theNoid: "by most accounts" refers to the opinions of others, it doesn't imply personal experience at all. I could very rightly say something like "by most accounts, Antarctica is a very cold place" and be absolutely correct despite never having been there myself.
So in fact azrix did NOT say what you seem to think he said. He is saying that many of the people who have heard both speakers report that the Soundlabs are better, but he never claims to have heard them both himself. You misunderstood him.
Of course coldness, just like the sound of speakers, is subjective (surely the penguins don't find Antarctica cold or they would leave) and anybody is welcome to have a different opinion. But it seems to me we have better things to do around here than quote back and forth and try to pick apart each other's choice of words to make our points.
So in fact azrix did NOT say what you seem to think he said. He is saying that many of the people who have heard both speakers report that the Soundlabs are better, but he never claims to have heard them both himself. You misunderstood him.
Of course coldness, just like the sound of speakers, is subjective (surely the penguins don't find Antarctica cold or they would leave) and anybody is welcome to have a different opinion. But it seems to me we have better things to do around here than quote back and forth and try to pick apart each other's choice of words to make our points.
Variac said:
Agreed, but first I should apologize for my brainfart. I misread it and that is all that happened, sorry folks. It just happens to many times in many of my hobbies that someone will say that they own "A" because it's better than "B", but then we find out that they haven't had any experience with "B".
Once again, I apologize to all whom have read my posts here and found them to be a negative blow, especially azrix.
Noidster
theNoid said:
Agreed, but first I should apologize for my brainfart. I misread it and that is all that happened, sorry folks. It just happens to many times in many of my hobbies that someone will say that they own "A" because it's better than "B", but then we find out that they haven't had any experience with "B".
Once again, I apologize to all whom have read my posts here and found them to be a negative blow, especially azrix.
Noidster
It's no problem. I was going for brevity and may have misstated slightly. I was merely trying to raise awareness about another brand. If Audiophilenoob is going to go through the trouble of setting up an appointment to audition the Martin Logan Statement E2's, I thought he might like to know about something else that's comparable and arguably better. That's all I was trying to do. I apologize if anyone else misread my previous post. I hope this is all settled now 😀 .
Ben.
Hezz
I just saw your Post #30 :
“Another important feature for the best midrange and midbass performance is that the midbass driver be critically or nearly critically damped. Even though this driver is not reaching down low this still effects the transient response of the driver. Therefore, if the midbass driver cannot be critically damped in the enclosure size that it has then it should be aperiodically loaded.”
I know about aperiodic loading, but how do you critically damp a midrange, eg one covering 120 – 2500 Hz?
By a sealed box of appropriate size?
And how is that preferable to aperiodic loading?
Thanks
Richard
I just saw your Post #30 :
“Another important feature for the best midrange and midbass performance is that the midbass driver be critically or nearly critically damped. Even though this driver is not reaching down low this still effects the transient response of the driver. Therefore, if the midbass driver cannot be critically damped in the enclosure size that it has then it should be aperiodically loaded.”
I know about aperiodic loading, but how do you critically damp a midrange, eg one covering 120 – 2500 Hz?
By a sealed box of appropriate size?
And how is that preferable to aperiodic loading?
Thanks
Richard
speaker comparisons
Audiophilenoob, maybe I missed it but when you listened to the Line Array, how close where you to the speaker. I am building one and I already know that the nearfield will extend to between 16 to 20 feet before the farfield takes over. If you sit too close to these big beasts you could possibly be hearing lobbing affects etc. I am just curious, I have no interest in the Macs but the epiphany's and other line arrays have gotten good reviews in the Absolute sound etc but the reviewers always sit back a good distance. thanks, dave
Audiophilenoob, maybe I missed it but when you listened to the Line Array, how close where you to the speaker. I am building one and I already know that the nearfield will extend to between 16 to 20 feet before the farfield takes over. If you sit too close to these big beasts you could possibly be hearing lobbing affects etc. I am just curious, I have no interest in the Macs but the epiphany's and other line arrays have gotten good reviews in the Absolute sound etc but the reviewers always sit back a good distance. thanks, dave
azrix said:
I tried... the closest one is 800 miles away in boston...
since these I've heard the Maxx II's and the Avalon Eidilion Diamonds
neither was all that impressive however the Maxx II's did best the watt puppy's... the diamonds were really just lackluster IMO
Re: speaker comparisons
the problem with the mac's is not the problem with line arrays
but I was in a theater around 15-25feet back
what was wrong with them... besides the atrocious efficency was the incredbily hot top end...
in fact I've confrim sense this that the top end is boost or leveled around 3db louder from 2khz on...
it really wears your ears out... and was the cause for my eternal hatred for these speakers
daly2k said:
the problem with the mac's is not the problem with line arrays
but I was in a theater around 15-25feet back
what was wrong with them... besides the atrocious efficency was the incredbily hot top end...
in fact I've confrim sense this that the top end is boost or leveled around 3db louder from 2khz on...
it really wears your ears out... and was the cause for my eternal hatred for these speakers
Classé
You are absolutely right, that's my experience too.
And hey, B&W recommends Classé.
cowanrg said:
You are absolutely right, that's my experience too.
And hey, B&W recommends Classé.
Re: Classé
they dont necessarily "recommend" classe, but they kinda bought the rights to distribute the line, so they promote it.
however, the higher-ups have been informed of the issues with sound quality (compared with everything else out there) and they are working to improve it.
the national classe rep and an equity rep (equity is the distribution company for rotel, B&W, classe) were invited here by myself to demo their stuff in a real-world environment. their assessment, back to the drawing board. they just werent at all impressed and they admitted it.
most of the stuff getting trashed in this thread is actually good stuff, its just a moronic demo by a stupid salesman. or, a poorly put together system in a bad room... the mac speakers are pretty dull on the top end. BUT, line arrays, being that they throw out a lot of sound, can sound really harsh and overly bright if the room is too reflective.
carlosfm said:
You are absolutely right, that's my experience too.
And hey, B&W recommends Classé.
they dont necessarily "recommend" classe, but they kinda bought the rights to distribute the line, so they promote it.
however, the higher-ups have been informed of the issues with sound quality (compared with everything else out there) and they are working to improve it.
the national classe rep and an equity rep (equity is the distribution company for rotel, B&W, classe) were invited here by myself to demo their stuff in a real-world environment. their assessment, back to the drawing board. they just werent at all impressed and they admitted it.
most of the stuff getting trashed in this thread is actually good stuff, its just a moronic demo by a stupid salesman. or, a poorly put together system in a bad room... the mac speakers are pretty dull on the top end. BUT, line arrays, being that they throw out a lot of sound, can sound really harsh and overly bright if the room is too reflective.
Hi Audiophilenoob,
Have you had a chance to listen to many other speakers?
After seeing the prices, I made a decision to stay around the $2,500 CDN mark..... that would be what, $500 USD? 😀
Anyhow, I settled on PSB Stratus Golds. I don't care for the metal domes much, but they aren't too bad. Comments?
-Chris
Have you had a chance to listen to many other speakers?
After seeing the prices, I made a decision to stay around the $2,500 CDN mark..... that would be what, $500 USD? 😀
Anyhow, I settled on PSB Stratus Golds. I don't care for the metal domes much, but they aren't too bad. Comments?
-Chris
anatech said:
just the Maxx II's and the Avalon Eidilion Diamond...
Maxx II was pretty nice... something about the top end just didn't seem right (this was after hearing my first ribbon tweeter so take that as you will)
Eidilions reminded me of the BW 800... lifeless, dull, ringy speakers that left me glad I don't have more money than sense 😉 the eton woofer though was pretty nice... give or take...
$40,000 nice??? no
Re: Re: Classé
these demos were with fantastic rooms and equipment besides the ML summit... that was in a bad room...
I HAVE an FR plot of the Mc XRT29 in an anechoic chamber and it's EXACTLY as I described... 3db level give or take after around 1.5khz... in fact there's a reviewer from a magazine that points this out as well!
this is at the 5th ranked hifi dealer in the USA...
all of these speakers were generally lackluster... the Wilson lines were ok... I've since revisited this dealer and took a listen again after completing my speakers... it's a local dealer on 30min drive... this place has some of the NICEST rooms I've ever seen... and it's HUGE and only has audio equipment... all of these rooms are way nicer and larger than what I can muster at this point for myself... most of them look to be speciality built...
also I heard the BW 800 in 3 sepearte rooms off 3 seperate amp systems at 2 seperate dealers... same exact sound... the Avalon and MaxxII was at two COMPETELY seperate places from all of this... and completely SEPERATE amp systems
the Sophias are terrible... the grace I gave them before is very obviously not worthy
puppy's are ok... ML is even more unimpressive... and BW 800 is unlistenable...
I brought my QSC 2450 last time for the Magnepan 20.1's and took off those POS $20,000 Mark Levinson mono blocks... and they sounded signifcantly better... dealer thought I was insane
I would put them at 3rd right now:
MaxxII
Puppy 7's
Magnepan 20.1..
however I was feeding them around 300w per side to get them nice and good sounding
just so you know though... if these things had no resale value (meaning I couldn't just sell them) I wouldn't take any of them for free unless to give to friends
I would not take a single one of them... for free... for myself
cowanrg said:
these demos were with fantastic rooms and equipment besides the ML summit... that was in a bad room...
I HAVE an FR plot of the Mc XRT29 in an anechoic chamber and it's EXACTLY as I described... 3db level give or take after around 1.5khz... in fact there's a reviewer from a magazine that points this out as well!
this is at the 5th ranked hifi dealer in the USA...
all of these speakers were generally lackluster... the Wilson lines were ok... I've since revisited this dealer and took a listen again after completing my speakers... it's a local dealer on 30min drive... this place has some of the NICEST rooms I've ever seen... and it's HUGE and only has audio equipment... all of these rooms are way nicer and larger than what I can muster at this point for myself... most of them look to be speciality built...
also I heard the BW 800 in 3 sepearte rooms off 3 seperate amp systems at 2 seperate dealers... same exact sound... the Avalon and MaxxII was at two COMPETELY seperate places from all of this... and completely SEPERATE amp systems
the Sophias are terrible... the grace I gave them before is very obviously not worthy
puppy's are ok... ML is even more unimpressive... and BW 800 is unlistenable...
I brought my QSC 2450 last time for the Magnepan 20.1's and took off those POS $20,000 Mark Levinson mono blocks... and they sounded signifcantly better... dealer thought I was insane
I would put them at 3rd right now:
MaxxII
Puppy 7's
Magnepan 20.1..
however I was feeding them around 300w per side to get them nice and good sounding
just so you know though... if these things had no resale value (meaning I couldn't just sell them) I wouldn't take any of them for free unless to give to friends
I would not take a single one of them... for free... for myself
i just dont want to discredit your findings, but all the speakers you rated, ive heard over the course of YEARS, several times. im definately not saying that they are all amazing. certainly some of them are not so great, not nearly as good as the price would suggest. BUT, your findings seem to suggest that spending more than $5k on a pair of speakers means you will get good looking junk.
some of the high-end stuff is disappointing, but some of it is just sublime. i havent heard a word on meridian, i dont remember anything on sonus fabre's top lines (maybe you did mention it, i cant remember), what about MBL, joseph audio, kharma, etc.... there are MILLIONS out there.
some of the high-end stuff is disappointing, but some of it is just sublime. i havent heard a word on meridian, i dont remember anything on sonus fabre's top lines (maybe you did mention it, i cant remember), what about MBL, joseph audio, kharma, etc.... there are MILLIONS out there.
cowanrg said:
I gave my opinions on the easily locatable ones for me... there is no Kharma around here
I need to take a few hrs and listen to some lynn and aerials from this same dealer that had all the others... they just don't have the reputation all of these speakers have so the others were of the most interest to me
the Magnepan 20.1 is called the greatest loudspeaker ever created by more than one reviewer etc... and for $20,000 I expected a LOT
for many of these speakers... like the BW 805... that's EXACTLY what you get... good looking junk! it was unlistenable
I say for the wilson you get ugly looking... decent sound
for the Maxx II... even uglier looks for pretty nice sound...
the Mac XRT28 or w/e... is a joke IMO... I could not even listen to that speaker for more than 1 song ... it was just retarded sounding... I hated it in every way, from the bass to the midrange to the highs... it's not even that good looking
the eidilions are very pretty speakers... one of the tops... and at $40k a pair... I expected near bliss from them... but found nothing...
I even told the dealer that they sounded flat, dull and subdued.... the music sounded masked like it was deep within the speaker itself... very locatable sound as well... I wouldn't call it junk... but it's not better than the BW 800 in sound
I guess the problem now is I will compare of these to what I own... which was around what these speakers RETAIL at completely finished ... but I spent that much on JUST the speaker portion and box materials
the Wilson X-2 has < $3000 worth of speakers in it... so as far as parts costs go... my speaker over whelm them...
maybe there's a fundamental difference that I can't overcome until I go to the most insane lines of speaker products...
I'd like to hear a passlabs rushmore though
Wilsons
I went to a What Hi-Fi exhibition in bristol, england a few years back and the Wilson speakers impressed me the most. They were just bookshelf ones too! What a bass I thought!
I had some Quad esl and a B&W ASW3000 subwoofer at the time.
Would like to hear some floorstandings models of theres.
I went to a What Hi-Fi exhibition in bristol, england a few years back and the Wilson speakers impressed me the most. They were just bookshelf ones too! What a bass I thought!
I had some Quad esl and a B&W ASW3000 subwoofer at the time.
Would like to hear some floorstandings models of theres.
cowanrg said:
Maxx II without a doubt... it actually had some good qualities and the music was pretty transparent into the room
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