audiophilenoob,
you need to stop focusing so much on numbers, FR plots, etc... its not what audio is about... i have a pair of 803D's in my bedroom (dont ask), and i can show you the FR graph of THAT speaker (not the line, but of that actual speaker) from the anechoic chamber. and guess what, it looks like it was drawn with a ruler. now, you SHOULD like that speaker, because you like flat right? well, you hate B&W's, go figure.
and just because halcro is expensive, doesnt mean its good. and just because it doesnt sound good with X speaker, doesnt mean its bad. as carlosfm points out, some amps work better with certain speakers. and also, some rooms work better with certain speakers.
some transports and cd players sound identical with some speakers, but sound better/worse with others. its all about matching components and getting synergy. if you dont believe this, you havent built/listened to/owned enough systems. you can build a system with identical components and put it in one room and then put it in another with IDENTICAL dimensions and it can sound completely different. there are many more factors involved. you are trying to make it seem like you could break out a calculator or a spreadsheet to determine if a speaker will sound good or not.
and burn-in is enormous. i hate to once again tell you about my years of experiences, but most of the speakers you demoed, i have PERSONALLY unboxed them and set them up on many occassions. i have personally setup the entire B&W lineup for customers and i can say without hesitation that they always sounded terrible (unlistenable) the first week. i could come back to their house and it would sound much better. still not my taste, but a significant change.
and you keep coming back to this idea that you know so much more than a dealer. "i laughed hysterically", etc. who are you to say such things? you are just "some guy" on an audio forum that identifies himself as an audiophile noob. you have no basis to be making such claims about established companies.
im just getting really frustrated in this thread because you arent using an open mind at all. you heard what you wanted to hear. when you started the thread, maybe even before you went to demo these systems, you had your mind made up, and were full of assumptions that were not open to change.
you need to stop focusing so much on numbers, FR plots, etc... its not what audio is about... i have a pair of 803D's in my bedroom (dont ask), and i can show you the FR graph of THAT speaker (not the line, but of that actual speaker) from the anechoic chamber. and guess what, it looks like it was drawn with a ruler. now, you SHOULD like that speaker, because you like flat right? well, you hate B&W's, go figure.
and just because halcro is expensive, doesnt mean its good. and just because it doesnt sound good with X speaker, doesnt mean its bad. as carlosfm points out, some amps work better with certain speakers. and also, some rooms work better with certain speakers.
some transports and cd players sound identical with some speakers, but sound better/worse with others. its all about matching components and getting synergy. if you dont believe this, you havent built/listened to/owned enough systems. you can build a system with identical components and put it in one room and then put it in another with IDENTICAL dimensions and it can sound completely different. there are many more factors involved. you are trying to make it seem like you could break out a calculator or a spreadsheet to determine if a speaker will sound good or not.
and burn-in is enormous. i hate to once again tell you about my years of experiences, but most of the speakers you demoed, i have PERSONALLY unboxed them and set them up on many occassions. i have personally setup the entire B&W lineup for customers and i can say without hesitation that they always sounded terrible (unlistenable) the first week. i could come back to their house and it would sound much better. still not my taste, but a significant change.
and you keep coming back to this idea that you know so much more than a dealer. "i laughed hysterically", etc. who are you to say such things? you are just "some guy" on an audio forum that identifies himself as an audiophile noob. you have no basis to be making such claims about established companies.
im just getting really frustrated in this thread because you arent using an open mind at all. you heard what you wanted to hear. when you started the thread, maybe even before you went to demo these systems, you had your mind made up, and were full of assumptions that were not open to change.
cowanrg said:
trust me this entire thread isn't about FR...
however what I'm saying is that the "bass heavy" sound of the Wilsons and the hot highs from the mac's... can be verified from FR's
sure BW might be flat as a ruler... it's just not a very good SOUNDING speaker to me
in fact my speakers now probably wouldn't measure flat in a chamber... BUT the components mate SO well that it's impossible to hear any differences in character... EVER...
the BW is not to my tastes for a lot of reasons... reasons others might find them wonderful (though they really were muddy sounding... I don't really see how someone can like these)...
I am to say dealer's are hysterical... because I swapped those cables out for zipcord... to the dealers utter anger... and it sounded... yea you guessed it... IDENTICAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! $31,500 = $10... and it wasn't the transparency cables fault it was "my untrained ears and that if I bought them I would not be able to go back"
contact spacemonkey, he works for a high end store as well for many many years... his blind ABX testing just destroys these ideas that:
"who are you to say this or that?"
"you know someone might HEAR THAT LITTLE DIFFERENCE"
no... it's simply not true for 99.9999999999999999999999% of people...
he's also done testing on preamps of every type from $100-$20000 and guess what??? yea that's right EVERYONE fails those tests...
he generally likes electronic side most of all... cause it has the most voodoo
the BW are poor performers ... at least to my tastes... lackluster at best...
there are a lot bigger noobs on here that claim to be experts... I have something called humility and give my honest opinions
I hate to bring THIS up a again... but here's just an example of my "noobness":
http://feandil.tripod.com/finished_pics/index.album?i=4&s=1
not many people know how to hand build ribbon tweeters... etc...
but again lets be humble here
audiophilenoob,
I'm with you mate, hate rip-offs. I don't say that other's can't percieve differences between cables, interconnects etc. but I cannot.
Burn-in can change the sound but marginally. IMHO, it could also be because one's ears get accustomed to the sound after some time.
Recently, I did not like the sound of my newly finished speaker the day it was completed (actually I redesigned the enclosure, the driver was well burnt-in); the next day, presto, it was enjoyable. I may sound like a dud but I've liked it ever since.
Well, high-end manufacturers have to make a living and so do the reviewers.
Francis
I'm with you mate, hate rip-offs. I don't say that other's can't percieve differences between cables, interconnects etc. but I cannot.
Burn-in can change the sound but marginally. IMHO, it could also be because one's ears get accustomed to the sound after some time.
Recently, I did not like the sound of my newly finished speaker the day it was completed (actually I redesigned the enclosure, the driver was well burnt-in); the next day, presto, it was enjoyable. I may sound like a dud but I've liked it ever since.
Well, high-end manufacturers have to make a living and so do the reviewers.
Francis
Re: Re: Re: Classé
B&W is good with NAD period.their xover is all over the place no image no fluidity no dynamics no music.
and I don't like NAD
OHH and heard also all the the 7 and the 8 with 100w MC'Intosh and my daughter can color better then that,it was like hearing my washing machine in the middle of the stage.to poorly built for me.
carlosfm said:
B&W is good with NAD period.their xover is all over the place no image no fluidity no dynamics no music.
and I don't like NAD
OHH and heard also all the the 7 and the 8 with 100w MC'Intosh and my daughter can color better then that,it was like hearing my washing machine in the middle of the stage.to poorly built for me.
Audiophilenoob said:
trust me this entire thread isn't about FR...
however what I'm saying is that the "bass heavy" sound of the Wilsons and the hot highs from the mac's... can be verified from FR's
sure BW might be flat as a ruler... it's just not a very good SOUNDING speaker to me
in fact my speakers now probably wouldn't measure flat in a chamber... BUT the components mate SO well that it's impossible to hear any differences in character... EVER...
the BW is not to my tastes for a lot of reasons... reasons others might find them wonderful (though they really were muddy sounding... I don't really see how someone can like these)...
I am to say dealer's are hysterical... because I swapped those cables out for zipcord... to the dealers utter anger... and it sounded... yea you guessed it... IDENTICAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! $31,500 = $10... and it wasn't the transparency cables fault it was "my untrained ears and that if I bought them I would not be able to go back"
contact spacemonkey, he works for a high end store as well for many many years... his blind ABX testing just destroys these ideas that:
"who are you to say this or that?"
"you know someone might HEAR THAT LITTLE DIFFERENCE"
no... it's simply not true for 99.9999999999999999999999% of people...
he's also done testing on preamps of every type from $100-$20000 and guess what??? yea that's right EVERYONE fails those tests...
he generally likes electronic side most of all... cause it has the most voodoo
the BW are poor performers ... at least to my tastes... lackluster at best...
there are a lot bigger noobs on here that claim to be experts... I have something called humility and give my honest opinions
I hate to bring THIS up a again... but here's just an example of my "noobness":
http://feandil.tripod.com/finished_pics/index.album?i=4&s=1
not many people know how to hand build ribbon tweeters... etc...
but again lets be humble here
was that model working well I mean for the mids tweets and bass to be like one?
cowanrg said:
Just curious. In the 803D FR plot, how did the phase response look? What kind of smoothing did they do on the data? What was the SPL scale? It sure would be interesting to see it.
I went to a local Hi End HiFi show a few months ago, and I heard very few systems that sounded realistic, but could be enjoyed. So when someone likes or dislikes a system, it's necessary to understand what point of view they have, enjoyable or realistic.
Just recently I went to a local recording studio, and they praised a certain pair of Yamaha speakers that had been discontinued. I listened to it for a while, and I understood what they were listening for, just a neutral and balanced tone. Imaging, transients, dynamics, were not the consideration.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Classé
Your saying there isn't an audible difference between an average solidstate and average SET amps?
What about 20w class A vs. 1000w class D? Current delivery? Triamping?
There's a load of differences between electronics. I'm not justifying £20k for a pair of monoblocks or anything like that but there's differences between amps both measureable and audible.
Audiophilenoob said:
don't worry I've heard it all...
however every time someone FINALLY submitts to a Blind ABX test they always fail
a well built op amp source will sound identical to the most expensive Linn products
ask spacemonkey over at CAF about ALL the DBABX's he's done... he also happens to be one of the biggest skeptics on audibility between the cheap and expensive... especially in the electronics side
Your saying there isn't an audible difference between an average solidstate and average SET amps?
What about 20w class A vs. 1000w class D? Current delivery? Triamping?
There's a load of differences between electronics. I'm not justifying £20k for a pair of monoblocks or anything like that but there's differences between amps both measureable and audible.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Classé
To make one point, you did mention that the Maxx II was the most impressive commercial speaker you heard. Then you say that it's the one with the 10dB spike.
Thus, it's not unlikely that someone would think that you would like peaky unnatural bass, since that's the characteristic you designate to Wilson products.
P.
Audiophilenoob said:
To make one point, you did mention that the Maxx II was the most impressive commercial speaker you heard. Then you say that it's the one with the 10dB spike.
Thus, it's not unlikely that someone would think that you would like peaky unnatural bass, since that's the characteristic you designate to Wilson products.
P.
Audiophilenoob said:
Well, then let me tell you that what you've heard is really nasty.
Two days (or even a week) is not enough for most B&W speakers.
Now I understand, I know what you've heard there.
What surprizes me is that those guys sell those speakers and they don't know this.
It's basic for everyone who sells them and knows them.
Speaker burn-in depends very much on the drivers' construction, and even the crossovers' caps.
For some speakers a couple of days is enough, and for some speakers the difference when brand new to fully burn-in is very small.
Others are very bad when new, and take much longer time.
And I don't know any B&W speaker that sounds good out of the box, from the cheaper ones to the most expensive ones.
Specially their tweeters, they take very long to start sounding at their best.
cowanrg said:
I've just noticed this excellent post.
cowanrg, we are many miles away from each other and we could be here posting our experience (which is of course identical) until our fingers hurt, but that's no use.
There's no use against a blind faith on an incompetent, amateur distributor.
I'm sure you've figured that out by now too, but don't tell.
carlosfm said:
look carlos
I'm not here to argue with you... but you can not sit here and tell me 48 solid hrs of playing transients isn't enough to "break in" a speaker
EVEN if you SOMEHOW were correct... and this "masterful" sound came out after far more "burn in" (which is questionable to exist in the first place) these speakers were at LEAST 3 mths old and got listened to every day...
I went back 3 mths after this orginial post... and guess what? sounded the freaking same... same speakers too
to be honest I'm not willing to put my faith in ANYTHING you say about these speakers as I've heard them... 5 different speakers... 3 seperate places... and they ALWAYS sounded bad... being the BW 805's have the most atrocious sound of all
if you don't like this tough... IMO nothing can reconcile the BW sound to me or my friend... they are just not good sounding speakers
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Classé
triamping the difference is dynamics
however a Class D has other issues
now a 50w Class A/B and a 50w Class A (gasp I own both of these...) do not sound different... what about my 1200w Class H? NOPE no difference... I'm not going to fool myself... there isn't any difference between the $7000 Class A, LM4780's or the pro amp... zero... and this is on 100db/w speakers
my chip amps sound identical on my speakers... which happen to be the only speakers EVER I have heard (well seeing as I've only heard storebought) to point out flaws in 400kb ripped Mp3's ... I used the same demo CD on all the speakers I heard... and these...
the only thing that sounds good on these babies is straight CD rips and DVD-A... (no I haven't tried vinyl nor care)
the watt puppies, Maxx II, BW 800 etc etc etc... ALLL sounded fine with my CD of 256kb Mp3's... these... are unlistenable with that low of quality... truly atrocious and sinful...
with CD quality though the BW sounded the same as with the 256kb... (I always do this little test... it's really interesting for pointing out detail) ... half of my music collection isn't ripped CD's...around 4000 songs... so now because of this level of detail on my current speakers... I have to completely wipe it out and buy CDs...
had I bought the watt puppys, BW 800 etc etc this would not have been the case...
I'm both happy and ****ed
ShinOBIWAN said:
triamping the difference is dynamics
however a Class D has other issues
now a 50w Class A/B and a 50w Class A (gasp I own both of these...) do not sound different... what about my 1200w Class H? NOPE no difference... I'm not going to fool myself... there isn't any difference between the $7000 Class A, LM4780's or the pro amp... zero... and this is on 100db/w speakers
my chip amps sound identical on my speakers... which happen to be the only speakers EVER I have heard (well seeing as I've only heard storebought) to point out flaws in 400kb ripped Mp3's ... I used the same demo CD on all the speakers I heard... and these...
the only thing that sounds good on these babies is straight CD rips and DVD-A... (no I haven't tried vinyl nor care)
the watt puppies, Maxx II, BW 800 etc etc etc... ALLL sounded fine with my CD of 256kb Mp3's... these... are unlistenable with that low of quality... truly atrocious and sinful...
with CD quality though the BW sounded the same as with the 256kb... (I always do this little test... it's really interesting for pointing out detail) ... half of my music collection isn't ripped CD's...around 4000 songs... so now because of this level of detail on my current speakers... I have to completely wipe it out and buy CDs...
had I bought the watt puppys, BW 800 etc etc this would not have been the case...
I'm both happy and ****ed
Why are people taking these issues with Noob? I have read a lot of his posts and he seems to be very well qualified to make the comments he has made here. He has also designed and built some very impressive loudspeakers, something that should speak for itself, and something many of us cannot yet lay claim to.
This thread has degraded into an argument, and I don't see much usefulness for that in a forum designed to share helpful information. People have their opinions and their reasons for having those opinions - leave it at that.
However you feel about a particular commercial product, what we do here is try to build something as good as or better for a lot less money.
Lighten up!
This thread has degraded into an argument, and I don't see much usefulness for that in a forum designed to share helpful information. People have their opinions and their reasons for having those opinions - leave it at that.
However you feel about a particular commercial product, what we do here is try to build something as good as or better for a lot less money.
Lighten up!
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Classé
You can't hear any difference between any amps yet you can hear the difference between 400kbs mp3 and a straight CD rip.
Dude, I had a pair of Grado RS1 can's lent me from a friend. I played 360kps mp3's and bit perfect lossless rips. Couldn't hear any difference on the Grado's and I guarantee they'll rip *any* speaker a new one when it came to detail.
You can probably remember the thread here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60655&highlight=
Audiophilenoob said:
You can't hear any difference between any amps yet you can hear the difference between 400kbs mp3 and a straight CD rip.
Dude, I had a pair of Grado RS1 can's lent me from a friend. I played 360kps mp3's and bit perfect lossless rips. Couldn't hear any difference on the Grado's and I guarantee they'll rip *any* speaker a new one when it came to detail.
You can probably remember the thread here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60655&highlight=
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