sdclc126 said:
Agreed, me and Feandil build speakers and enjoy arguing over seemingly pointless topics.
Ask him about the time we ripped 'The Force' linearray to bits and then quized the designer about his choices.
Or maybe that good old competitive streak in both of us that leads us to pushing our designs further.
Its a debate about why commercial speaker suck and its all good fun so why don't you lighten up.
ShinOBIWAN said:
Well you've just made my point for me. Debate? Yes. Discuss? Yes. Argue? No. If you enjoy that do it offline. And "...so why don't you lighten up" is the kind of wording I'm taking issue with. That's not what this forum is for and is an abuse of the priviledges we have here.
Guys, debate or argue about speakers all you want. That distinction is semantic. Debating or arguing about one another is counterproductive and rules-breaking. Please keep to the topic.Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Classé
Shin... I swear I'm correct... not only do I notice my g/f has noticed that many man songs ripped just aren't acceptable for playback
I can hear the difference... night and day... 400kp is a little hard to hear... but when I have both of them perfect and compressed I can hear JUST a tad of it
I think partially it has to do with efficency to be honest...
256 is a joke at this point... not a single one of my rips are even remotely usable
ShinOBIWAN said:
Shin... I swear I'm correct... not only do I notice my g/f has noticed that many man songs ripped just aren't acceptable for playback
I can hear the difference... night and day... 400kp is a little hard to hear... but when I have both of them perfect and compressed I can hear JUST a tad of it
I think partially it has to do with efficency to be honest...
256 is a joke at this point... not a single one of my rips are even remotely usable
In my experience, most of the best speakers can be described that way. They just play the music and nothing jumps out at you as being "impressive." Some speakers are voiced to get your attention -- they aren't faithfully reproducing the music but they sure are "impressive" after a quick listen. Not liking the Avalons (finding them boring or whatever) tells me either the setup was terrible (possible but unlikely) or someone needs to educate his ear a bit.
PS - MP3 bitrates? Huh? Haven't you guys discovered FLAC yet?
catapult said:
In my experience, most of the best speakers can be described that way. They just play the music and nothing jumps out at you as being "impressive." Some speakers are voiced to get your attention -- they aren't faithfully reproducing the music but they sure are "impressive" after a quick listen. Not liking the Avalons (finding them boring or whatever) tells me either the setup was terrible (possible but unlikely) or someone needs to educate his ear a bit.
PS - MP3 bitrates? Huh? Haven't you guys discovered FLAC yet?
I know all about flac... it's a simple test I like to test speakers... use middle of the road bitrates and listen for details about the bad quality to come out... not a single BW did it... not at all actually... not even a tiny bit...
in fact none of them pointed out any differences between the 256kb and the CD...
the differences by comparison with these speakers is so dramatic I can't really even listen to any Mp3's at all
Educate my ear?
sure... I mean yea... I don't KNOW what I like... I must educate myself
the Avalon's were better than the BW's... but nothing to glorify about
speakers being "lackluster" doesn't mean they were "so good I have nothing to talk about"... in fact it's the exact opposite... they were SO BAD... that I have a nearly ENDLESS supply of things to talk about... negatively
the ceramic dome midrange is easily one of the harshest tonally bright things I've ever heard... not detailed... harsh... there's a big difference...
sdclc126 said:
We do on other forums and over on here, I can't see why anyone get's offended since the first person to cry foul really should be Feandil if he felt like. When you start a controversial thread such as slating of big name and big bucks speakers expect controversial replies.
The conversation was a two way dialogue between my and Feandil, I really wasn't bothering in anyone else.
I'll appologise to keep the peace if you took offence.
Eh? Whats this you typed a few post up from that one:
sdclc126 said:
Kinda ironic wouldn't you say? Is it always a one street for you?
Lets get back to debating/arguing over stuff that's related to audio rather petty and pointless knocking.
Audiophilenoob said:
This test had serious flaws, then.
But hey, you know everything and you have your reason above all, so there's no use.
I'm now asking myself why did you open this thread, as you won't accept anyone's oppinions, specially from those that KNOW very well some of the speakers that you vaguely heard.
Did you open this thread to say that you heard some expensive speakers?
Cool.
ShinOBIWAN said:
agreed...
I'm curious to talk of who likes all these speakers and why...
I'm also curious if I'm correct that my design is on a different level than any of the storebought's I've auditioned, or if it's just "different" tastes
I'm not certain how someone could listen to these and think "meh it's just different tastes... I like MINE better"
maybe someone genuinely thinks that though and I'm really curious why I don't really like anything but some of the wilsons and ML's and even then the like is certainly not a love
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Classé
No problems, just went against what I'd experienced.
I used to have a load mp3's and infact my entire collection of CD's was ripped in this manner at 256kps-360kps. However around two years ago I deleted and re-ripped virtually all my collection when harddrives became ridiculously cheap and it was feasible to store a large collection of lossless and uncompressed music.
We don't have the same setup though and TBH I have very few mp3's at all now compared to EAC, APE, WAV and FLAC rips of my CD collection. But the mp3's I do have are all high bit rate though which is around 360kbs all the low ones were deleted.
I've never knowingly compared mp3 vs. bit perfect but then again I've never heard any of the differences whilst playing, maybe you have to be looking for it, unless your using low bit rate mp3's? Like I said I rarely play them, all my favourite stuff is lossless or uncompressed.
I think I'd have noticed something though with the Grado's because they were very revealing - best can's I've heard. Shame they don't have any sense of scale, bass weight or soundstaging Great cans do make a good reference for tweaking a speaker though.
Audiophilenoob said:
No problems, just went against what I'd experienced.
I used to have a load mp3's and infact my entire collection of CD's was ripped in this manner at 256kps-360kps. However around two years ago I deleted and re-ripped virtually all my collection when harddrives became ridiculously cheap and it was feasible to store a large collection of lossless and uncompressed music.
We don't have the same setup though and TBH I have very few mp3's at all now compared to EAC, APE, WAV and FLAC rips of my CD collection. But the mp3's I do have are all high bit rate though which is around 360kbs all the low ones were deleted.
I've never knowingly compared mp3 vs. bit perfect but then again I've never heard any of the differences whilst playing, maybe you have to be looking for it, unless your using low bit rate mp3's? Like I said I rarely play them, all my favourite stuff is lossless or uncompressed.
I think I'd have noticed something though with the Grado's because they were very revealing - best can's I've heard. Shame they don't have any sense of scale, bass weight or soundstaging
Great cans do make a good reference for tweaking a speaker though.
Hi Audiophilenoob,
Lambda driver were recommended to be run in for quite a while before their suspensions 'relaxed' (right word?) enough. My first pair do sound better than when I first put them in their current boxes. Mind you, I prefer to run them in at the same time as listening to them - so if they don't sound good at the start, than I generally won't bother.
And I'm not a fan of running in amplifiers, but I do think they sound a bit better after they've warmed up for 10 minutes or so (A, A/B or B class).
My $0.02 - I'm still trying to get back that feeling when I thought Laurie Anderson was singing in a room at an audio demo - and found out it was some Apogee speakers (Duettas, maybe?). I still haven't had that same epiphany again - but I'm still looking
Lambda driver were recommended to be run in for quite a while before their suspensions 'relaxed' (right word?) enough. My first pair do sound better than when I first put them in their current boxes. Mind you, I prefer to run them in at the same time as listening to them - so if they don't sound good at the start, than I generally won't bother.
And I'm not a fan of running in amplifiers, but I do think they sound a bit better after they've warmed up for 10 minutes or so (A, A/B or B class).
My $0.02 - I'm still trying to get back that feeling when I thought Laurie Anderson was singing in a room at an audio demo - and found out it was some Apogee speakers (Duettas, maybe?). I still haven't had that same epiphany again - but I'm still looking
Feandil does the Maxx 2 use the SS R2904-7000? Or is is a custom job?
I noticed you said the top end had something that was annoying or wrong. Care to elaborate? Not going to bite your hand off so please be honest. As you know I use these myself and whilst I love them it would be a good way to gauge how your preferences my differ to mine.
My own thoughts are that it sounds poor with an XO of around 2Khz or lower. I spent ages tweaking my design and eventually found that it sounded much better at 3.1Khz. Its among the most sensitive of domes/ring rad at 94.5dB so it does go loud and depending on what XO point you choose, it can go very loud.
Its a somewhat dissappointing design for many folks because when you spend $450 on a tweeter they rightly expect it to cross at 2Khz and maybe 1.5Khz for some. Hobby hifi published distortion specs for the 7000 and whilst the figures were exceptional and virtually unbeaten at 3Khz+, at 2Khz a fair few tweeters would best them easily for much much less ie. $30 Seas 29TBFC/G! Bear in mind I'm talking about distortion figures here.
Really its best in a 3-way with a higher XO moved out of the critical midrange. This works wonderfully for me but do you know where Wilson crossed theirs?
EDIT: What am I on about? I don't know either since the Maxx 2 uses an inverted titanium dome - focal origin maybe?
EDIT2: I see, its used in the Alexandria X-2 as a supertweeter, did you ever hear these BTW?
I noticed you said the top end had something that was annoying or wrong. Care to elaborate? Not going to bite your hand off
so please be honest. As you know I use these myself and whilst I love them it would be a good way to gauge how your preferences my differ to mine.My own thoughts are that it sounds poor with an XO of around 2Khz or lower. I spent ages tweaking my design and eventually found that it sounded much better at 3.1Khz. Its among the most sensitive of domes/ring rad at 94.5dB so it does go loud and depending on what XO point you choose, it can go very loud.
Its a somewhat dissappointing design for many folks because when you spend $450 on a tweeter they rightly expect it to cross at 2Khz and maybe 1.5Khz for some. Hobby hifi published distortion specs for the 7000 and whilst the figures were exceptional and virtually unbeaten at 3Khz+, at 2Khz a fair few tweeters would best them easily for much much less ie. $30 Seas 29TBFC/G! Bear in mind I'm talking about distortion figures here.
Really its best in a 3-way with a higher XO moved out of the critical midrange. This works wonderfully for me but do you know where Wilson crossed theirs?
EDIT: What am I on about? I don't know either since the Maxx 2 uses an inverted titanium dome - focal origin maybe?
EDIT2: I see, its used in the Alexandria X-2 as a supertweeter, did you ever hear these BTW?
ShinOBIWAN said:
Yes, Wilson uses Focal tweeters, some are custom made for Wilson and are more sensitive than Focal's own.
ShinOBIWAN said:
I've heard them last week at an audioshow, one of the worst places to judge a pair of speakers.
Can't say much about them, they only played elevator music.
One thing that I didn't like at all is that the speakers are too tall, midband and treble are much above normal sitting listening position and are very localized.
Unless you listen to them really very far away, with a very big room.
I was right in the middle of them, some 5 meters away and didn't like it at all.
ShinOBIWAN said:Feandil does the Maxx 2 use the SS R2904-7000? Or is is a custom job?
I noticed you said the top end had something that was annoying or wrong. Care to elaborate? Not going to bite your hand off
My own thoughts are that it sounds poor with an XO of around 2Khz or lower. I spent ages tweaking my design and eventually found that it sounded much better at 3.1Khz. Its among the most sensitive of domes/ring rad at 94.5dB so it does go loud and depending on what XO point you choose, it can go very loud.
Its a somewhat dissappointing design for many folks because when you spend $450 on a tweeter they rightly expect it to cross at 2Khz and maybe 1.5Khz for some. Hobby hifi published distortion specs for the 7000 and whilst the figures were exceptional and virtually unbeaten at 3Khz+, at 2Khz a fair few tweeters would best them easily for much much less ie. $30 Seas 29TBFC/G! Bear in mind I'm talking about distortion figures here.
Really its best in a 3-way with a higher XO moved out of the critical midrange. This works wonderfully for me but do you know where Wilson crossed theirs?
EDIT: What am I on about? I don't know either since the Maxx 2 uses an inverted titanium dome - focal origin maybe?
EDIT2: I see, its used in the Alexandria X-2 as a supertweeter, did you ever hear these BTW?
the Maxx 2 doesn't use it...
the X-2 has it for ambience...
the top end has this one point... in a few songs where you would get a transient through the midrange (well generally this is were my lambda's cover around this area, however in the Maxx 2 this is covered over 2 speakers)
the particular guitar transient in this green day song swept and I could TELL where the sound was coming from... like locate the top speakers... it really wasn't acceptable... nothing occured for me like that on my system
The bass section was overpronounced and all around boomy... there was a point I felt that the top end could be further extended... especially off axis... there was a loss of detail on the extremes of the top end... (you know that ambience of just the ultrasonics you can hardly hear)
overall detail was there... but it failed the CD/MP3 test just as badly as all the rest... not to mention they took some power to get loud... I would say 50w-100w a side
overall they impressed... and were inviting speakers... but just not what I would consider "without improvement"
I like my tweeters around 2-2.5khz HPF... maybe 3khz if the midrange keeps SQ... anything below say 1.8khz and I will nearly instantaneously find fault in the top end... it just isn't natural to my ears... and I've heard and tried it with some great components like the Seas Millenium among others
it is a focal tweet and all the rest is SS IIRC
Cloth Ears said:Hi Audiophilenoob,
Lambda driver were recommended to be run in for quite a while before their suspensions 'relaxed' (right word?) enough. My first pair do sound better than when I first put them in their current boxes. Mind you, I prefer to run them in at the same time as listening to them - so if they don't sound good at the start, than I generally won't bother.
And I'm not a fan of running in amplifiers, but I do think they sound a bit better after they've warmed up for 10 minutes or so (A, A/B or B class).
My $0.02 - I'm still trying to get back that feeling when I thought Laurie Anderson was singing in a room at an audio demo - and found out it was some Apogee speakers (Duettas, maybe?). I still haven't had that same epiphany again - but I'm still looking
I dunno I asked john about this quite awhile ago and he encourages that there is no audible change whatsoever...
I'm not really concerned much... if the sound gets a lot better than this I don't know what I will do with myself
I would like to hear some apogees.... they use all ribbons correct?
the apogee's are pretty cheap:
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1134836634
I dunno... I would like to hear them for sure... that's about 3x less than I spent on these speaks
Oops, sorry, I forgot. You're the guy who was raving about the SQ of his DIY "McIntosh" line arrays before he even had the crossovers wired up. Obviously you have an exceptionally golden ear to know what something sounds like before you've heard it and nothing anyone could say here would be of any value to you.
catapult said:
UMMMMMM yea... sure... no the xovers were hooked up... I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about
actually those speakers sounded better than the real mac's...
question w/e you want... I never said those speakers were BW worthy...
again people try to discredit vs. give reasoning
Audiophilenoob said:
John? I bought mine from Nick a few years ago - is Lambda up and running again under new management?
And I haven't managed to track down any Apogees in Aus since that day (which I thought was most unusual at an audio show). I was a bit put off by the price, which was over $10000 in the late 80's. I've been quite enamoured of the folded ribbon in my Elacs - which is a few feet long despite taking up only 3cm x 3cm (1-1/2").
P.S. Always interesting to read your posts (even if I don't necessarily agree;-).
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