Nice pictures... & speaker boxes...
I'ed say forget anything other then Pro drivers - the moment you take a HiFi type speaker out into the open environment - like Burning Man - the low efficiency of HiFi gear becomes painfully apparent....
Have a look @ Dr Geddes on waveguides thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=103872
check out the kits from :
http://www.eighteensound.com/index.aspx?mainMenu=kits
Also in an open field environment you can pretty much forget getting any bottom end unless it's at least a 12" & more like a 15" woofer
you may also consider something like:
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/DCX2496.aspx
for an active system on a budget - the controller can tame ( somewhat ) rough sounding drivers - though the digital iron is absolutely no substitude for well performing transducers....
Alternatively check-out a PA hire joint & see what they've got on offer - you might get lucky - though most of the gear from a PA hire shop gets shagged severely - but ask their opinion & see if you can get a Meyer sound on a Behringer bufget ;-)
good luck
I'ed say forget anything other then Pro drivers - the moment you take a HiFi type speaker out into the open environment - like Burning Man - the low efficiency of HiFi gear becomes painfully apparent....
Have a look @ Dr Geddes on waveguides thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=103872
check out the kits from :
http://www.eighteensound.com/index.aspx?mainMenu=kits
Also in an open field environment you can pretty much forget getting any bottom end unless it's at least a 12" & more like a 15" woofer
you may also consider something like:
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/DCX2496.aspx
for an active system on a budget - the controller can tame ( somewhat ) rough sounding drivers - though the digital iron is absolutely no substitude for well performing transducers....
Alternatively check-out a PA hire joint & see what they've got on offer - you might get lucky - though most of the gear from a PA hire shop gets shagged severely - but ask their opinion & see if you can get a Meyer sound on a Behringer bufget ;-)
good luck
fiddling with Unibox
I've been fiddling with Unibox. Kinda fun to play with!
First, the Speaker Design sheet. At the top, I entered in the Eminence 10CX TS parameters. Set constants to default, except gave Linear Cone Overdrive= 1.15. Selected single driver, of course.
Down to the vented box section and entered in my existing port diameter (7.6 cm). Port type= one flush end. Then, to the 'Design by Vb, Fb, and Q' subsection- I entered in cabinet size (34 L). I didn't know the port Qp, so I entered in 120 (saw some other 10" with that number). Then, I played around with Fb until the port length matched what I have in the box (8.0 cm). So Fb landed on 62.5 Hz. Please see attached result graph.
I went back to the top and adjusted my power so the 'SPL tot' dark blue curve on the graph just crosses the red SPL Xmax line= 20 watts. That should get me ~109db.
Back to the design sheet- the calculated numbers (in red) give me a port min dia. of 5.27 cm? Why not 7.6 cm, as I entered?
Does this look right?
cheers- Kent
I've been fiddling with Unibox. Kinda fun to play with!
First, the Speaker Design sheet. At the top, I entered in the Eminence 10CX TS parameters. Set constants to default, except gave Linear Cone Overdrive= 1.15. Selected single driver, of course.
Down to the vented box section and entered in my existing port diameter (7.6 cm). Port type= one flush end. Then, to the 'Design by Vb, Fb, and Q' subsection- I entered in cabinet size (34 L). I didn't know the port Qp, so I entered in 120 (saw some other 10" with that number). Then, I played around with Fb until the port length matched what I have in the box (8.0 cm). So Fb landed on 62.5 Hz. Please see attached result graph.
I went back to the top and adjusted my power so the 'SPL tot' dark blue curve on the graph just crosses the red SPL Xmax line= 20 watts. That should get me ~109db.
Back to the design sheet- the calculated numbers (in red) give me a port min dia. of 5.27 cm? Why not 7.6 cm, as I entered?
Does this look right?
cheers- Kent
Attachments
...and here are the cone excursion and port airspeed graphs.
I start exceed excursion at ~35 Hz. But as the driver is ~20db down from peak at 80Hz, do I need to really worry?
Port air speed is up slightly, going over the 17 m/s line at 60Hz. I guess that might mean I would get very slight 'chuffing' @ that freq?
-Kent
I start exceed excursion at ~35 Hz. But as the driver is ~20db down from peak at 80Hz, do I need to really worry?
Port air speed is up slightly, going over the 17 m/s line at 60Hz. I guess that might mean I would get very slight 'chuffing' @ that freq?
-Kent
Attachments
LuminousMaximus said:
Hi LuminousMaximus- Thanks for the input! Yep, I've seen too many fellow burners bring up home hi-fi speakers (allbeit cheap ones) just to suffer from the heat. Like surround glue melting and detachment...
I checked out the links, thanks. Yep, it was decided early on these won't be ground shakers. Infinia and panomaniac mentioned I would need to do a HP filtering. I am going to keep it simple (passive EQ). Less to break down up there.
Re: fiddling with Unibox
Kent
Looking at your first chart, the vented box SPL is composed of two parts, driver + port response. So at the peak around Fb, the ports contribution is not constrained by the Xmax limit line.
For high SPL's depending on musical content <Fb and SQ, the real limit is really somewhere between Xmax and Xmech. As you already know, line level HP filtering can be applied but at some expense of circuit complexity and low freq sound. Another choice is to simply stuff the port. Either with a fixed (removable) plug giving the closed box response or a variable amount of acoustic wadding, giving an aperiodic response.
AFAIK there is a bug in Unibox. I usually use WinISD before plugging in Unibox and double check with a port calculator
Edit>
What I would do is a add a simple passive line level filter (2nd order) between the pre and power amp giving 3 dB extra overhead. As well using a port plug when in transport/storage or when somebody else has access to the gain knob.
Kent
Looking at your first chart, the vented box SPL is composed of two parts, driver + port response. So at the peak around Fb, the ports contribution is not constrained by the Xmax limit line.
For high SPL's depending on musical content <Fb and SQ, the real limit is really somewhere between Xmax and Xmech. As you already know, line level HP filtering can be applied but at some expense of circuit complexity and low freq sound. Another choice is to simply stuff the port. Either with a fixed (removable) plug giving the closed box response or a variable amount of acoustic wadding, giving an aperiodic response.
AFAIK there is a bug in Unibox. I usually use WinISD before plugging in Unibox and double check with a port calculator
Edit>
What I would do is a add a simple passive line level filter (2nd order) between the pre and power amp giving 3 dB extra overhead. As well using a port plug when in transport/storage or when somebody else has access to the gain knob.
Thanks, infinia. A bug, you say? I have been noticing some odd behavior with unibox.
I open two unibox spreadsheets, enter the same driver, but get different results.
On the one with the screwier-looking results, I get an 'OBS!' warning. On both, I get an '!' warning, too. What's the OBS warning?
Sometimes when I hit the update button I get a 'run time error 1004'. Sometimes I don't- I just keep on hitting the update button until it goes through. My OS is mac OSX 10.5.
Yep, I guess it's buggy.
Adjusting Levels- It will most likely be an integrated 60-80w amp for power. I could put a little filter box between amp and ipods. Easier to make adjustments in the speaker x-over, no?
Cheers- Kent
I open two unibox spreadsheets, enter the same driver, but get different results.
On the one with the screwier-looking results, I get an 'OBS!' warning. On both, I get an '!' warning, too. What's the OBS warning?
Sometimes when I hit the update button I get a 'run time error 1004'. Sometimes I don't- I just keep on hitting the update button until it goes through. My OS is mac OSX 10.5.
Yep, I guess it's buggy.
Adjusting Levels- It will most likely be an integrated 60-80w amp for power. I could put a little filter box between amp and ipods. Easier to make adjustments in the speaker x-over, no?
Cheers- Kent
I don't know I've never seen the warning. Trash it and DL a new one. I think your problem might be related to running multiple copies at the same time (macro's). I thought you had the enclosure tuning.
Crossover will be in the copper enclosure unless you are going active. You can do the HPF with bypass at line level... If you know the impedances of the amp and IPOD.
Crossover will be in the copper enclosure unless you are going active. You can do the HPF with bypass at line level... If you know the impedances of the amp and IPOD.
piggybacking on this idea
Our burningman camp is a food themed camp, and we serve breakfast (see http://nlp.stanford.edu/jrfinkel/shadywaffle/ for last year's flier). This thread inspired me to build a speaker for burningman made out of a thick aluminum cooking pot enclosure. It fits the theme!
I like the steampunk style copper, but a cooking pot reminds me of my Genelec aluminum enclosure, strangely mixed with the tube enclosure my old boss used to use (Dr. Hsu), but made rugged.
Any thoughts on using the Eminence driver in a cooking pot? Either a 10 inch or 8 inch.
Second question is would a 15 watt t-amp power this Eminence driver easily? Electricity is scarce out there, and it would be impressive to see a tiny battery powered amp connected to an ipod producing loud music.
Our burningman camp is a food themed camp, and we serve breakfast (see http://nlp.stanford.edu/jrfinkel/shadywaffle/ for last year's flier). This thread inspired me to build a speaker for burningman made out of a thick aluminum cooking pot enclosure. It fits the theme!
I like the steampunk style copper, but a cooking pot reminds me of my Genelec aluminum enclosure, strangely mixed with the tube enclosure my old boss used to use (Dr. Hsu), but made rugged.
Any thoughts on using the Eminence driver in a cooking pot? Either a 10 inch or 8 inch.
Second question is would a 15 watt t-amp power this Eminence driver easily? Electricity is scarce out there, and it would be impressive to see a tiny battery powered amp connected to an ipod producing loud music.
Cool! I'll need to find you and your speakers! I like the t-amp idea, certainly would be an affordable & energy-sipping. 15 watts is pretty little, but might be worth a try.
Our camp does 'Pimp Yr Bike', so we are placed usually in center camp which has a power grid. Which is why I'm even thinking of building a 'Burning Amp' using GM-70's for next year!
Nice camp, menu, BTW!
Our camp does 'Pimp Yr Bike', so we are placed usually in center camp which has a power grid. Which is why I'm even thinking of building a 'Burning Amp' using GM-70's for next year!
Nice camp, menu, BTW!
unibox fine- user has bug
So, I finally got unibox to work well, it worked fine on my macbook (intel processor). My old G5 didn't like running it and gave error notices. Also, I need to remember to press ALL the update buttons!
Attached are 3 set-ups for different Fb frequencies, using the 10CX driver. It looks like 54Hz (the set-up in the middle) matches my port length (8cm). What I still don't understand is it gives me a 'minimum port diameter- 5.73cm'? As I entered in 7.6cm, do I need to reduce it to 5.73? If I use 7.6cm dia, wouldn't that effect the port frequency differently from 5.73?
I am pretty convinced this is the most economical driver for the job.
-Kent
So, I finally got unibox to work well, it worked fine on my macbook (intel processor). My old G5 didn't like running it and gave error notices. Also, I need to remember to press ALL the update buttons!
Attached are 3 set-ups for different Fb frequencies, using the 10CX driver. It looks like 54Hz (the set-up in the middle) matches my port length (8cm). What I still don't understand is it gives me a 'minimum port diameter- 5.73cm'? As I entered in 7.6cm, do I need to reduce it to 5.73? If I use 7.6cm dia, wouldn't that effect the port frequency differently from 5.73?
I am pretty convinced this is the most economical driver for the job.
-Kent
Attachments
The Eminence Delta 10 claims to have a 98.8 dB sensitivity. Wow! That is the only alternative I've found.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=290-412
Unibox disagrees with this specification, and it calculated a different sensitivity when given all the raw data. Not sure why.
With that kind of response, it would probably power the speaker with just a timy solar panel and t-amp, like this guy:
http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-Solar-Boombox/
It would cost an additional 100 dollars in batteries, panels, and solar chargers, which would have to go outside the cooking pot enclosure, but it would kinda astonishing to get almost 100 db from a tiny solar panel.
Am I missing something? I previously believed it took a huge amount of wattage to get loud, especially in the deeper notes. Does the crossover add resistance that could reduce the SPL?
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=290-412
Unibox disagrees with this specification, and it calculated a different sensitivity when given all the raw data. Not sure why.
With that kind of response, it would probably power the speaker with just a timy solar panel and t-amp, like this guy:
http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-Solar-Boombox/
It would cost an additional 100 dollars in batteries, panels, and solar chargers, which would have to go outside the cooking pot enclosure, but it would kinda astonishing to get almost 100 db from a tiny solar panel.
Am I missing something? I previously believed it took a huge amount of wattage to get loud, especially in the deeper notes. Does the crossover add resistance that could reduce the SPL?
HF drivers for the Beta-10CX
So I'm pretty set on the Beta-10CX. I got to get them ordered soon. I was going to get the APT-50 for the HF.
Any good experiences with the APT-50? Or, are there better choices that won't break the bank? I've read that the Selenium DT150 and the Eminence PSD2002 might be improvements. I gather these would need some sort of adapter collar.
-Kent
(bluewhale- we bring up non-moopy stuff to decorate bikes. Paint, fabric, shiny stuff, old toys & xmas ornaments, doll parts, Whatever we can lay our hands on cheap!)
So I'm pretty set on the Beta-10CX. I got to get them ordered soon. I was going to get the APT-50 for the HF.
Any good experiences with the APT-50? Or, are there better choices that won't break the bank? I've read that the Selenium DT150 and the Eminence PSD2002 might be improvements. I gather these would need some sort of adapter collar.
-Kent
(bluewhale- we bring up non-moopy stuff to decorate bikes. Paint, fabric, shiny stuff, old toys & xmas ornaments, doll parts, Whatever we can lay our hands on cheap!)
Hi
Here is the baseline Econowave crossover ( version for Higher eff woofer) SPICE model this will give you a teaser of how the circuit behaves. More work on the Pi pad and possibly moving the frequency around a bit higher.
Full baffle step 6 dB with a further loss of about 1dB at LF.
crosses around 2.4KHz.
Here is the baseline Econowave crossover ( version for Higher eff woofer) SPICE model this will give you a teaser of how the circuit behaves. More work on the Pi pad and possibly moving the frequency around a bit higher.
Full baffle step 6 dB with a further loss of about 1dB at LF.
crosses around 2.4KHz.
Attachments
Hi Infinia- Thank you very much! I was wondering if the x-over would need some BSC. I am pretty green when it comes to x-over design, so I really appreciate your help.
Stumbling around on the Econo-wave threads, I found the Selenium D220Ti compression driver. It looks like a decent step up from the APT-50, for not much more money.
I came across this in an old thread-What about Eminence for home audio...the 'Cheap Trick' using the Beta 10CX w/ the APT-50. Click on one of the last links in the next post. Frequency response looks mighty ugly. Would going to the Selenium d220Ti improve things? Or is the lousy HF response a result of using the 10CX cone as the waveguide?
The Econo-wave thread(s) are informative, not to mention huge! I even got to thinking mounting the tweet and a waveguide on top of the speaker- quickie render attached. A bit bulky!
-Kent
Stumbling around on the Econo-wave threads, I found the Selenium D220Ti compression driver. It looks like a decent step up from the APT-50, for not much more money.
I came across this in an old thread-What about Eminence for home audio...the 'Cheap Trick' using the Beta 10CX w/ the APT-50. Click on one of the last links in the next post. Frequency response looks mighty ugly. Would going to the Selenium d220Ti improve things? Or is the lousy HF response a result of using the 10CX cone as the waveguide?
The Econo-wave thread(s) are informative, not to mention huge! I even got to thinking mounting the tweet and a waveguide on top of the speaker- quickie render attached. A bit bulky!
-Kent
Attachments
I would go with a couple of SLA 5-10 Ah batteries for your project. You could get a pair of SLAs and recharge one while the other is running.
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/SPL-6012/12V-SOLAR-PANEL/-CHARGER/-/1.html
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/SPL-005/5W-12V-SOLAR-PANEL/1.html
IIRC, my T-amp would last ~8-10 hours on rechargable NiMh AA's with 90db efficient speakers (4 ohm impedance). You probably will get ~3x more current capacity from a 7.5 Ah SLA. If you aren't cranking the T-amp at maximum current drain, then you should be able to charge one while depleting the other, then swap the batteries the next day, without doing a total discharge of either SLA.
Good luck!
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/SPL-6012/12V-SOLAR-PANEL/-CHARGER/-/1.html
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/SPL-005/5W-12V-SOLAR-PANEL/1.html
IIRC, my T-amp would last ~8-10 hours on rechargable NiMh AA's with 90db efficient speakers (4 ohm impedance). You probably will get ~3x more current capacity from a 7.5 Ah SLA. If you aren't cranking the T-amp at maximum current drain, then you should be able to charge one while depleting the other, then swap the batteries the next day, without doing a total discharge of either SLA.
Good luck!
kstlfido said:
They don't publish the FR curves of the APT50 on the Eminence website, but some of their other tweeters have awful frequency linearity. I would think that the response has to do with the particular tweeter at the volume levels they test at.
Can we mount other tweeters in the Eminence coaxials? I would think so but one of us should call them.
I bought for the 8CX and will look at the back also. The Eminence website has a ported box design for .6 cu. ft that works well down to the 80 Hz or so.
Hmm, their specified frequency response of a Selenium in the horn is much different from the anoechoic one. Then again, i doubt the Cx10 acts like a horn.kstlfido said:
This is another option that has decent reported FR: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=290-446&ctab=2#Tabs
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