what are the priorities you have on WAW design? Is it a compromise to point source benefits for a better LF extension.
I'm asking because I'm making up my mind to build an Alpair 11ms frugel-horn, So it would be great to know what is your design priorities so that I can decide whether to wait for the WAW design.
I'm asking because I'm making up my mind to build an Alpair 11ms frugel-horn, So it would be great to know what is your design priorities so that I can decide whether to wait for the WAW design.
It turns out that we have gotten the document sufficientl done to ship it off to the 1st diyer who will be using the A5.2 and an AudioNote SET. It does still need some work. It is an ambitious document (36 pages and i envisage a few more) and has takn some time to put together, as Scott & i reach consensus on some issues and try to stamp out the bugs.
The goals of a WAW is to get more bass and level capabilities than a FR usually has, with spacing that allows the 2 drivers to be essentially coincident. This requires a low XO which also means that many of the evils of the XO go away. Releaved of (much) of the needs to reproduce bass the midTweeter full range is better able to reproduce the critical midrange and the high frequencies are no longer modualted by the bass. If the XO can be done right they give up little to none of the seemlessness of a good FR, or when compared to a more typical 2 or 3-way multway where the crossover and spacing issues become much harder to deal with
The downsides are that it is more expensive to build with the large size of parts for even a simple passive XO often pushing the prices of the XO high enuff to make bi-amping less expensive.
This WAW’s goals were compactness, to use the underappreciated A12pw midbass driver and to allow for a verstaile midTweeter component. The A12pw is in a compact ML-TL, with the midTweeter (A5.2/3, A7.3, A7ms, P7HD or A10p) in a selection of half-wave or quarter-wave aperiodic midTLs to maximize midTop performance and supress the resonance peak to greatly improve the performance of a passive XO. A number of passive XO starting points are supplied (with differing compromises depending on the diyers needs and preferred approach) — we fully expect that real world feedback could lead to changes — and one can use a variety of line level XOs to biamp. PLLXO, analog, or DSP XOs.
Here is the title sheet with a visualization of one of the half-wave midTLs for the A5.2/3.
One could, i expect, substitute other suitable size midTweeters with appropriat eminting changes and if you are bi-amping.
dave
The goals of a WAW is to get more bass and level capabilities than a FR usually has, with spacing that allows the 2 drivers to be essentially coincident. This requires a low XO which also means that many of the evils of the XO go away. Releaved of (much) of the needs to reproduce bass the midTweeter full range is better able to reproduce the critical midrange and the high frequencies are no longer modualted by the bass. If the XO can be done right they give up little to none of the seemlessness of a good FR, or when compared to a more typical 2 or 3-way multway where the crossover and spacing issues become much harder to deal with
The downsides are that it is more expensive to build with the large size of parts for even a simple passive XO often pushing the prices of the XO high enuff to make bi-amping less expensive.
This WAW’s goals were compactness, to use the underappreciated A12pw midbass driver and to allow for a verstaile midTweeter component. The A12pw is in a compact ML-TL, with the midTweeter (A5.2/3, A7.3, A7ms, P7HD or A10p) in a selection of half-wave or quarter-wave aperiodic midTLs to maximize midTop performance and supress the resonance peak to greatly improve the performance of a passive XO. A number of passive XO starting points are supplied (with differing compromises depending on the diyers needs and preferred approach) — we fully expect that real world feedback could lead to changes — and one can use a variety of line level XOs to biamp. PLLXO, analog, or DSP XOs.
Here is the title sheet with a visualization of one of the half-wave midTLs for the A5.2/3.
One could, i expect, substitute other suitable size midTweeters with appropriat eminting changes and if you are bi-amping.
dave
Dave's covered most of it; in essence you can exploit the extra BW of wideband drivers to run a 2-way with a crossover lower than you can with a regular dome tweeter. In the process you get the majority of the wideband driver's characteristics, with reduced distortion and increased dynamic range / power handling as it no longer has to operate at bass frequencies and excursion is significantly reduced. Both valid takes; depends where your priorities lie.
After giving much thought i think i will stick with the alpair 11ms frugel-horn build. Because i ended up in the alpair after doing alot of thought process starting from 3 ways. Now the waw design TL boxes mean more complications in terms to build from a cost point of view and xovers kind of add to the complexity.
And residing in a place such as india where hifi audio is still not as established in the community, it would not be possible to take into consideration variants like room acoustics and placement of speakers when designing xovers. And if i buid xover purely on theoretical and graphical values im pretty positive that it will not end up well.
Not that i dislike xovers in the typical fashion, i just want to move on to a simple design which works well in a small to medium room. My listening levels are light to moderate and most of the content i listen to is above 40hz.
Anyways if anyone got any good quality recordings of 11ms listening sessions please do share. Would help me a bit to judge the character.
And residing in a place such as india where hifi audio is still not as established in the community, it would not be possible to take into consideration variants like room acoustics and placement of speakers when designing xovers. And if i buid xover purely on theoretical and graphical values im pretty positive that it will not end up well.
Not that i dislike xovers in the typical fashion, i just want to move on to a simple design which works well in a small to medium room. My listening levels are light to moderate and most of the content i listen to is above 40hz.
Anyways if anyone got any good quality recordings of 11ms listening sessions please do share. Would help me a bit to judge the character.
Hey guys. Hope everyone's doing well.
Wanted to ask opinion on frugel-horn xl with alpair 11ms.
Is the frugel-horn design sensitive to the symmetry of the room.? Im asking because my room is not symmetrical on either sides of the speakers. For instance the left side of the left speaker is a free corner but the right side of the right speaker is immediately met by a wardrobe. Basically right speaker is snug fit between the table where i keep my amp equipment and the wardobe. Is it going to negatively impact the frugel-horn sound characteristics..?
Second question is do i need a baffle step correction for FHXL with alpair 11ms. Im concered because i see some spikes in the FRD of alpair 11ms above 6khz
Wanted to ask opinion on frugel-horn xl with alpair 11ms.
Is the frugel-horn design sensitive to the symmetry of the room.? Im asking because my room is not symmetrical on either sides of the speakers. For instance the left side of the left speaker is a free corner but the right side of the right speaker is immediately met by a wardrobe. Basically right speaker is snug fit between the table where i keep my amp equipment and the wardobe. Is it going to negatively impact the frugel-horn sound characteristics..?
Second question is do i need a baffle step correction for FHXL with alpair 11ms. Im concered because i see some spikes in the FRD of alpair 11ms above 6khz
Dave, where were we re the P7PHD? I have had the second set on break-in probably exceeding 500 hours now. Anyway, there is TONS of high treble, even to my mid 60's ears. I think my second pair has more top end than my first pair. Probably slight differences in production runs as I purchased these several months apart; possibly a year apart between orders???
I still use the Fostex T90A above 10 KHz but "I" NEED it; others with better HF hearing most likely will be completely satisfied! ANYONE afraid of trying the P7PHD because they think the top octave may be too weak; I say; GO FOR IT! I don't find it weak at all. BUT, if you can still hear "FLAT" above 15 KHz, maybe try the metal cone version instead!??
to be continued...
Still downstairs continuing to break in. I have move dthe FH3 with Alpair 7.3eN they will be compared to closer to the door, and may even get to attempting to see how i do moving them upstairs today.
They do, in the lower resolving system downstairs, in the less friendly space sound quite musical.
They haven’t been makin gthe P7PHD for a years yet. But you could have pre & post pandemic (in China) examples, you would have to ask Madisound.
dave
They do, in the lower resolving system downstairs, in the less friendly space sound quite musical.
They haven’t been makin gthe P7PHD for a years yet. But you could have pre & post pandemic (in China) examples, you would have to ask Madisound.
dave
My opinion, is that it is dependent upon what you are listening that will determine whether or not additional high frequency presence is required. They do sound great without tweeters but for me sound better with tweeters most of the time because of what I listen to and of course my hearing which like the rest of me has not seemed to improve with age
e.g. without the tweeters I can still hear the high frequencies but they are definitely lower in output than the rest of the output - as designed.
I think with old recordings and or Youtubethey are fine sans tweeter.
Fun and jokes aside they are fine without tweeters but better with for me.
e.g. without the tweeters I can still hear the high frequencies but they are definitely lower in output than the rest of the output - as designed.
I think with old recordings and or Youtube
they are fine sans tweeter.Fun and jokes aside they are fine without tweeters but better with for me.
Attachments
I think I got the first ones last May or June; certainly by early July. I almost ordered a pair from England but then Madisound started stocking then much to my surprise! I probably got some of the first pairs Madisound had stocked (I'm guessing without asking); it was QUITE early anyway; right after they began to stock them...
GET HELP GETTING THOSE THINGS UPSTAIRS! At our age; we can't afford any major "boo-boos" ha ha ha...
(My second set, the ones now testing; I got early April, 2020...)
Yeah, maybe don't try this by yourself. I can come up a bit later and give you a hand.
jeff