Thanks, Mark. Looks like we were typing at the same time.
That's really disappointing about the AE quality control as I had the impression that they are a very trusted brand. But I'm glad to find out before spending so much on their products.
I have a Dayton calibrated USB measurement microphone and know how to use it with REW for measuring frequency response. I still need to learn more about the other types of measurements you can do with REW though.
-Chris
To be completely fair, This is old information. And he was going through some pretty tough times back then.
Now my two cents for the use of a Horn and another driver.
The SEOS Waveguide/Horn (It's deep enough to have some horn effects, and designed very well. So it does have some properties of a horn. As in offers a degree of gain greater than say 3 db in parts of it's passband ( range of frequencies that it can be used to reproduce ).
But if you are using a compression driver that is not up to the task, you will hear a compression driver and it's associated diaphragm breakups. Also described as distortion.
Many people think of the sound of a horn compression driver as crisp, lively.
Not the case in my experience. Nor the case in many peoples ears that I trust as having a good broad understanding of how things actually sound in the flesh.
I have worked with a made some pretty good dome tweeters.
Same goes for AMT's (still working on one that I really can compare to my gold standard)
Gold standard: Planar. They can when done correctly reproduce a very clean sound.
The best I can describe it is when one reviewer was having a private listen at the last RMAF I attended. He basically stated that when he sat down in front of the speakers he thought they had no top end. Lacking any top end sparkle. But, when the program material demanded it they were there shining away as they should. But not irritating.
The truth of the matter was that the driver he was listening to was almost flat to beyond 30khz. And was exceedingly low in distortion. This was in a two way MTM arrangement that I designed for Funk Audio. The large diaphragm planar allowed the correct crossover point between two 8's. Surface area is everything in proper audio reproduction. Surface area coupled with clean useful clean excursion I should say.
Using a Compression driver with a ten or a twelve will be a hamstrung driver complement no matter what you try to do.
And you will only hear the difference when you hear a side by side comparison to a system that is done with a bit more engineering.
And yes I have listened at length to systems that are well respected in the DIY community. They were seriously lacking in refinement. Short but sweet, if I offered a similar design to a client I would not be in audio for very long.
An intermediary driver between the top end and the bass end is what you are after. Be it a 6.5 or a good 5.25, or 5. Smaller again falls into the little driver that could...not range of reproduction.
The SEOS Waveguide/Horn (It's deep enough to have some horn effects, and designed very well. So it does have some properties of a horn. As in offers a degree of gain greater than say 3 db in parts of it's passband ( range of frequencies that it can be used to reproduce ).
But if you are using a compression driver that is not up to the task, you will hear a compression driver and it's associated diaphragm breakups. Also described as distortion.
Many people think of the sound of a horn compression driver as crisp, lively.
Not the case in my experience. Nor the case in many peoples ears that I trust as having a good broad understanding of how things actually sound in the flesh.
I have worked with a made some pretty good dome tweeters.
Same goes for AMT's (still working on one that I really can compare to my gold standard)
Gold standard: Planar. They can when done correctly reproduce a very clean sound.
The best I can describe it is when one reviewer was having a private listen at the last RMAF I attended. He basically stated that when he sat down in front of the speakers he thought they had no top end. Lacking any top end sparkle. But, when the program material demanded it they were there shining away as they should. But not irritating.
The truth of the matter was that the driver he was listening to was almost flat to beyond 30khz. And was exceedingly low in distortion. This was in a two way MTM arrangement that I designed for Funk Audio. The large diaphragm planar allowed the correct crossover point between two 8's. Surface area is everything in proper audio reproduction. Surface area coupled with clean useful clean excursion I should say.
Using a Compression driver with a ten or a twelve will be a hamstrung driver complement no matter what you try to do.
And you will only hear the difference when you hear a side by side comparison to a system that is done with a bit more engineering.
And yes I have listened at length to systems that are well respected in the DIY community. They were seriously lacking in refinement. Short but sweet, if I offered a similar design to a client I would not be in audio for very long.
An intermediary driver between the top end and the bass end is what you are after. Be it a 6.5 or a good 5.25, or 5. Smaller again falls into the little driver that could...not range of reproduction.
Why would you throw out your sub? Just cut them higher and use them as the lowest way of your speakers.
About your choice for mid, i have different opinion about the one from Mark:
as i told you in private the best loudspeakers i've heard is an MTM design based on 2*12" and an horn loaded 1"CD. These are not usual drivers: they are custom made for the designer for the 12" and the 1" CD is modified by the designer (based upon a Beyma unit) and i suppose the 12" cones are treated too.
As i've said to you i've not heard directly the SEOS so i an't speak about them but i've heard some of the newer JBL studio monitor and for me they are quite listenable (even for performing job on them).
I've heard some of the very big system linked in the first page of the thread too (Kinoshita's) and other based upon more or less the same driver units (Boxer's one, some custom ones in big control room, some diy attempts...). I would not say the first thing you note about them is distortion but i agree with Mark comments about distortion with lowcost CD (but you have some very nice drivers which are cheap enough...). And i must confess i dolike very much Tannoy's systems i've heard once theyr diameter is past 12" (DMT 215,DMT15 2, DMT12 2, System 1200).
My experience with AMT is not as good as Marks. I've heard once (briefly) a Beyma in a DIY system but wasn't convinced. After thougths make me think it was more a design problem of the whole system (closed mid to AMT with closed back removed= abrupt directivity behavior change which is quite the situation LineSource talked about) than the amt, so i can't really say more about AMT.
They seems a potential great choice for medium/highs in your system.
As could a coaxial unit be too. Or horn. An other option could be a soft mid(kind of ATC)+tweeter (i must admit that after living with ATC SM110A for some time it's not my taste: i find this kind of combo 'boring' with 'pop music' (including Rock, Electronic, Metal,...) besides all of theyr quality, but for classical music i must reckon they are GREAT).
They re is many possibility and in the end it 'll be your own taste which will matter! You should start to try to listen for this kind of solution Chris and then make a choice about that.
About AE QC things have changed for some years now, and i've heard quite positive things from customers in EU.
as i told you in private the best loudspeakers i've heard is an MTM design based on 2*12" and an horn loaded 1"CD. These are not usual drivers: they are custom made for the designer for the 12" and the 1" CD is modified by the designer (based upon a Beyma unit) and i suppose the 12" cones are treated too.
As i've said to you i've not heard directly the SEOS so i an't speak about them but i've heard some of the newer JBL studio monitor and for me they are quite listenable (even for performing job on them).
I've heard some of the very big system linked in the first page of the thread too (Kinoshita's) and other based upon more or less the same driver units (Boxer's one, some custom ones in big control room, some diy attempts...). I would not say the first thing you note about them is distortion but i agree with Mark comments about distortion with lowcost CD (but you have some very nice drivers which are cheap enough...). And i must confess i dolike very much Tannoy's systems i've heard once theyr diameter is past 12" (DMT 215,DMT15 2, DMT12 2, System 1200).
My experience with AMT is not as good as Marks. I've heard once (briefly) a Beyma in a DIY system but wasn't convinced. After thougths make me think it was more a design problem of the whole system (closed mid to AMT with closed back removed= abrupt directivity behavior change which is quite the situation LineSource talked about) than the amt, so i can't really say more about AMT.
They seems a potential great choice for medium/highs in your system.
As could a coaxial unit be too. Or horn. An other option could be a soft mid(kind of ATC)+tweeter (i must admit that after living with ATC SM110A for some time it's not my taste: i find this kind of combo 'boring' with 'pop music' (including Rock, Electronic, Metal,...) besides all of theyr quality, but for classical music i must reckon they are GREAT).
They re is many possibility and in the end it 'll be your own taste which will matter! You should start to try to listen for this kind of solution Chris and then make a choice about that.
About AE QC things have changed for some years now, and i've heard quite positive things from customers in EU.
I'd like to toss one more site out for reading material... Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design
Sigfried, the originator of the LR crossover architecture is quite a speaker guru himself. Not to derail your search, but Sigfried's methodology is worth reading.
Sigfried, the originator of the LR crossover architecture is quite a speaker guru himself. Not to derail your search, but Sigfried's methodology is worth reading.
Mark Does not like AMT's either.
Why I am still working on designing one that I do like.
Very much a problem of materials applied not in the best manner.
And a copying of the same methods for ever without a real diagnosis of if they are the best methods.
I should have something to show the world in a few months that will be quite an improvement.
Also.
Although I have a healthy dislike for Compression drivers as a whole.
There are a few that sound pretty darn good.
I have spent a few hours in front of a Radian CD with a beryllium diaphragm that is very listenable.
+1
At the very least you have a great explanation as to the why's and how's.
That is the greatest value of the website.
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That's an option but it forces me to leave those big boxes right by the mains, as I have them now. I already know it bugs me to cross my sub over higher than about 70Hz if it's not to the front of me.
-Chris
I would really like to hear what you guys think about the crossover point between a woofer and wave guide. The idea of using beaming to transition the off axis response sounds really good and looks cool on a graph, but I'm just not seeing how it ends up being audibly better than a regular crossover set a little lower.
If we low pass a 12" woofer at 1300Hz, the off axis response will roll off before the on axis. If we low pass a 12" woofer at 1000Hz, both on and off axis response will roll off. But I'm sure off axis will actually roll off faster than on axis as frequency inscreases, because both beaming and the filter will be at work.
So why would the two different crossover points be audibly different in the end?
Thanks,
Chris
If we low pass a 12" woofer at 1300Hz, the off axis response will roll off before the on axis. If we low pass a 12" woofer at 1000Hz, both on and off axis response will roll off. But I'm sure off axis will actually roll off faster than on axis as frequency inscreases, because both beaming and the filter will be at work.
So why would the two different crossover points be audibly different in the end?
Thanks,
Chris
Depends on the WG since the woofer is close enough the same for a given frame size.
WRT to off axis, you generally want the widest power response as practical on axis, so with the woofer collapsing at a 45 deg angle, then ideally the horn will track it and why 90 deg is such a common horn angle.
GM
WRT to off axis, you generally want the widest power response as practical on axis, so with the woofer collapsing at a 45 deg angle, then ideally the horn will track it and why 90 deg is such a common horn angle.
GM
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Yes but you forget waveguide behavior in the equation: what happen to it if you lower the 'optimal' cross over point? Won't it loose ability to maintain directivity behavior? Is there other parameters at work which will be detrimental about soundquality? Like phase shift and acoustical cut off (from the horn design)?
Actually i know one design which do that: it use an horn (not a waveguide!) half an octave lower than it's recomended fc and it is nested in between 2*15" in mtm configuration. CTC distance between drivers and CD is kept in the range below 2/3wl at frequency (good enough for most implementation of this design) and it use the fact that the horn is loosing vertival directivity control to 'fill' the comb filtering from increasing distance between drivers. Filter is not symmetric (different slope for drivers and cd/horn combo).
For what i studied and simulated the design it works because the mtm configuration, hopeless to do the same thing with tw design.
I don't know about waveguide used same way (mtm) but it's an horn afterall and should exhibit same behavior.
My bad Mark: re reading your post i thought the review from the listener about your speakers was about AMT but obviously it's for planar!
I made the assumption we had different point of view because the description about the highs being presents only when needed is in line with what i call 'good system' (this is true for for me at all freq, low end included).
Is it the same one used in the picture with the tiny nearfield loudspeaker previously shown in the thread? 😀
Mark i'm jealous about the fact you have the knowledge to design your own drivers: this is such an advantage over being 'limited' by commercial offers... Being able to design for the box and what you want them to do is GREAT!
Or use your sub as stands for the other box. It'll probably not be as nice as you could think but could be great soundwise.
You'll have to re analyse your room/position and probably re eq them but be prepared to do that kind of things more than once. 😉
I had a quick read about the stuffing thread in subwoofer section of forum so apologize if you already answered the question but which 15" did you used in the sub?
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Hold the woofers in there partner.
If I remember correctly I kind of gave some advice in an optimised bass hinge point.
There is sound musical reasoning and physiological reasoning behind that recommendation.
I thnk you listen to music right?
The greatest bass power in music is below 150 hertz. Kick drum is centered around 120 hertz. And what most people think of as being powerful bass is not much lower than 64 hertz with a great deal of louder higher frequency harmonics.
Why the magic 70 hertz for your largest movers of air?
Just because something get's mentioned a million times on the internet forums does not mean that it is true.
Think this stuff through.
Don't be the fictional lemming that just goes along with the crowd. Figure this stuff out for yourself, or ask people that can make a passing attempt to make some sense!
At times we are even right!
It does allow a different perspective if you have done your homework properly.
As in what should a driver do?
What can you do with a driver?
What does the music require the driver to do?
But. Getting them made is a whole different deal. Quality drivers are expensive to produce in little batches. And I don't see the utility in making more of the same mass produced type of drivers. So once in a while I scrape enough money together to offer some to the public.
It's both interesting and frustrating.
I can design and produce drivers that are truly state of the art.
But it is an expensive endeavour. And one that has no guarantee of payback.
I do it for the DIY guys because I wish I had access to this kind of stuff when I was starting out.
If I remember correctly I kind of gave some advice in an optimised bass hinge point.
There is sound musical reasoning and physiological reasoning behind that recommendation.
I thnk you listen to music right?
The greatest bass power in music is below 150 hertz. Kick drum is centered around 120 hertz. And what most people think of as being powerful bass is not much lower than 64 hertz with a great deal of louder higher frequency harmonics.
Why the magic 70 hertz for your largest movers of air?
Just because something get's mentioned a million times on the internet forums does not mean that it is true.
Think this stuff through.
Don't be the fictional lemming that just goes along with the crowd. Figure this stuff out for yourself, or ask people that can make a passing attempt to make some sense!
At times we are even right!
It does allow a different perspective if you have done your homework properly.
As in what should a driver do?
What can you do with a driver?
What does the music require the driver to do?
But. Getting them made is a whole different deal. Quality drivers are expensive to produce in little batches. And I don't see the utility in making more of the same mass produced type of drivers. So once in a while I scrape enough money together to offer some to the public.
It's both interesting and frustrating.
I can design and produce drivers that are truly state of the art.
But it is an expensive endeavour. And one that has no guarantee of payback.
I do it for the DIY guys because I wish I had access to this kind of stuff when I was starting out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOOs8MaR1YM
One of the classic fool everybody in the 70's "documentary". Much of it was filmed in doors in Edmonton Alberta Canda.
People actually believed this for years!
The comments are hilarious.
I just mentally insert what ever pet idea that comes up on the internet audio forums.
brand X cable
brand X interconnect
never do " "
One of the classic fool everybody in the 70's "documentary". Much of it was filmed in doors in Edmonton Alberta Canda.
People actually believed this for years!
The comments are hilarious.
I just mentally insert what ever pet idea that comes up on the internet audio forums.
brand X cable
brand X interconnect
never do " "
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You talk about recommendation you gave in the 'other thread'? Fully agree with what you say Mark. In fact their is few genre of music which are really asking for sub 50hz. Maybe if your in D&B or electronic dub or industrial music (as i'am 🙂 ).
But even in this electronic music genre not all tracks need this frequency extension...
I think most of the belief in sub 80hz cut off came from THX.
But THX is for a special case, and not nescesseraly music related case!
And the belief that below 80hz bass is not directionnal (well that you can't accurately locate sounds below 80hz i should say)...which in my experience is not true.
Chris i already stated it but i repeat: i don't see the point of 60/70hz cut off for your sub... and i think i'm not alone.
First we talked about Schroeder frequency and the fact that it is room dependent: what this means is that the larger the room the lower it'll happen. In your case i doubt this will happens this low as 70hz (it could but as you are located in US and given building technics used i do think your wall/room won't be bass sealed and given the whole surface of the room -from sketch you gave- it could potentially be in 100hz range more or less...).
Second you could had concern about the capacity of your sub to produce enough spl. A quick look at datasheet say this is not going to be a problem: your Adire are able to withstand high power from amp and for sub are relatively high efficiency: they are not going to be a 'bottleneck' for the dynamic range of your system.
Third as stated by LineSource you'll gain to release your mid bass from (sub) bass duties: overall it'll result in a cleaner sound, much less imd but distortion too. And you'll gain headroom as the drivers will require less movement to produce a given 'target' spl (and with more movement does appears more distortion).
I've had a concern about the Adire to play up to 150hz but datasheet specify up to 300hz so as long as you use clever strategy in filter kind and slope it should not be an issue (even with IIR ones).
Esthetically maybe this will be not as pleasing to keep them as in the pictures you linked... but nothing tells you how your system will be looking at the end! This is part of the fun: you start with an idea which mutate and mutate and at the end it's something different!
But meanwhile you gained lots of knowledge and a system for YOUR needs and YOUR tatse sonicwise. And if you are good in woodworking it can even be very appealing (probably not for now but you'll end up with something nice i'm pretty sure!).
I like the Lemmings video: made me laughing a lot!
Remind me a video game i played when teenager... Revenge they screamed each time they died! Poor Lemings! 😀
Remind me a video game i played when teenager... Revenge they screamed each time they died! Poor Lemings! 😀
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Dayton Audio PM180-8 6-1/2" Wideband Midbass Neo Driver
Yes it has a small voice coil. But look at the efficiency. Under normal use it will be loafing around at a watt or under. And with transients it will only be looking at:
Top graph is in a 4 litre enclosure. Just below X-max. 7 watts into a nominal 8 ohm load. I sized the enclosure smaller for a simple illustrative reason. Sometimes you want a rising response on axis, so that at listening position off axis it sums to the target response.
Call it passive EQ. And it is quite useful once you get a little idea of how it can be applied.
Second graph is a fairly realistic power transient.
And note that with a proper crossover point you are still within the linear area of the driver's suspension.
If I were doing something similar to what you are contemplating here.
The MT is a good idea. It can be used to some degree to steer your directivity. But taking it to a proper three way WMTMW will get you a better overall presentation.
Yes it has a small voice coil. But look at the efficiency. Under normal use it will be loafing around at a watt or under. And with transients it will only be looking at:
Top graph is in a 4 litre enclosure. Just below X-max. 7 watts into a nominal 8 ohm load. I sized the enclosure smaller for a simple illustrative reason. Sometimes you want a rising response on axis, so that at listening position off axis it sums to the target response.
Call it passive EQ. And it is quite useful once you get a little idea of how it can be applied.
Second graph is a fairly realistic power transient.
And note that with a proper crossover point you are still within the linear area of the driver's suspension.
If I were doing something similar to what you are contemplating here.
The MT is a good idea. It can be used to some degree to steer your directivity. But taking it to a proper three way WMTMW will get you a better overall presentation.
I was a kid watching that in the 70's and we all thought poor Lemmings.
It was a Walt Disney production.
They must have pissed themselves laughing when that went on television.
But even then, my little markie brain was asking. Why would they go and commit suicide?
Question, always question. And be willing to look long and hard for the answers. And most importantly be willing to try, and be wrong! THat can sometimes teach a us more than we thought at the beginning.
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