Naim heavily tried to brainwash me in the 80ties, but my humor is still not that weird as yours, Rensli.
Lol😀
But yes, i cant help myself thinking about this topology and its sound... its fun and rewarding... "sound" is the most rewarding thing imo😀
But yes, start thinking big is the key.
Just solder with some 97 / 3 Cu tin and see how fast it cools down compared to leaded tin.
Then there is that lead free silver tin... its so good if u solder carbon film components with it... its softens the sounds so much.
The mass guys, it matters for both channels, u can correct it with capacitors but still...
****...i am so deep in it.
Guys, think it like this. You have 2 bells in ur rooms, made out of brass, they are positioned just like speakers are. You ring them simultaneously and u feel so soft and cool harmonics from them. And then idea comes... how can i simulate this same scenario using electricity?
EDIT: Just some strange tought: Cool naim topology made correctly = 1000 virgins.
Some other good amplifier = 1 virgin.
Lol
Julian Vereker was genious, no doubt !
But yes, i cant help myself thinking about this topology and its sound... its fun and rewarding... "sound" is the most rewarding thing imo😀
But yes, start thinking big is the key.
Just solder with some 97 / 3 Cu tin and see how fast it cools down compared to leaded tin.
Then there is that lead free silver tin... its so good if u solder carbon film components with it... its softens the sounds so much.
The mass guys, it matters for both channels, u can correct it with capacitors but still...
****...i am so deep in it.
Guys, think it like this. You have 2 bells in ur rooms, made out of brass, they are positioned just like speakers are. You ring them simultaneously and u feel so soft and cool harmonics from them. And then idea comes... how can i simulate this same scenario using electricity?
EDIT: Just some strange tought: Cool naim topology made correctly = 1000 virgins.
Some other good amplifier = 1 virgin.
Lol
Julian Vereker was genious, no doubt !
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About the powersupply diodes.
Trying to position them from the capacitors correctly is cool... sound, harmonics are very depended on it.
Just buy 100 cheap 6A or 10A silindrical diodes, make tiny full bridges out of them and start positioning them.
Trying to bend theyr legs in different shape is also a good idea.
Doing correctly you will find that, its almost that we are listening to them entirely.
Its cool to think that we take the "physical" and convert it to sound "energy" that sorround us in our rooms 🙂)
Hmm, can u compare a human to an amplifier ? Or atleast some of humans activities ?
For example... we are what we eat right ?
Amplifiers are same... powersupply is like food to them... without it, amplifier cant do a thing lol... same as us.
Idea = sound(rhythm also) + harmonics, amplify it trought speakers... humans do the same... we push our ideas trought actions...
Its like where the true art meets science.
Trying to position them from the capacitors correctly is cool... sound, harmonics are very depended on it.
Just buy 100 cheap 6A or 10A silindrical diodes, make tiny full bridges out of them and start positioning them.
Trying to bend theyr legs in different shape is also a good idea.
Doing correctly you will find that, its almost that we are listening to them entirely.
Its cool to think that we take the "physical" and convert it to sound "energy" that sorround us in our rooms 🙂)
Hmm, can u compare a human to an amplifier ? Or atleast some of humans activities ?
For example... we are what we eat right ?
Amplifiers are same... powersupply is like food to them... without it, amplifier cant do a thing lol... same as us.
Idea = sound(rhythm also) + harmonics, amplify it trought speakers... humans do the same... we push our ideas trought actions...
Its like where the true art meets science.
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I am guys just saying, that only trought these topology u will learn how every component and every material you use with it will have its properties amplified into the speaker😀
This topology is the best for learning and make it fun !!
The sound from this topology can make reality even more real. That is what julian vereker was all about ! Thats why he did not love other amplifiers... they still produce **** in these days.....
Maybe we should put out a team or smth.... cuz naim needs competition 😀
This topology is the best for learning and make it fun !!
The sound from this topology can make reality even more real. That is what julian vereker was all about ! Thats why he did not love other amplifiers... they still produce **** in these days.....
Maybe we should put out a team or smth.... cuz naim needs competition 😀
we will have to take the time to exchange information on your research in PM.
For all these years, I have always had several JLHs on the worktable and my hybrid NAP which is closer to a NAIT3 but above all, I have accumulated +/- 10,000 NOS transistors of all brands and references.
For a few months now, I don't really have time to have fun with all this anymore because I started my own business in hifi electronic troubleshooting in subcontracting for stores but that does not prevent me from continuing to learn and find information about my favorite amps
For all these years, I have always had several JLHs on the worktable and my hybrid NAP which is closer to a NAIT3 but above all, I have accumulated +/- 10,000 NOS transistors of all brands and references.
For a few months now, I don't really have time to have fun with all this anymore because I started my own business in hifi electronic troubleshooting in subcontracting for stores but that does not prevent me from continuing to learn and find information about my favorite amps
Yes, right chemistry at the right spots of the circuit.
There are some instance with diodes, for example baxandal diode, it must be situated near the lower driver transistor.
Basically, if u get everything timmed, the bias current wont even matter, the lower the better for 2SC5200.
In some case, feedback ratio of 39k/1.5k fits more for 2SC5200. This is true when using 2SC2240 as bias and tip as drivers. EDIT: when using 39k, do it with 270mR emitters.
Lol, its hard to perfect this alone but its possible 😀
EDIT: Image shows the diodes that needs matching for both channels.
If u turn on the amplifier, then after few minutes, they should be +/- 1-2mV for both channels. The tighter the matching, the better(u have to understand acoustical behaviour behind this scenario).
U can regulate matching with mass, adding more tin to the legs of the diodes lol.
There are some instance with diodes, for example baxandal diode, it must be situated near the lower driver transistor.
Basically, if u get everything timmed, the bias current wont even matter, the lower the better for 2SC5200.
In some case, feedback ratio of 39k/1.5k fits more for 2SC5200. This is true when using 2SC2240 as bias and tip as drivers. EDIT: when using 39k, do it with 270mR emitters.
Lol, its hard to perfect this alone but its possible 😀
EDIT: Image shows the diodes that needs matching for both channels.
If u turn on the amplifier, then after few minutes, they should be +/- 1-2mV for both channels. The tighter the matching, the better(u have to understand acoustical behaviour behind this scenario).
U can regulate matching with mass, adding more tin to the legs of the diodes lol.
Attachments
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4148 or 916 small switching diodes
are usual very consistent
they are just voltage references for the current sources
you cant hear current sources.
most of what your saying sounds like nonsense
are usual very consistent
they are just voltage references for the current sources
you cant hear current sources.
most of what your saying sounds like nonsense
4148 or 916 small switching diodes
are usual very consistent
But they regulate current, the bias and VAS currents are dependent on them.
Just a small temperature change in the amp. case affects these two little diodes. If both channels drift in different direction, sound and harmonics will change.
Yes you can lol, diodes have sound, everything contributes, usually based on VF and legs quality, aluminum, copper or some other alloy.
U will hear it even more if temp. has a huge effect on it.
Have u measured the amp vas currents and bias while its on 25-100% power output ?
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Yes correct
Im very aware of current sources changing with temperature
If the diodes heat up the current will drop
If the transistors heat up the current will rise
The diodes can cause more of a jump.
but its usually non issue.
If you bias the amplifier to the usual 30 ma
temperature fluctuations of the current sources
would cause bias to drift to no more than 27mA to 32mA
Its of little concern since the actual heating of the output devices can cause
much larger fluctuations
The Naim style amplifiers dont use current mirrors for the differential pair
so drifting of the constant current sources can cause DC offset of the amplifier to change
Again actual DC offset caused by the current sources thermal changes is very minimal
around 2 to 3 mV
I would not say the naim differential is a poor design, but it already has intentional DC offset by design.
As long as the amplifier is biased correctly, and the amount of output DC offset
present will always be what it is, because the design already intentionally makes a certain amount of DC offset.
Of course if anybody wanted to " improve" these traits, which are for the most part non issue depending on opinions
You would simple use current mirrors, and feedback type current sources which can be thermal tracked to eliminate drifting issues of very basic diode type current sources.
as mentioned 4148 or 916 diodes will always be what they will be.
you cannot match them...they already are
and any thermal drifting is unavoidable regardless of lead alloy.
If bias drifts from 27 to 32 mA.....its not audible
DC offset drifts 2 to 3 mV.....its not audible
With Emitter followers or Quasi type output stages
Thermal drift of basic diode current sources is not a big deal.
With Sziklai of Compound output stages...then yes
it would be somewhat possible if the vas/bias spread current source jumped to much
it would have a larger effect on the bias shifting.
Im very aware of current sources changing with temperature
If the diodes heat up the current will drop
If the transistors heat up the current will rise
The diodes can cause more of a jump.
but its usually non issue.
If you bias the amplifier to the usual 30 ma
temperature fluctuations of the current sources
would cause bias to drift to no more than 27mA to 32mA
Its of little concern since the actual heating of the output devices can cause
much larger fluctuations
The Naim style amplifiers dont use current mirrors for the differential pair
so drifting of the constant current sources can cause DC offset of the amplifier to change
Again actual DC offset caused by the current sources thermal changes is very minimal
around 2 to 3 mV
I would not say the naim differential is a poor design, but it already has intentional DC offset by design.
As long as the amplifier is biased correctly, and the amount of output DC offset
present will always be what it is, because the design already intentionally makes a certain amount of DC offset.
Of course if anybody wanted to " improve" these traits, which are for the most part non issue depending on opinions
You would simple use current mirrors, and feedback type current sources which can be thermal tracked to eliminate drifting issues of very basic diode type current sources.
as mentioned 4148 or 916 diodes will always be what they will be.
you cannot match them...they already are
and any thermal drifting is unavoidable regardless of lead alloy.
If bias drifts from 27 to 32 mA.....its not audible
DC offset drifts 2 to 3 mV.....its not audible
With Emitter followers or Quasi type output stages
Thermal drift of basic diode current sources is not a big deal.
With Sziklai of Compound output stages...then yes
it would be somewhat possible if the vas/bias spread current source jumped to much
it would have a larger effect on the bias shifting.
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You are talking about distortion products caused by non-linear circuits, either from a change of component types or the electronic design/layout. Unless you have resistive solder, wrong or fake semis caps or some other strange construction materials and layout. Otherwise, there won't be any real sound differences that don't also accord with the time lapse and your change of condition between one listening sample and the next. If you're like me, a period of more than a minute or so in moving about when changing components, means I've lost the plot because when the circuit is restored to its initial state, it seems different again 
This discussion really stems from Naim's unique sound quality or rather their former, very distinctive mix of distortion products that came from their less than linear, original NAP and NAIT series amplifier designs. If that sounds like dismissive criticism, it could be but to a lot of audiophiles and music lovers, the resulting sound is more enjoyable than typical stereo products in imaging and accentuation of "preferred" low order harmonics. Others who are accustomed to ultra low distortion, studio sound, or recording and broadcast standard sound, may find it too sweet, dense or splashy (the PR&T effect) but we are also talking about acquired or learned tastes, accepted beliefs and what I understand are our natural dispositions.
My experience is that as we grow, mature and age, our preference and tolerance for certain harmonics and tones in the music program changes too. When I noticed the change in my father's tonal preferences over about 30 years, I realised there was more to this effect than I imagined. He became slightly deaf in one ear and the effects were disturbing to him because the tone controls of his amp. needed to have separate adjustments for each channel. Then he needed good quality headphones to maintain the desired benefits, though they couldn't fully restore the original stereo imaging and depth effects.
However, if you like to listen to effects with your music, that's fine and so do I when I hear some interesting ones that give me a new and richer musical experience than with my ULD, blameless type amplifiers. Even if it seems crazy to play about with solders, unsuitable components or semis, why wouldn't anyone follow their preferences when they have the choice? The only problem I can see, is that no one out there may understand what you actually prefer or gain from your efforts and miss that point.
Whatever the electronic achievements with sound effects though, don't neglect that it will be influenced by your hearing. That may need some professional attention and the earlier, the better.
This discussion really stems from Naim's unique sound quality or rather their former, very distinctive mix of distortion products that came from their less than linear, original NAP and NAIT series amplifier designs. If that sounds like dismissive criticism, it could be but to a lot of audiophiles and music lovers, the resulting sound is more enjoyable than typical stereo products in imaging and accentuation of "preferred" low order harmonics. Others who are accustomed to ultra low distortion, studio sound, or recording and broadcast standard sound, may find it too sweet, dense or splashy (the PR&T effect) but we are also talking about acquired or learned tastes, accepted beliefs and what I understand are our natural dispositions.
My experience is that as we grow, mature and age, our preference and tolerance for certain harmonics and tones in the music program changes too. When I noticed the change in my father's tonal preferences over about 30 years, I realised there was more to this effect than I imagined. He became slightly deaf in one ear and the effects were disturbing to him because the tone controls of his amp. needed to have separate adjustments for each channel. Then he needed good quality headphones to maintain the desired benefits, though they couldn't fully restore the original stereo imaging and depth effects.
However, if you like to listen to effects with your music, that's fine and so do I when I hear some interesting ones that give me a new and richer musical experience than with my ULD, blameless type amplifiers. Even if it seems crazy to play about with solders, unsuitable components or semis, why wouldn't anyone follow their preferences when they have the choice? The only problem I can see, is that no one out there may understand what you actually prefer or gain from your efforts and miss that point.
Whatever the electronic achievements with sound effects though, don't neglect that it will be influenced by your hearing. That may need some professional attention and the earlier, the better.
I don't know how Rensli performs his listening tests and I agree that auditory memory is the least good of all and certainly the one most influenced by our state of mind at the time the test is performed.
However, for more than 10 years, I have always carried out my tests in the same way, in the same room with the same CD, the same speakers and the same player. I am not saying that it is the ultimate solution but I I had become so intimate with this CD and this setup that I could hear the slightest difference in reproduction and I ended up keeping all the devices that came closest to what I liked in terms of "sound".
I divorced two years ago and bought a house a year ago and now I am starting over from almost zero to try to rebuild a good baseline against which to perform my tests.
all that to say, if Rensli does the same, I can understand it.
However, for more than 10 years, I have always carried out my tests in the same way, in the same room with the same CD, the same speakers and the same player. I am not saying that it is the ultimate solution but I I had become so intimate with this CD and this setup that I could hear the slightest difference in reproduction and I ended up keeping all the devices that came closest to what I liked in terms of "sound".
I divorced two years ago and bought a house a year ago and now I am starting over from almost zero to try to rebuild a good baseline against which to perform my tests.
all that to say, if Rensli does the same, I can understand it.
It is somewhat accepted that there is a certain " magic" to amplifiers
which have a high 2nd harmonic content.
Some peoples hearing seem to be more sensitive to it than others.
Likewise if you did a quick A/B test between 2 amplifiers.
One with higher 2nd and one without.
Many would not even notice a difference.
So it is a good point.
Everyone has a favorite piece of music, which you know every nuance.
So yes, using the same speakers.
And Hearing a very familiar piece of music.
It is more likely you would notice how it changes, tones of certain instruments.
Some people may like it, some people might not.
As far a Quasi complementary amplifiers.
There is numerous ways to increase 2nd harmonics and numerous ways to reduce it.
So you might be playing around with 3 to 4 different passive components
and doing weird things that have been described.
But in reality depending on bias levels, resistor values used for the compound side, or if a baxadall diode is used or isnt used. there is multiple ways of making the circuit have higher or lower 2nd harmonics. And bias will change that a lot.
Which likewise can effect high frequency distortion. So its one trade off for another.
Or again to retain higher bias, but still have higher of lower 2nd harmonic. it evolves changing resistor values to either keep the circuit linear, or intentionally not make it linear.
And yes not everyone is impressed by adding distortion to a audio signal to make it sound richer. Some people prefer one or the other.
And as mentioned, in a quick A/B test or a blind test.
Most people wont hear it. It is, like many other listening test.
People will notice a difference over longer periods of time, using the same speakers as reference.
And also hearing a musical passage they are very familiar with.
" distortion" can be a static number like .03% or .0001%
and there is simple but complicated answers why sometimes a .3% amplifier can sound " better" or worse.
then again we can talk about, lead alloys and magic ways of soldering things or other crazy contraptions. In reality it either does nothing. Or it was just changing bias or Dc offset . either raised or lowered 2nd harmonics. Which is a strange thing about quasi amplifiers. Depending on how the circuit is made, with or without the diode. bias has a big effect.
Reality , bias should always be the usual 30 mA for high frequency and crossover performance. And if you want to increase or decrease the harmonics of the amplifier it should be done by approaching the circuit different. Also not using current mirrors, for intentional DC offset is not needed either.
either way there is a good 3 to 5 different ways to get the same outcome
even or odd harmonics.
which have a high 2nd harmonic content.
Some peoples hearing seem to be more sensitive to it than others.
Likewise if you did a quick A/B test between 2 amplifiers.
One with higher 2nd and one without.
Many would not even notice a difference.
So it is a good point.
Everyone has a favorite piece of music, which you know every nuance.
So yes, using the same speakers.
And Hearing a very familiar piece of music.
It is more likely you would notice how it changes, tones of certain instruments.
Some people may like it, some people might not.
As far a Quasi complementary amplifiers.
There is numerous ways to increase 2nd harmonics and numerous ways to reduce it.
So you might be playing around with 3 to 4 different passive components
and doing weird things that have been described.
But in reality depending on bias levels, resistor values used for the compound side, or if a baxadall diode is used or isnt used. there is multiple ways of making the circuit have higher or lower 2nd harmonics. And bias will change that a lot.
Which likewise can effect high frequency distortion. So its one trade off for another.
Or again to retain higher bias, but still have higher of lower 2nd harmonic. it evolves changing resistor values to either keep the circuit linear, or intentionally not make it linear.
And yes not everyone is impressed by adding distortion to a audio signal to make it sound richer. Some people prefer one or the other.
And as mentioned, in a quick A/B test or a blind test.
Most people wont hear it. It is, like many other listening test.
People will notice a difference over longer periods of time, using the same speakers as reference.
And also hearing a musical passage they are very familiar with.
" distortion" can be a static number like .03% or .0001%
and there is simple but complicated answers why sometimes a .3% amplifier can sound " better" or worse.
then again we can talk about, lead alloys and magic ways of soldering things or other crazy contraptions. In reality it either does nothing. Or it was just changing bias or Dc offset . either raised or lowered 2nd harmonics. Which is a strange thing about quasi amplifiers. Depending on how the circuit is made, with or without the diode. bias has a big effect.
Reality , bias should always be the usual 30 mA for high frequency and crossover performance. And if you want to increase or decrease the harmonics of the amplifier it should be done by approaching the circuit different. Also not using current mirrors, for intentional DC offset is not needed either.
either way there is a good 3 to 5 different ways to get the same outcome
even or odd harmonics.
I see you've thought about the harmonic distortion matter quite a bit too, White Dragon.
The problem for a lot of constructors who want to join in the search for their ideal amp. though, is where to begin and who's preferences are closest to our own. The safest approach would would be to aim for no distortion, just as the engineering fraternity keep insisting we should but that would be a pointless exercise in copying what is already out there, is better looking, has more facilities and almost as cheap as our parts cost when you add a nice case, power supply, connectors and controls.
We could also just go shopping, buy a topline audio amp from a bigstore and tell everyone how happy we are or not after a month or as long as it takes to make a balanced assessment. Then let's assemble our bargain Naim clone kit and repeat the process. (It's usually quite disappointing BTW)
One catch is, that we likely neglected to understand that the original product has more details that don't often appear on the simplified kit schematics. Some appear on one specific original design (i.e. the early NAP 250 power amplifier schematic) that floats around the 'net. Otherwise, they are simply omitted or copied over from one design to another without compensation for supply differences or they're altered without explanation, on the simplified schematics that come with Chinese Ebay and other platform seller kits, finished boards and complete power amplifiers. There are probably more differences with substituted semis, cap. types, resistor and pot. values that may need attention too.
I found that the supposed NAP 140 kit is only given that title because the nominal rated power of the first, HifiDIY kit shown at the OP, is similar. By direct comparison and measurements, The real NAP140 has several differences to all 3 stages shown on the schematics (if any) and overlays of the kit PCBs. The recommended supply voltages are actually for the larger, regulated power supply (NAP250) model so they are too high for the current limiting to work properly. It's actually quite a screwed-up design if you build as suggested by the sellers.
The problem for a lot of constructors who want to join in the search for their ideal amp. though, is where to begin and who's preferences are closest to our own. The safest approach would would be to aim for no distortion, just as the engineering fraternity keep insisting we should but that would be a pointless exercise in copying what is already out there, is better looking, has more facilities and almost as cheap as our parts cost when you add a nice case, power supply, connectors and controls.
We could also just go shopping, buy a topline audio amp from a bigstore and tell everyone how happy we are or not after a month or as long as it takes to make a balanced assessment. Then let's assemble our bargain Naim clone kit and repeat the process. (It's usually quite disappointing BTW)
One catch is, that we likely neglected to understand that the original product has more details that don't often appear on the simplified kit schematics. Some appear on one specific original design (i.e. the early NAP 250 power amplifier schematic) that floats around the 'net. Otherwise, they are simply omitted or copied over from one design to another without compensation for supply differences or they're altered without explanation, on the simplified schematics that come with Chinese Ebay and other platform seller kits, finished boards and complete power amplifiers. There are probably more differences with substituted semis, cap. types, resistor and pot. values that may need attention too.
I found that the supposed NAP 140 kit is only given that title because the nominal rated power of the first, HifiDIY kit shown at the OP, is similar. By direct comparison and measurements, The real NAP140 has several differences to all 3 stages shown on the schematics (if any) and overlays of the kit PCBs. The recommended supply voltages are actually for the larger, regulated power supply (NAP250) model so they are too high for the current limiting to work properly. It's actually quite a screwed-up design if you build as suggested by the sellers.
we had already addressed this problem many times in recent years and we had always come to the same point.
either we do extensive and in-depth research to get as close as possible to the original and ESPECIALLY try to understand it, or we just build the ebayexpress kit and it works ... or not.
sometimes I want to say: "happy the simple of minds"
either we do extensive and in-depth research to get as close as possible to the original and ESPECIALLY try to understand it, or we just build the ebayexpress kit and it works ... or not.
sometimes I want to say: "happy the simple of minds"
It still happens to me to be touched by a commercial amp but it must be recognized that it is increasingly rare and especially without reaching stratospheric prices.
despite everything, i always smile when i plug in my 3020 or my 303 or even the first jukebox tube amp that i modified.
despite everything, i always smile when i plug in my 3020 or my 303 or even the first jukebox tube amp that i modified.
A/B testing with naim amps....i feel like it wont work...unfortunaly cuz contacts need time, from on and off, everything needs time to adjust itself.
Testing just some waves and harmonics with A/B wont give much difference if that could be possible.
i was preparing PCB and components for AB...Bought golden contact high current relays, everything and then i dropped it cuz of some reason.
There is something else to it.....it feels like i am talking to a wall. lol
Its not that "greed" either... where one cant just stop developing an amplifier with super buper highfidelity soundstage, thats a wrong direction to go imo.
But you can adjust urself😀
Developement of this amp costs so little, speakers dont have to be high fidelity whatevereness... tantalums will convert any tweeter to a mellow high perfomance one....................................
Testing just some waves and harmonics with A/B wont give much difference if that could be possible.
i was preparing PCB and components for AB...Bought golden contact high current relays, everything and then i dropped it cuz of some reason.
There is something else to it.....it feels like i am talking to a wall. lol
Its not that "greed" either... where one cant just stop developing an amplifier with super buper highfidelity soundstage, thats a wrong direction to go imo.
But you can adjust urself😀
Developement of this amp costs so little, speakers dont have to be high fidelity whatevereness... tantalums will convert any tweeter to a mellow high perfomance one....................................
"There is something else to it.....it feels like i am talking to a wall. lol"
why you say that ?
why you say that ?
Its the concept behind this topology, i have experienced it once and most of us here arent i believe.
Transformer inner wiring should be check and how wires are leaving transformer.
Shielding does not contribute to the "sound quality" of the amplifier. So any toroid can be used, toroid especially, not E or some other type.
Solution would be to DRAW a physical layout how things are going to be, starting from the amplifiers AC socket(edit: actually from the wall socket, with additional 3m long ac cable) to the speaker contacts.
We have to work out the "standard" just like naim did, only then we can move on. Or we will depate and discuss this 8888 for ever. 😀
Transformer inner wiring should be check and how wires are leaving transformer.
Shielding does not contribute to the "sound quality" of the amplifier. So any toroid can be used, toroid especially, not E or some other type.
Solution would be to DRAW a physical layout how things are going to be, starting from the amplifiers AC socket(edit: actually from the wall socket, with additional 3m long ac cable) to the speaker contacts.
We have to work out the "standard" just like naim did, only then we can move on. Or we will depate and discuss this 8888 for ever. 😀