) but I have always planned to cross more around 8k
I don't know why I posted that last driver because it is claimed only to go to 4k and there reallly were no specs
I think Lynn was looking for close to 100db per watt/meter not 100 dB total, so the smaller Fostex doesn't do the job. This seems to be the major conflict-efficiency vs. beaming due to size.
An Audax PR of some sort seems to be the universal recommendation for the bass, although most have recommended bigger. Unfortunately I tried to save a buck and got another brand pro woofer, but I can get started this way and later upgrade if needed.
After this digression, my system of the week is a 15" pro bass driver (i've got the Selenium 1505's) in a sealed 150 liter box, actively crossed over at about 170 hz (as you recommend) to a Fostex FE208ES (is more efficient and won't exceed x-max at higher levels) in an open baffle on hinges allowing it to be tilted back to flatten the response and widen the dispersion. My old Hafler 220 amp for the bass, my Son of Zen for the Fostex. LAter I think I will end up with a tweeter crossed over about 8000. These drivers should be good for about 96 dB/watt/meter which will work for me! Dispersion might be bad, but might work out OK.
Wombat:
Looks like reasonably cheap is another requirement so the Trios are waaay too pricey
but I would sure love to hear them. I still think the Supravox's are about the only ones that seem to work for Lynn, since he wants that low crossover but without a chart showing off axis response I don't know how he can decide. I think the idea of tilting them radically to get the dispersion,then filling in the roll-off with a tweeter might work
Sorry folks! I live in its town. My DAC is Trios approved meanwhle LM6172IM in the low-pass AD826as buffer - NOT to beat....
Wombat - drunken
Wombat - drunken
Mark / Variac,
With the size room that was mentioned "back in the early days" of this thread, I was under the impression that the room would overload at much over 100dB anyhow. Would have expected all of us suggesting Audax, Vifas, Peerless etc to have been slammed early on in the piece cos we were at least 6-14dB shy of the mark.
I know that all th original HiFi world designs from about KLS3 onwards until the mag got hit with the "Simon Pope" stick and went downhill (had it's heyday when Noel and Dominic were steering the boat) tried to avoid putting an xo where the ear was most sensitive. Hence the use of the HM100ZO for mids where it could run duties up to 6k. My wife's fave midrange driver of all time, that one.
I've currently got FE168 Sigmas on open baffles but they aint happy. Will be trying a reflex cab for them soon. My backhorns were not a huge success. Learnt alot in the process though.
Happy tweaking, building etc.
Now playing Albert King "Born Under a Bad Sign"
Drew
With the size room that was mentioned "back in the early days" of this thread, I was under the impression that the room would overload at much over 100dB anyhow. Would have expected all of us suggesting Audax, Vifas, Peerless etc to have been slammed early on in the piece cos we were at least 6-14dB shy of the mark.
I know that all th original HiFi world designs from about KLS3 onwards until the mag got hit with the "Simon Pope" stick and went downhill (had it's heyday when Noel and Dominic were steering the boat) tried to avoid putting an xo where the ear was most sensitive. Hence the use of the HM100ZO for mids where it could run duties up to 6k. My wife's fave midrange driver of all time, that one.
I've currently got FE168 Sigmas on open baffles but they aint happy. Will be trying a reflex cab for them soon. My backhorns were not a huge success. Learnt alot in the process though.
Happy tweaking, building etc.
Now playing Albert King "Born Under a Bad Sign"
Drew
Drew,
You may well be right which would help immeasurably.
I was pretty sure that at first I noticed efficiency wasn't essential, but then I thought Lynn got rid of some drivers that were less efficient say efficiency was also a requirement and that's when I couldn't see a way out . Maybe his new listening room will change the requirements. If the thing doesn't have to play too loud using an SET then there should be a lot more options. I have a new plan for my speakers- spend less time online and more time cutting wood. So I hope you hear less from me in the near future 🙄
Hmmmm drunken Wombats: I would have thought that would be an Aussie thang!!
You may well be right which would help immeasurably.
I was pretty sure that at first I noticed efficiency wasn't essential, but then I thought Lynn got rid of some drivers that were less efficient say efficiency was also a requirement and that's when I couldn't see a way out . Maybe his new listening room will change the requirements. If the thing doesn't have to play too loud using an SET then there should be a lot more options. I have a new plan for my speakers- spend less time online and more time cutting wood. So I hope you hear less from me in the near future 🙄
Hmmmm drunken Wombats: I would have thought that would be an Aussie thang!!
I will drop in with a question to Drew,
The Sigma series, on most drivers, shows a rising response starting around 2khz. How do you deal with it?
The Sigma series, on most drivers, shows a rising response starting around 2khz. How do you deal with it?
Bearing in mind that the **8Sigma series has been replaced with the **8ESigma and, of yet I haven't had a chance to look at the graphs...
The old 108, although rising a bit when on axis would give as near to dammit a flat response out to above 15k just by going a tad off axis. Instead of sitting at the apex of the triangle with them pointing straight at you, point them just a fraction more towards straight down the room. You'll lose a tiny bit of the direct high treble at the top end but as it will get into the overall reverbant soundfield i doubt it'll be that noticeable. I reckon 5 degrees of axis ought to be about right but it's easy enough to play with these things unless you have flat backed wall mounters or a very non understanding SO.
With the 168, as soon as you go off axis you lose lots of treble. The whizzer is very directional. Fortunately , it also had the flattest response of the three and there was only about a 2dB of lift across the range 2k - 5k. Personally, I'd just live with it (and if I get the cabinets for my 168's sorted then I plan to live quite happily with it)
Incedentally, Godzilla over at the fullrange driver forum has done a fair few tweaks on these. Thin wrappings of wool behind the whizzer cone (where some ofthe 2-5k shout is thought to originate) don't know if he's used the dammar resin on these.
Dragan swears by adhering alu foil to the surface of the fostex's but I don't know of anyone else who's tried it.
Re the 208 sigma, this is the closest to a lowther size drop in so lots of folks wantto make it work. it also has the highest sensitivity. problem is, it's far from flat. Folks go to the fullrange units to get away from networks cos of the phase and other problems they introduce, then, first time someone shows them a driver they want to use that aint flat they go and bung a network on the front of it. My personal opinion is that Fostex should have done more R&D rather than releasing the 208 as it was. if they could have got it sorted flat then it could have been a giant killer.
I'd stay away from it but many others love it and it's alot better for horn loading than the 168.
I'll be very interested to see how the new breed sound. I think the step away from whizzers is a good move.
Drew
The old 108, although rising a bit when on axis would give as near to dammit a flat response out to above 15k just by going a tad off axis. Instead of sitting at the apex of the triangle with them pointing straight at you, point them just a fraction more towards straight down the room. You'll lose a tiny bit of the direct high treble at the top end but as it will get into the overall reverbant soundfield i doubt it'll be that noticeable. I reckon 5 degrees of axis ought to be about right but it's easy enough to play with these things unless you have flat backed wall mounters or a very non understanding SO.
With the 168, as soon as you go off axis you lose lots of treble. The whizzer is very directional. Fortunately , it also had the flattest response of the three and there was only about a 2dB of lift across the range 2k - 5k. Personally, I'd just live with it (and if I get the cabinets for my 168's sorted then I plan to live quite happily with it)
Incedentally, Godzilla over at the fullrange driver forum has done a fair few tweaks on these. Thin wrappings of wool behind the whizzer cone (where some ofthe 2-5k shout is thought to originate) don't know if he's used the dammar resin on these.
Dragan swears by adhering alu foil to the surface of the fostex's but I don't know of anyone else who's tried it.
Re the 208 sigma, this is the closest to a lowther size drop in so lots of folks wantto make it work. it also has the highest sensitivity. problem is, it's far from flat. Folks go to the fullrange units to get away from networks cos of the phase and other problems they introduce, then, first time someone shows them a driver they want to use that aint flat they go and bung a network on the front of it. My personal opinion is that Fostex should have done more R&D rather than releasing the 208 as it was. if they could have got it sorted flat then it could have been a giant killer.
I'd stay away from it but many others love it and it's alot better for horn loading than the 168.
I'll be very interested to see how the new breed sound. I think the step away from whizzers is a good move.
Drew