"Most" of the time a speaker with the electronics inside would be called a powered speaker. A speaker without passive XO components would be active.. However that doesn't define it as active analog or active digital.
Mine are active digital but until mini-dsp can make "linked mono" units I an stuck with external electronics.
Mine are active digital but until mini-dsp can make "linked mono" units I an stuck with external electronics.
Agreed, many different designs appear with a keyword search for ACTIVE SPEAKERS. Was just curious about this one particular system with this amp build.
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Thanks a lot. A beauty but XXL size. Next build I would use cases for mono or stereo channels.
You are right, when trying to order NX or FK types I get "out of stock" message.
So PK types are the BGs to test later.
I have reading for several pages in this thread, I just want to ask, can anyone record a music & upload to youtube for My Ref FE amplifier? I curious with the sound like many diy-ers in here give report the sound is very good , but sorry I have searching on youtube, none give video review. Looks for Pass Lab amp, there are many video reviews, so it will be more interesting to build one.
Maybe with some comparation BlackGate / Elna Silmic / Muse KZ / Pan FC will be better. Thanks
Maybe with some comparation BlackGate / Elna Silmic / Muse KZ / Pan FC will be better. Thanks
You are right active speakers typically includes crossovers / DSP and amps in cabinet. But as long the amplification is done after crossovers it is called active speaker. Independend if amps and crossovers are inside or outside of the cabinet.
I am using JRiver as DSP for a 2 (2,5) way speaker.
Attachments
@1543---
Great build. Really professional. None of mine ever look that good. I especially like the double decker transformers.
As for C9, I'll second Dario's comments on the BG PK. Everything else I have tried falls a little short of the PK.
I'm curious about the dual power inlets. Did you do 3 transformers per power inlet? Is this an effort to limit in-rush current without having to use a soft start?
Finally, please let us know if you can hear a difference between your digital volume control with 20 dB attenuator and attenuator free. I did a similar experiment, first controlling a pair of FEs with a bare ALPS pot, then controlling them with the digital volume control on my Squeezebox Touch. As you state, typical is more than 40 dB attenuation at the Squeezebox. In my case, any difference was very small and I slightly preferred the digital volume alone. I'm sure each system will respond a little differently, but it may turn out that digital volume control isn't the end of the world.
Jac
Great build. Really professional. None of mine ever look that good. I especially like the double decker transformers.
As for C9, I'll second Dario's comments on the BG PK. Everything else I have tried falls a little short of the PK.
I'm curious about the dual power inlets. Did you do 3 transformers per power inlet? Is this an effort to limit in-rush current without having to use a soft start?
Finally, please let us know if you can hear a difference between your digital volume control with 20 dB attenuator and attenuator free. I did a similar experiment, first controlling a pair of FEs with a bare ALPS pot, then controlling them with the digital volume control on my Squeezebox Touch. As you state, typical is more than 40 dB attenuation at the Squeezebox. In my case, any difference was very small and I slightly preferred the digital volume alone. I'm sure each system will respond a little differently, but it may turn out that digital volume control isn't the end of the world.
Jac
@ypjc, The difficulty with a video seems to be you need a FE to hear what an FE sonds like.
- even with a good recording. What might be more helpful are graphs of the output and possibly some in-room measurements. There have been a few postings of lab findings but they were on the earlier threads. I'm in the process of setting up and learning "Visual Analyzer" in hopes of doing some of that very stuff.
Introduction to VA
VA Thread
Also, My last FE chassis build was specifically designed to get the FEs out in circulation - so hopefully a couple independant reviews will appear. You can't take my word for the quality because I'm Vice President for FE propaganda.
1543 - Thanks, Just last week I was snooping around the DIY active crossover community as I have some very nice drivers and cabinets that would be fun to incorporate into an active system. It never occurred to me that JRiver could supply that function. Great tip for initial testing and project planning,
- even with a good recording. What might be more helpful are graphs of the output and possibly some in-room measurements. There have been a few postings of lab findings but they were on the earlier threads. I'm in the process of setting up and learning "Visual Analyzer" in hopes of doing some of that very stuff. Introduction to VA
VA Thread
Also, My last FE chassis build was specifically designed to get the FEs out in circulation - so hopefully a couple independant reviews will appear. You can't take my word for the quality because I'm Vice President for FE propaganda.
1543 - Thanks, Just last week I was snooping around the DIY active crossover community as I have some very nice drivers and cabinets that would be fun to incorporate into an active system. It never occurred to me that JRiver could supply that function. Great tip for initial testing and project planning,
1543 - Thanks, Just last week I was snooping around the DIY active crossover community as I have some very nice drivers and cabinets that would be fun to incorporate into an active system. It never occurred to me that JRiver could supply that function. Great tip for initial testing and project planning,
Bob,
A couple of nice things about building an active crossover system. First of all, like me, you have several extra FE amp channels. Plus you need another project. Although a simple system can sound just fine, there may be an advantage to isolating each driver from the others and letting each FE concentrate on driving it's own speaker. Also, expensive inductors are gone from the system and capacitors tend to be smaller, so you can afford better quality caps for the same money. A properly design circuit board for the crossover is nice, but you can get good results with point-to-point wiring.
Of course, I say this when I am in the process of upgrading my passive crossovers.
Jac
@ypjc, The difficulty with a video seems to be you need a FE to hear what an FE sonds like.
I agree with Bob. What is so compelling about the MyRef/FE is the sound stage and clarity that it creates, especially with good speakers. Whatever would be recorded on a video would still play over your existing amps, speakers, etc., so the value of the sound quality would be of your own components, not the FE. In the end, building FE amps or any other DIY project are an act of faith. I think the FE is a very nice amp and you wouldn't be disappointed, but if you are worried about the sound, you would be better with something you can audition. Unfortunately, that means commercially available systems and the cost for a given quality goes way up.
Couple of topics to touch on today.
YouTube video of audio components is like crappy photographs of sunsets.
Been playing with FE componentry, especially R10. Installed Vishay Z-foil naked in one channel, retained Riken in other channel. I don't know why it still surprises me that a single component in this design can change the entire sound of the amplifier, but it certainly does at R10. Vishay allows so much more high frequency information, and with it all the air and separation and sense of space, to pass unimpeded. The Riken is very restrictive of high frequency information, so much so that one wonders what happened to the upper range. Of course, the Riken sweetens the midrange and brings it forward, but never without a loss of detail and spatial definition. The Riken is very musical, even juicy, but it is not accurate. I am not a detail freak and prefer a musical presentation, but the Riken is simply too colored, too rounded and even slightly dull. The Vishay is utterly transparent without being at all bright or edgy. It permits intricate layering of instruments within a real space. It seems to allow every detail through without any emphasis on particular frequencies, ultimately neutral, smooth, open. Not saying the Vishay is perfect, either, but it seems to obscure less of the signal than either Riken or certainly the Shinkoh. Lots of resistors for sale out there, not all of them crazy expensive, and most if not all have their own sound. Riken might not be the best at R10.
One other adjustment I made to the Vishay channel, and I realize it might be a factor in my evaluation, is to reduce C34 from 27pF to 22pF, which is still double the value of the MyRef C. I should know better than to adjust two variables at once, but I just couldn't resist with the amp torn apart, laying in front of me. I feel that some of the edge has been taken off the highs, with possibly more clarity and spaciousness as a result. Perhaps the Vishay resistor would not sound as good with 27pF C34; I don't know if it's the determining factor. I will continue to experiment with R10 and C34. I urge others to do the same and report the results.
It seems that not many builders are really interested in experimenting to obtain the best sound from this amp, or that you would prefer Dario do all the work and follow his recommendations without question. I am not faulting Dario's exhaustive research, but I don't believe any one person can possibly account for all permutations and the type of sonics we each might prefer in our own systems. Almost every component you change in this amp will make a difference in the way it sounds.
Peace,
Tom E
YouTube video of audio components is like crappy photographs of sunsets.
Been playing with FE componentry, especially R10. Installed Vishay Z-foil naked in one channel, retained Riken in other channel. I don't know why it still surprises me that a single component in this design can change the entire sound of the amplifier, but it certainly does at R10. Vishay allows so much more high frequency information, and with it all the air and separation and sense of space, to pass unimpeded. The Riken is very restrictive of high frequency information, so much so that one wonders what happened to the upper range. Of course, the Riken sweetens the midrange and brings it forward, but never without a loss of detail and spatial definition. The Riken is very musical, even juicy, but it is not accurate. I am not a detail freak and prefer a musical presentation, but the Riken is simply too colored, too rounded and even slightly dull. The Vishay is utterly transparent without being at all bright or edgy. It permits intricate layering of instruments within a real space. It seems to allow every detail through without any emphasis on particular frequencies, ultimately neutral, smooth, open. Not saying the Vishay is perfect, either, but it seems to obscure less of the signal than either Riken or certainly the Shinkoh. Lots of resistors for sale out there, not all of them crazy expensive, and most if not all have their own sound. Riken might not be the best at R10.
One other adjustment I made to the Vishay channel, and I realize it might be a factor in my evaluation, is to reduce C34 from 27pF to 22pF, which is still double the value of the MyRef C. I should know better than to adjust two variables at once, but I just couldn't resist with the amp torn apart, laying in front of me. I feel that some of the edge has been taken off the highs, with possibly more clarity and spaciousness as a result. Perhaps the Vishay resistor would not sound as good with 27pF C34; I don't know if it's the determining factor. I will continue to experiment with R10 and C34. I urge others to do the same and report the results.
It seems that not many builders are really interested in experimenting to obtain the best sound from this amp, or that you would prefer Dario do all the work and follow his recommendations without question. I am not faulting Dario's exhaustive research, but I don't believe any one person can possibly account for all permutations and the type of sonics we each might prefer in our own systems. Almost every component you change in this amp will make a difference in the way it sounds.
Peace,
Tom E
It depends on what you want to obtain, a plain carbon like the one in the industrial BOM is more neutral.
Tom did you managed to try MK132s on R10?
Tom, be carefull experimenting with compensation... when I've did it I've been in strict contact with Siva that checked on simulation if the value didn't impair stability.
Also the compensation has a GREAT effect on sound, so much that what you heard is actually 80% due to it...
Absolutely, experimenting is fun and encouraged.
Possibly start from the BOM so that we have a common reference.
But for a no fuss build, use the BOM with confidence, it's the result of months of tests, repeated and, quite totally, confirmed by Bcmbob and Suburra.
I do have MK132's to try at R10. I plan to try the Amtrans resistor, as well, but PC is out of 390 ohm value, so I must buy them somewhere else. I can't find anyone else in NA who sells them. Must I go all the way to HiFi Collective in UK? Anyone have suggestions for other candidate resistors? I've got some 390 ohm PRP's on hand. I can't remember ever trying them at R10, but I know they exhibit some coloration when used elsewhere.
I plan to try different values for C34 within the recommended range of 10 to 27pF. I recall Siva made a post in one of the FE threads about C34 values. He stated that as C34 became larger than 10pF, distortion increased and stability decreased. I believe 27pF was established as the largest acceptable value. He stated he was going to experiment further, but has pretty much disappeared since then. I plan to back away from that highest value back toward the MyRef C value of 10pF, which seemed to yield beautiful sonics without any of the edge I detect from the FE. I don't know if compensation contributed to that quality, so I will experiment to find out for myself and share the results here.
Peace,
Tom E
I plan to try different values for C34 within the recommended range of 10 to 27pF. I recall Siva made a post in one of the FE threads about C34 values. He stated that as C34 became larger than 10pF, distortion increased and stability decreased. I believe 27pF was established as the largest acceptable value. He stated he was going to experiment further, but has pretty much disappeared since then. I plan to back away from that highest value back toward the MyRef C value of 10pF, which seemed to yield beautiful sonics without any of the edge I detect from the FE. I don't know if compensation contributed to that quality, so I will experiment to find out for myself and share the results here.
Peace,
Tom E
Dario, The posted BOM has comments on these items. Do you consider this to be the full list of components most likely to effect sound quality? Nothing new? Not sure about C4. I'm just doing this for my stash inventory but I thought I'd post it.
C1, C2
C7
C8
C13
C30
C32
C101
C201
R10
R12
R37
C1, C2
C7
C8
C13
C30
C32
C101
C201
R10
R12
R37
Fine, try them then, IMHO the MK132 will stay, they're a really good choice in R10 (remember orientation suggestion, it's critical).
Amtrans are not much different than Rikens (in fact they're their evolution) so, since you don't like Rikens it's probably a waste ot time and money.
PRPs works well too as shunt, not a bad choice but with a tiny bit of shrillness, I'm curious to read your opinion about them.
In this regard I've a very different position from Siva's one...
IMHO there's no range, but only two compensations: the Rev C one and FE one.
Siva gone further since he had a precise sound goal in mind, like the one he obtained with his LM318 substitutes.
But earing tests are not enough here, you should at least simulate results.
In the beginnig we started with very different values, it sounded really good to both me and Siva but we later discovered that we altered so much the inner working of the amp that we impaired objective performance a lot.
do you have a single-sided version of this my_ref FE? because i find it troublesome for me to diy double-sided pcbs
The design born as double sided to take advantage of ground planes, among other things, so sorry no single sided (or double sided) are available for diy PCBs etching.
But if you want the GB for boards is still open for a few days, see my signature, they cost 22€/pair shipping excluded.