Wowie!
I've been following your progress with great interest. Many of us on this forum have built nice ESL's too but I think the craftsmanship in yours is really exceptional. Congratulations on an incredible effort--- your speaker is GORGEOUS and I can only imagine that it sounds as good as it looks.
Charlie
I've been following your progress with great interest. Many of us on this forum have built nice ESL's too but I think the craftsmanship in yours is really exceptional. Congratulations on an incredible effort--- your speaker is GORGEOUS and I can only imagine that it sounds as good as it looks.
Charlie
Calvin said:
Agree that what most hear is inferior integration and most esl Hybrids
exhibits such ...
Also funny to see poor time and phase aligned systems along with Sealed mono pole bass drivers for a dipole ESL.
When most refer to Speed are they talking about rise time , acoustic phase or polar response ? 8 inch woofer will differ significantly to say 12 or 15 inch woofers with integration to any ESL or ribbon panel . Ideally both types would be required for proper integration and low distortion.
First of all, SM7UYJ it just jooks great 
What bass driver is it you use?
My 10 cent about bass responce:
Most people talk about which allignmant, enclosure type, driver etc. to use.
In my experience, what is most importnat about good bass sound is actually the room. All small rooms suffer from room modes in the bass. (this is of course also trye for large rooms, but in large rooms there will be a greater number of room modes, spreading out the "problem" and giving a more flat freq response).
In many cases I think that peoples view of e.g. reflex speakers has more to do with room modes, as this speaker type gives much more and normally deeper bass, which will go down to the first room modes, giving a boomy one note bass response. Therefore many people like smaller closed constructions that simply produces less bass.
Un treated room modes, will tend to have a much longer decay time that any bass speaker construction.
Bass "line arrays", OB and multiple subs, will tend to invoke more room modes which will flatten the response, and therfore sound much better (less one note).
I have done a lot to my listening room, treating room modes, and can only say that this is a much more efficient way to improve bass than anything else.
Anyway, listen to some of the Martin Logans. I think they have made some very good integration of the bass, using closed constructions, separate eq and amp.
SM7UYJ, looking very much forward to hear more about your project. Great stuff 🙂
Best regards Baldin
What bass driver is it you use?
My 10 cent about bass responce:
Most people talk about which allignmant, enclosure type, driver etc. to use.
In my experience, what is most importnat about good bass sound is actually the room. All small rooms suffer from room modes in the bass. (this is of course also trye for large rooms, but in large rooms there will be a greater number of room modes, spreading out the "problem" and giving a more flat freq response).
In many cases I think that peoples view of e.g. reflex speakers has more to do with room modes, as this speaker type gives much more and normally deeper bass, which will go down to the first room modes, giving a boomy one note bass response. Therefore many people like smaller closed constructions that simply produces less bass.
Un treated room modes, will tend to have a much longer decay time that any bass speaker construction.
Bass "line arrays", OB and multiple subs, will tend to invoke more room modes which will flatten the response, and therfore sound much better (less one note).
I have done a lot to my listening room, treating room modes, and can only say that this is a much more efficient way to improve bass than anything else.
Anyway, listen to some of the Martin Logans. I think they have made some very good integration of the bass, using closed constructions, separate eq and amp.
SM7UYJ, looking very much forward to hear more about your project. Great stuff 🙂
Best regards Baldin
Hello Baldin ,
The new martin logans are currently the best they have done with relation to there Hybrid integration and are not as horrendous and or poorly aligned as past setups, that aside they still do have issues with integration and lack coherency , IMO.........
The new martin logans are currently the best they have done with relation to there Hybrid integration and are not as horrendous and or poorly aligned as past setups, that aside they still do have issues with integration and lack coherency , IMO.........
Hi,
I disagree with the above. Past setups have been far better not only acoustically (which could be regarded as a mater of taste) but also technically. The best solution could be found within the design of the Statement II where the issue had been solved in probabely the best possible technical way, followed by the Prodigy, with their independantely driven drivers which led to a non-global distribution character of the bass.
The actual models are a big step back to the eighties with optics and marketing dominating the design rather than matters of acoustics. The integration of bass and panel of a Summit for example is rather non-existent. Neither the distribution character nor the filter curvature of the crossovers allow for a seamless integration of the bass and panel.
jauu
Calvin
I disagree with the above. Past setups have been far better not only acoustically (which could be regarded as a mater of taste) but also technically. The best solution could be found within the design of the Statement II where the issue had been solved in probabely the best possible technical way, followed by the Prodigy, with their independantely driven drivers which led to a non-global distribution character of the bass.
The actual models are a big step back to the eighties with optics and marketing dominating the design rather than matters of acoustics. The integration of bass and panel of a Summit for example is rather non-existent. Neither the distribution character nor the filter curvature of the crossovers allow for a seamless integration of the bass and panel.
jauu
Calvin
Tnx for all kind words about my speakers! 🙂
I got my electronics mounted in the first speaker this evening.
Wires will be routed better - this is just for testing!
Hope to get my second one done tomorrow so I finaly can listen to them in stereo!
/R
I got my electronics mounted in the first speaker this evening.
Wires will be routed better - this is just for testing!
Hope to get my second one done tomorrow so I finaly can listen to them in stereo!
/R
Calvin said:
Hello Calvin ,
I guess you missed the part where i said they all had horrible integration 🙄
also comparing the statement to the summit is not reasonable , regardless they all have integration problems and none , including the statement have every sounded Coherent.
I still stand by my original statement that the new Hybrids sound better than what was being sold before , gone is that bright , glaring over pretentious sound from previous hybrid models .
Hi SM7UYJ,
nice work !
1. Yor midrange panel is quite large in width, so you need to cross over at very low frequency to the tweeter. My guess is, that you will see heavy interference at 800 to 1000 Hz between mid and tweeter
2. Your tweeter should be able to handle down to 600 Hz, if you have the option get it linear with EQ-compensation.
3. In order to minimize interferende effects, the tweeter panel should be placed towards the inside of the listening position.
Capaciti
nice work !
1. Yor midrange panel is quite large in width, so you need to cross over at very low frequency to the tweeter. My guess is, that you will see heavy interference at 800 to 1000 Hz between mid and tweeter
2. Your tweeter should be able to handle down to 600 Hz, if you have the option get it linear with EQ-compensation.
3. In order to minimize interferende effects, the tweeter panel should be placed towards the inside of the listening position.
Capaciti
At last I can listen to them in stereo - and it was a BIG difference!
Just running the woofer and the big ESL panel right now, but the plot is good up to 20k so I'll try this for a couple off days.
X-over is at 200Hz.
/R
Just running the woofer and the big ESL panel right now, but the plot is good up to 20k so I'll try this for a couple off days.
X-over is at 200Hz.
/R
They are beautiful. Congratulations!
I know it is a silly question to ask the person who makes them. Anyway, how do they sound? Do you think they are worth your effort?
Wachara C.
I know it is a silly question to ask the person who makes them. Anyway, how do they sound? Do you think they are worth your effort?
Wachara C.
I have not listened to them so much as they were finished in the middle of the night!
But the little I have heard, has left a smile on my face! 🙂
The stereo image is almost spooky- I taught my large "Billy" dipoles were good at this, but they don't compare.
As expected, they are extreamly direction sensitive and sweet spot is here after.
The highs are exeptional .I fist taught I had the film hit the stators, but it was bakground noice in the recording - never heard before.
Take this as a comment from the builder and Placebo might very well be involved - time will tell!
But one thing is for sure - I will certanly build more ESLs in my life!
/Roger
But the little I have heard, has left a smile on my face! 🙂
The stereo image is almost spooky- I taught my large "Billy" dipoles were good at this, but they don't compare.
As expected, they are extreamly direction sensitive and sweet spot is here after.
The highs are exeptional .I fist taught I had the film hit the stators, but it was bakground noice in the recording - never heard before.
Take this as a comment from the builder and Placebo might very well be involved - time will tell!
But one thing is for sure - I will certanly build more ESLs in my life!
/Roger
Hi,
I have been following your thread here with great interest.
I have been planning to build a pair of full range ESLs for some time now, and i have settled for a design very similar to yours.
most mechanical parts are sourced and ready for assmbly, but transformers and bias power supply is still in the blue.
can you give some more details on your transformers (make, model, where to buy)?
regards
Bent, Norway
b1t [at] hotmail dot com
I have been following your thread here with great interest.
I have been planning to build a pair of full range ESLs for some time now, and i have settled for a design very similar to yours.
most mechanical parts are sourced and ready for assmbly, but transformers and bias power supply is still in the blue.
can you give some more details on your transformers (make, model, where to buy)?
regards
Bent, Norway
b1t [at] hotmail dot com
At the moment I'm spending more time in my listening chair then in the work shop - been a while science that happened ! 🙂
The speakers are almost finished. I just have to figure out how to make a HP-filter (~500Hz) for the tweeter panels.
Some pictures of the speakers:
Bass is a Veres Audio 1224, previously used in my Billy dipoles.
/R
The speakers are almost finished. I just have to figure out how to make a HP-filter (~500Hz) for the tweeter panels.
Some pictures of the speakers:
Bass is a Veres Audio 1224, previously used in my Billy dipoles.
/R
Update Nr1 is on the way:
New stator plates, powder coated, 3mm holes with 4mm spacing => 16% more open area to the old ones.
Will this time try 3µm film instead of the 4.8µm used before.
I'm not shure if I should split the panel into more cells or not - any sugestions?
/R
New stator plates, powder coated, 3mm holes with 4mm spacing => 16% more open area to the old ones.
Will this time try 3µm film instead of the 4.8µm used before.
I'm not shure if I should split the panel into more cells or not - any sugestions?
/R
Dimensions are the same as before (will use the same frame).
Midpanel 400x1000mm, Tweeter 80x1000mm.
Using 25mm wide tape, 2mm thick for mid and 1mm for the tweeter panels!
/R
Midpanel 400x1000mm, Tweeter 80x1000mm.
Using 25mm wide tape, 2mm thick for mid and 1mm for the tweeter panels!
/R
Yes, it is my soundcard that's the problem!
Here is a loop back sweep.
The microphone is abt 20cm from the panel.
I'll start up my old computer in the lab and se if the soundcard is any better !
/R
im no esl specialist but have read these post as they interest me still.
i have to say that really in all honesty, a drooping response above 18kHz isnt really a problem as id be willing to bet you cant hear that high...and if we want to be all audiophile about things then you may 'percieve' less treble as there will be less intermodulation effects in the HF but really! Whats the fuss about...id rather see a nice flat response, and you have that already...so go figure
sorry meant to quote the response pic not the loop back!!!
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Hi,
I had once an audience listen to a panel that had a upper bandwidth limit of just ~12kHz -used terribly crappy audio trannies- and guess what....they all raved about the great highs ;-)
Made some of them think again about the fuss made around super tweeters when I told them the afterwards 🙂
jauu
Calvin
I had once an audience listen to a panel that had a upper bandwidth limit of just ~12kHz -used terribly crappy audio trannies- and guess what....they all raved about the great highs ;-)
Made some of them think again about the fuss made around super tweeters when I told them the afterwards 🙂
jauu
Calvin
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