Those look like old 1990-ish GE/RCA. They use the Toshiba-ish heat spreaders, and the color of the plating looks more like RCA than Toshiba. It would be interesting to know what they were - it looks like a decent package. These were probably NOS of some type and reprinted.
So what do you *do* with a box of 5000 20 year old 2N3716's that you pick up for next to nothing? Get out some acetone and your trusty screen printer....
So what do you *do* with a box of 5000 20 year old 2N3716's that you pick up for next to nothing? Get out some acetone and your trusty screen printer....
I did a search of images for these transistors and found that the images for ones with MEXICO fully spelled out in the middle were on websites in the far east. Ones on Western sites had the letters MEX spelled out on a different line. I would be highly suspicious. Definitely time for a test rig to check out the parameters!
It's been established that Goodbuy711 sells counterfeits. For Motorola and ON Semi parts, always use the ON Semi Product Change Notifications to see if the part is even being manufactured after a certain date, and compare the date codes.
ON Semi Product Change Notification 10143, titled "ON LOGOS TO REPLACE MOTOROLA LOGOS ON PACKAGING MATERIALS AND DEVICES" clearly states "ON Semiconductor will begin the changeover from the Motorola logo to the ON Semiconductor logo for packaging materials on May 15, 2000 and for part marking on July 15, 2000. This General Announcement affects all ON Semiconductor part numbers.
Still, Goodbuy711 pushes Motorola marked devices with 2001 date codes, when all of the fabs were marking them with ON Semi logos. See eBay auction 390227662058 for a prime example.
Hope this helps to clear the air - a little digging always helps.
Cheers,
ON Semi Product Change Notification 10143, titled "ON LOGOS TO REPLACE MOTOROLA LOGOS ON PACKAGING MATERIALS AND DEVICES" clearly states "ON Semiconductor will begin the changeover from the Motorola logo to the ON Semiconductor logo for packaging materials on May 15, 2000 and for part marking on July 15, 2000. This General Announcement affects all ON Semiconductor part numbers.
Still, Goodbuy711 pushes Motorola marked devices with 2001 date codes, when all of the fabs were marking them with ON Semi logos. See eBay auction 390227662058 for a prime example.
Hope this helps to clear the air - a little digging always helps.
Cheers,
You keep them informed "Findm,-Keepm
Counterfeits!!!!
60 to 80 percent of all "grey electronics under world" transistors, jfets, mosfets, and various semiconductors produced in Asia and Latin America countries are counterfeits.
The Asian countries pass off high voltage 2N3055s AND MJ2955s as 2N3773 and 2N6609. They pass off 2N3716s and 2N3792s as MJ15003s and 4s.
They produce MPSA06s and 56s, MPS8099s and 8599, and pass them off as any thing that fills the bill for dozens of other transistor types.
We have only to thank NTE. Good idea, bad results.
Philpps Semiconductors sold their JC501 and JC101 production line, to a group in Hong Kong in 1994. They are now passing those transistors off as BC560,550,557,556. And any other BC type in the 45 volt range.
In Thailand, TIP142 and TIP147 are being listed and marked as every darlington TO218 you can dream up.
In Taiwan, what do you call a IRF540 when it is placed in a TO247 case. A IRFP140. The same is true for the IRF640, placed in a TO247 case; a IRFP240. Because we all use SOA, in our designs. So they gamble that we will not push the chip. Most of the time, we do not. But when we do.
Smoke!
Korea got their hands on the 201 and 101 transistor line by Texas Instruments. They are killing us with it. It covers the 30 to 40 volt range.
That is why On Semiconductors and Central are charging so much money for their transistors. Because sooner or later, you will discover that your transistor may be a counterfeit, when you try to push it pass its SOA. And you come up far short of your goal.
Do not get mad with those people, because it is their nature to do those things. If any one out there never been in the US military and live in Korea, Taiwan, the Philippines, or even Thailand. You seen how they build their homes. Most use the bare minimum of material, to mix concrete. Making it useless in about two to three years. But for them, its o.k.
The problem is that they do not care about QA, because they are not willing to take the lost of a bad production run. Or..., to start over.
If 30 to 40 percent of their run test good. SHIP IT!!!!!
Until we get control back, QA enforced and production back into the develop nations, this will continue.
Live and learn
Take Care
Ivey
P.S.
We (The Americans) learn this lesson in Japan, in 1950 and 1951, during the Korean War. It is not a new Fad.
Counterfeits!!!!
60 to 80 percent of all "grey electronics under world" transistors, jfets, mosfets, and various semiconductors produced in Asia and Latin America countries are counterfeits.
The Asian countries pass off high voltage 2N3055s AND MJ2955s as 2N3773 and 2N6609. They pass off 2N3716s and 2N3792s as MJ15003s and 4s.
They produce MPSA06s and 56s, MPS8099s and 8599, and pass them off as any thing that fills the bill for dozens of other transistor types.
We have only to thank NTE. Good idea, bad results.
Philpps Semiconductors sold their JC501 and JC101 production line, to a group in Hong Kong in 1994. They are now passing those transistors off as BC560,550,557,556. And any other BC type in the 45 volt range.
In Thailand, TIP142 and TIP147 are being listed and marked as every darlington TO218 you can dream up.
In Taiwan, what do you call a IRF540 when it is placed in a TO247 case. A IRFP140. The same is true for the IRF640, placed in a TO247 case; a IRFP240. Because we all use SOA, in our designs. So they gamble that we will not push the chip. Most of the time, we do not. But when we do.
Smoke!
Korea got their hands on the 201 and 101 transistor line by Texas Instruments. They are killing us with it. It covers the 30 to 40 volt range.
That is why On Semiconductors and Central are charging so much money for their transistors. Because sooner or later, you will discover that your transistor may be a counterfeit, when you try to push it pass its SOA. And you come up far short of your goal.
Do not get mad with those people, because it is their nature to do those things. If any one out there never been in the US military and live in Korea, Taiwan, the Philippines, or even Thailand. You seen how they build their homes. Most use the bare minimum of material, to mix concrete. Making it useless in about two to three years. But for them, its o.k.
The problem is that they do not care about QA, because they are not willing to take the lost of a bad production run. Or..., to start over.
If 30 to 40 percent of their run test good. SHIP IT!!!!!
Until we get control back, QA enforced and production back into the develop nations, this will continue.
Live and learn
Take Care
Ivey
P.S.
We (The Americans) learn this lesson in Japan, in 1950 and 1951, during the Korean War. It is not a new Fad.
wg-ski Sorry for your lost.
2N3716s and the 2N3792 are a great pair. If you got some REAL ones, I will buy them from. I need about 6 pairs. But they must say JAN2N3716 and JAN2N3792.
In 1964, we designed a audio amplifier to be used with the sound powered phone system on Naval ships. To increase the signals when talking from long distances on the ship or noisy spaces like engine rooms. It was placed on ships in 1966 on ward.
Nearly every 3716 or 3792, was made by RCA or Motorola that was used by the military. Production stopped in 1989. All those that followed would be counterfeits, if sold as date codes pass that time period. I have one Jan pair.
That transistor had a very very low failure rate. They were good! But never take off in the HI FI world because of their cost.
I fear what you have is transistor that I came across in two guitar amplifiers I worked on. Heathkit TA-16 and a Univox model.
Take Care
Ivey
2N3716s and the 2N3792 are a great pair. If you got some REAL ones, I will buy them from. I need about 6 pairs. But they must say JAN2N3716 and JAN2N3792.
In 1964, we designed a audio amplifier to be used with the sound powered phone system on Naval ships. To increase the signals when talking from long distances on the ship or noisy spaces like engine rooms. It was placed on ships in 1966 on ward.
Nearly every 3716 or 3792, was made by RCA or Motorola that was used by the military. Production stopped in 1989. All those that followed would be counterfeits, if sold as date codes pass that time period. I have one Jan pair.
That transistor had a very very low failure rate. They were good! But never take off in the HI FI world because of their cost.
I fear what you have is transistor that I came across in two guitar amplifiers I worked on. Heathkit TA-16 and a Univox model.
Take Care
Ivey
No, I don't have them. I had the opportunity to *buy* them about 10 years ago, but passed on it because I had no earthly idea what I would do with that many low voltage transistors. Put them in 3-deep series-parallel? I'd go broke buying emitter resistors (and drivers, and TO-3 sockets). They were non-JAN, that's why they were cheap. Date codes were in the 70's. I kept 3 or 4 pair and used them in various non-critical projects. The lot probably showed up on E-bay, re-branded, of course.....
"grey market" semiconductors are nothing new. back in the 70's most of the grey market semiconductors were actually original parts bought up by brokers for a discount and sold at a discount.... the only problem (and this is how the brokers got such a sweet deal) is that the parts were QA rejects. it wasn't long before chip manufacturers tightened up their act and recycling the materials in the QA rejects and refusing to sell them at all. that's when counterfeiting really began to gain a foothold in grey market parts
You are right Unclejad613
I am aware as to when the "grey electronics" market started. In fact, it really started back in the mid 1950's when the Europeans were remarking low grade tubes, as American and British made, right after WWII.
Jensen and JBL speakers were so counterfeited in Europe during the 1950's, you were afraid to buy a simple radio.
You know, radios were a hot item in my hey day.
But you must keep one thing in mind. Money talks and b.s., walks. Companies then, as well as today, are not willing to eat their looses. They will follow the line on QA, when they can make the max profit. But when there is a lost involved. They are out to recoup or reduce those looses. They will do what it takes to keep their cost and lost down. If selling their rejects to recyclers; who sell them to someone else, in the vision of making a buck. It will happen. As long as the makers can be protected.
Wg-Ski, I wish those transistors were JAN's. It would be a great buy.
I understand your position on the voltage, yet at 80 Vceo, that is a good transistor. In a Quasi design, it would match the Quad amplifier in sound and quality. In fact it would have been better, because it has low noise switching. So the other half of the waveform would have far less noise.
IN s-p design, it would give good current drive to the speakers.
Take Care
Ivey
I am aware as to when the "grey electronics" market started. In fact, it really started back in the mid 1950's when the Europeans were remarking low grade tubes, as American and British made, right after WWII.
Jensen and JBL speakers were so counterfeited in Europe during the 1950's, you were afraid to buy a simple radio.
You know, radios were a hot item in my hey day.
But you must keep one thing in mind. Money talks and b.s., walks. Companies then, as well as today, are not willing to eat their looses. They will follow the line on QA, when they can make the max profit. But when there is a lost involved. They are out to recoup or reduce those looses. They will do what it takes to keep their cost and lost down. If selling their rejects to recyclers; who sell them to someone else, in the vision of making a buck. It will happen. As long as the makers can be protected.
Wg-Ski, I wish those transistors were JAN's. It would be a great buy.
I understand your position on the voltage, yet at 80 Vceo, that is a good transistor. In a Quasi design, it would match the Quad amplifier in sound and quality. In fact it would have been better, because it has low noise switching. So the other half of the waveform would have far less noise.
IN s-p design, it would give good current drive to the speakers.
Take Care
Ivey
I recently purchased some MJ15003/4s from goodbuy711, and they were a bit suspicious, some of the MJ15003s had slightly different packaging than the others. They were marked with date 9915, though. I proceeded to test them a bit by applying 3A current through them, voltage being 50V, and they were just fine. Considering thermal derating, at least they are fairly close to originals in performance even if they are fakes, as the datasheet says that safe operating area is about 5A @ 50V. Assuming 0.5K/W thermal resistance between case and heatsink, case temperature would be around 100C, meaning that their maximum dissipation at that temperature is 140W-150W, which was the power applied!
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YES THAT SOUNDS OUTSTANDING.
I BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE MISSING OUR POINT.
ALLOW ME TO CLEAR UP ANY LOOSE ENDS.
A 2N3716, WILL BEHAVE LIKE A MJ15003, UP TO A POINT. BY PERFORMING STATIC TEST OF A TRANSISTOR ON A BENCH WITH DC VOLTAGE, WILL NOT TELL YOU MUCH; FOR ITS ABILITY TO HANDLE HUGE AC SIGNALS WITH A LOAD..., DRAWING A LARGE CURRENT DEMAND. BECAUSE ONCE YOU REACH THE LIMITS OF THE 2N3716, THINKING THAT YOU CAN DRIVE IT LIKE A MJ15003. IT MAY FAIL.
THE MJ15003, IS A 2N3716 ON JET FUEL. BUT BUILT UP. IT IS DESIGN TO HANDLE THE HEAVY CURRENT AND LOAD DEMANDS. LOOK AT THEIR SPECS.
SO SINCE THEY ARE ABOUT THE SAME. JUST RE MARK IT AS A MJ15003. AND SELL IT.
UNLESS THE PERSON IS PUTTING IT IN A CAR AMP TO DRIVE 2 OHM LOADS, AS A GHETTO BLASTER. MOST OF THE TIME IT WILL BE WITHIN ITS SOA.
BUT LETS SAY YOU GOT THE REAL MCCOY. GOOD FOR YOU.
THAT IS THE POINT WE ARE TRYING TO MAKE.
TAKE CARE
IVEY
I BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE MISSING OUR POINT.
ALLOW ME TO CLEAR UP ANY LOOSE ENDS.
A 2N3716, WILL BEHAVE LIKE A MJ15003, UP TO A POINT. BY PERFORMING STATIC TEST OF A TRANSISTOR ON A BENCH WITH DC VOLTAGE, WILL NOT TELL YOU MUCH; FOR ITS ABILITY TO HANDLE HUGE AC SIGNALS WITH A LOAD..., DRAWING A LARGE CURRENT DEMAND. BECAUSE ONCE YOU REACH THE LIMITS OF THE 2N3716, THINKING THAT YOU CAN DRIVE IT LIKE A MJ15003. IT MAY FAIL.
THE MJ15003, IS A 2N3716 ON JET FUEL. BUT BUILT UP. IT IS DESIGN TO HANDLE THE HEAVY CURRENT AND LOAD DEMANDS. LOOK AT THEIR SPECS.
SO SINCE THEY ARE ABOUT THE SAME. JUST RE MARK IT AS A MJ15003. AND SELL IT.
UNLESS THE PERSON IS PUTTING IT IN A CAR AMP TO DRIVE 2 OHM LOADS, AS A GHETTO BLASTER. MOST OF THE TIME IT WILL BE WITHIN ITS SOA.
BUT LETS SAY YOU GOT THE REAL MCCOY. GOOD FOR YOU.
THAT IS THE POINT WE ARE TRYING TO MAKE.
TAKE CARE
IVEY
HOW MUCH DID YOU LAY OUT FOR THOS MJ15003/4s?
I NEED SOME GOOD OLD TRANSISTORS. 2N3716 AND 2N3792 OR 2N3773 AND 2N6609.
IT IS VERY UPSETTING TO ME THAT I CAN NOT FIND THE TRANSISTORS THAT I DESIRE WITHOUT A HIGH PRICE TAG ATTACH TO THEM.
I DESIRE 2N3773 AND 2N6609. I CAN FIND THE 2N3773 AT GOOD BARGAIN PRICES. BUT THE 2N6609. OH NO...., NOW I AM LOOKING AT ABOUT $4.00 A POP IF I WANT THE 2N6609. AND IF I BUY THE BARGAIN 2N3773 FROM ONE BROKER AND 2N6609 FROM ANOTHER. THEY WILL NOT MATCH!!!
EVEN MOUSER IS PLAYING THAT PNP/NPN GAME WITH THEIR SELL OF THEIR POWER TRANSISTORS. ONE IS ALWAYS HIGHER THAN THE OTHER.
I HAVE A MARANTZ 2535 RECEIVER, THAT HAS SEEN ITS LAST DAYS. ALL THE FINALS ARE TOASTED. BUT THOSE OLD 2SC AND 2SA ARE NO LONGER AVAILABLE. A GOOD TRANSISTOR FOR THAT UNIT IS THE 2N3716 AND 2N3792. I COULD USE TIP33 AND 34 FLAT PAKS, BUT I WILL PASS ON THAT.
I WILL REMOVE THE POWER AMPS AND PUT THEM INTO A BEAUTIFUL DESIGN PA/RECORDING UNIT FOR MY GRANDSON'S ROCK BAND, NEXT YEAR.
TAKE CARE
IVEY
I NEED SOME GOOD OLD TRANSISTORS. 2N3716 AND 2N3792 OR 2N3773 AND 2N6609.
IT IS VERY UPSETTING TO ME THAT I CAN NOT FIND THE TRANSISTORS THAT I DESIRE WITHOUT A HIGH PRICE TAG ATTACH TO THEM.
I DESIRE 2N3773 AND 2N6609. I CAN FIND THE 2N3773 AT GOOD BARGAIN PRICES. BUT THE 2N6609. OH NO...., NOW I AM LOOKING AT ABOUT $4.00 A POP IF I WANT THE 2N6609. AND IF I BUY THE BARGAIN 2N3773 FROM ONE BROKER AND 2N6609 FROM ANOTHER. THEY WILL NOT MATCH!!!
EVEN MOUSER IS PLAYING THAT PNP/NPN GAME WITH THEIR SELL OF THEIR POWER TRANSISTORS. ONE IS ALWAYS HIGHER THAN THE OTHER.
I HAVE A MARANTZ 2535 RECEIVER, THAT HAS SEEN ITS LAST DAYS. ALL THE FINALS ARE TOASTED. BUT THOSE OLD 2SC AND 2SA ARE NO LONGER AVAILABLE. A GOOD TRANSISTOR FOR THAT UNIT IS THE 2N3716 AND 2N3792. I COULD USE TIP33 AND 34 FLAT PAKS, BUT I WILL PASS ON THAT.
I WILL REMOVE THE POWER AMPS AND PUT THEM INTO A BEAUTIFUL DESIGN PA/RECORDING UNIT FOR MY GRANDSON'S ROCK BAND, NEXT YEAR.
TAKE CARE
IVEY
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2N6609 (as such) has been discontinued a long time. The only way you're getting a 2N6609 is to buy an MJ15004 from an On-Semi distributor. Then the 'cheap' 3773's might not match, so you'll be buying 15003's as well. For a while, they were 'making' 2N6031's which were the same die with different guaranteed specs (less SOA, switching time fully characterized) but they're not offering that anymore either.
I think they pretty much expect everyone to replace all predecessor parts with the MJ15024/5 pair anyway.
Times are a changing
I am sorry, but you are mistaken.
On Semi, makes the 2N6609 and the 2N3773 , and they are sold at Newark Electronics. At nearly $4.00 a pop. And the MJ15024 and 25 are beef up, beef up, 2N3055's and Mj2955's.
I have all of MJ15000 types of transistors. But believe me. They have treble up the butt. Lots of hard switching and the only way to get rid of it is to design it out.
That is too many parts. So back to the old transistors and soft switching. Where the mid ranges just slide on in and mellow out the mood.
Yamaha made the A-1, I purchase one and hated it, until it broke. I used every MJ15000 transistor there was. Then I put in 2N3773 and 2N6609.
And I love it. Gave it to my child, and she shorted the outputs!!!
Look, they are trying to make us walk to their drummer. Companies move their old stuff overseas where they make them there.
Ford makes two to four year old model cars in Brazil, the Germans make the Bugs overseas in South America. And I can not get one imported in. Dang EPA.
Here is a secret. You can go to the Philippines and purchase all the vacuum tubes you want or need; in ten minutes. And only spend $200.00 US.
Taiwan, in the port city of Keelung, you can get electronic parts for pennies on the dollar. And have a 'Public Storage" box full of goodies.
But here, everything is marked up, marked up, and marked up some more.
Yes, we can get what ever we want. But at a price.
Compared to me, you are young, but allow me to say this.
The frogs in Washington has destroyed our lives. They do not protect our jobs or our families. Tariffs are so low, that imports out strip exports by 17%. We support the Euro, which is worthless, by pumping funds into the European Unions banks. Their debt is so huge, it completes with space.
Greece, Spain, Italy, Ireland, and Eastern Europe countries, are so deep in debt, they lie to us and each other.
Do you really think that the Euro rebounded back from the dead in just two months. There was no funds to support it. Germany stripped everything in its inventory to keep it afloat. And it was still failing.
We provided the sauce to sweeten the pie, by lowering our tariffs and pumping funds into EU's banks. Europe did nothing to help.
They must know in Europe, that we love them. I mean "we really love them". We would rather suffer, than to sit by and watch them destroyed.
Relatives! You got to love them. Because we will protect the "Mother land", the "Father land", and merry old England. No matter the cost.
"Some where..., out there. Beyond the deep blue sea. My transistors are out there, simply..., waiting..., for me".
I will be spending $10.00 for a pair of transistors, instead of $4.00. If I want them. Is that not the question.
If I want them.
Take Care
Ivey
I am sorry, but you are mistaken.
On Semi, makes the 2N6609 and the 2N3773 , and they are sold at Newark Electronics. At nearly $4.00 a pop. And the MJ15024 and 25 are beef up, beef up, 2N3055's and Mj2955's.
I have all of MJ15000 types of transistors. But believe me. They have treble up the butt. Lots of hard switching and the only way to get rid of it is to design it out.
That is too many parts. So back to the old transistors and soft switching. Where the mid ranges just slide on in and mellow out the mood.
Yamaha made the A-1, I purchase one and hated it, until it broke. I used every MJ15000 transistor there was. Then I put in 2N3773 and 2N6609.
And I love it. Gave it to my child, and she shorted the outputs!!!
Look, they are trying to make us walk to their drummer. Companies move their old stuff overseas where they make them there.
Ford makes two to four year old model cars in Brazil, the Germans make the Bugs overseas in South America. And I can not get one imported in. Dang EPA.
Here is a secret. You can go to the Philippines and purchase all the vacuum tubes you want or need; in ten minutes. And only spend $200.00 US.
Taiwan, in the port city of Keelung, you can get electronic parts for pennies on the dollar. And have a 'Public Storage" box full of goodies.
But here, everything is marked up, marked up, and marked up some more.
Yes, we can get what ever we want. But at a price.
Compared to me, you are young, but allow me to say this.
The frogs in Washington has destroyed our lives. They do not protect our jobs or our families. Tariffs are so low, that imports out strip exports by 17%. We support the Euro, which is worthless, by pumping funds into the European Unions banks. Their debt is so huge, it completes with space.
Greece, Spain, Italy, Ireland, and Eastern Europe countries, are so deep in debt, they lie to us and each other.
Do you really think that the Euro rebounded back from the dead in just two months. There was no funds to support it. Germany stripped everything in its inventory to keep it afloat. And it was still failing.
We provided the sauce to sweeten the pie, by lowering our tariffs and pumping funds into EU's banks. Europe did nothing to help.
They must know in Europe, that we love them. I mean "we really love them". We would rather suffer, than to sit by and watch them destroyed.
Relatives! You got to love them. Because we will protect the "Mother land", the "Father land", and merry old England. No matter the cost.
"Some where..., out there. Beyond the deep blue sea. My transistors are out there, simply..., waiting..., for me".
I will be spending $10.00 for a pair of transistors, instead of $4.00. If I want them. Is that not the question.
If I want them.
Take Care
Ivey
assuming the voltage and current specs were within reason, what about junction capacitances and Hfe?? a 20% increase in junction capacitance can be the difference between and amplifier and an oscillator... Hfe and junction capacitances interact with each other in the form of Ft and Miller capacitance. junction capacitance is proportional to the die size (which affects the current capability of the device) and inversely proportional to the Vceo of the device. you could also check the Hfe at various currents. differences in processes have an effect on the Hfe droop. while there are many simple tests that can be done to detect a counterfeit device, some of the fakes require a curve tracer to detect these days. access to an X-ray machine would also be a helpful tool..
Maybe you had fakes. Real 3773/6609's were darn hard to destroy. Shorting the speaker wires normally wouldn't do it.
Those capacitances varied a lot, some had 3.4nF, the one I tested had 2nF and some had as small as 300pF. This would indeed indicate that they are fake. I measured the one with 300pF capacitance, and it survived 2A @ 65V. However, they had quite different Hfe, I did this experiment by simply putting a 2.2k resistor between Vcc and base. One problem I found with this one was that I was unable to get the current above 6A, even when using 100 ohm resistor and 30V voltage.
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