Pano, thanks much for the "long-hand" illumination.
What does the venue management think of the change ( did they even notice )?
🙂
What does the venue management think of the change ( did they even notice )?
🙂
You're welcome. 
So far management hasn't heard them, but to my surprise a number of the actors have commented and like them. I figured they wouldn't even notice. 🙂
Oddly, the mutlicell horns make even the center line-array sound better. Of course that's silly, but maybe it's because.
So far management hasn't heard them, but to my surprise a number of the actors have commented and like them. I figured they wouldn't even notice. 🙂
Oddly, the mutlicell horns make even the center line-array sound better. Of course that's silly, but maybe it's because.
- The Left and Right now better match the center.
- My ears don't hurt from the QSC arrays, making me better able to accept the Renkus-Heinz.
Actually, it's the other way round, so for max height and width control, go 18 cell and if you want more vertical control than horizontal, rotate it so it's 3 cells wide. For a low ceiling you can fake it by making a curved to fit top/bottom and/or side mouth extension to increase its acoustic height and/or width. This of course works for any horn, point source driver, complete speaker, etc..
Those big wings, top and/or bottom cinema horn baffles did a lot more than just brace the speakers and block out light behind the screen, increasing directivity control to a very low frequency plus filling in below the horn's gain BW and the much lower output low tuned vent [for the times].
Nice tutorial and use Keele's formula to figure how big they must be: Understanding Horn Directivity Control
GM
Very interesting note on the directivity! Does that mean, that a 90x60 horn should be actually higher than wider to maintain directivity control in both planes down to the same frequency. Are there any examples of horns built like this?
And when the horn is on a flat baffle - will the baffle help with the directivity or not? I guess only conical part in the correct angle would help.
And as a last question - would a horn lens as seen on the vintage speakers serve also this purpose of extending directivity to the low end?
And when the horn is on a flat baffle - will the baffle help with the directivity or not? I guess only conical part in the correct angle would help.
And as a last question - would a horn lens as seen on the vintage speakers serve also this purpose of extending directivity to the low end?
Thanks for the link GM. I do know that a larger horn mouth helps control the pattern down low, and that can easily been simulated with Hornresp. But for sure the 1005 has a narrow vertical pattern thru much of its bandwidth.
Presently my mix position is about 175 feet from the horns and I sit approximately 10 degrees above center line of the horns. As I aimed the left side horn side a little too low, the difference in what I hear from the left and right is very noticeable. I'm noticeably outside the beam of the left horn. If I descend and sit lower in the audience, I hear details out of the left much better. (need to re-aim that left horn - which is going to be a pain)
Presently my mix position is about 175 feet from the horns and I sit approximately 10 degrees above center line of the horns. As I aimed the left side horn side a little too low, the difference in what I hear from the left and right is very noticeable. I'm noticeably outside the beam of the left horn. If I descend and sit lower in the audience, I hear details out of the left much better. (need to re-aim that left horn - which is going to be a pain)
Multicell and conventional may have differences..
What you say is basically true. They will be deeper too in the vertical dimension. Common rectangular horns are not thorough examples, and are prone to pattern flip if taken too low.
Other than DIY?
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Hi Pano,
Good Stuff!
Over at Hostboard ( in the early years ) there was a poster ( from Australia ) by the name of Murray Keidge ( long since inactive ) who always had interesting observations based on his SR experiences.
Here's a favourite ( quote that stuck in my brain ) regarding using Multicells for outdoor live performance.
🙂
Good Stuff!
Over at Hostboard ( in the early years ) there was a poster ( from Australia ) by the name of Murray Keidge ( long since inactive ) who always had interesting observations based on his SR experiences.
Here's a favourite ( quote that stuck in my brain ) regarding using Multicells for outdoor live performance.
Murray Keidge (from CPC Productions) over a Hostboard said:
🙂
Thanks Earl for the Murray Keidge quote. It's been over 30 years since I've used multi-cell horns outside, so my memory is getting a little rusty. I did briefly run a high fidelity P.A. in France that consisted of Jean Hiraga's Altec A5/1505 rig. I loved it.
This recent change to multi-cell has me convinced. In all the sonic parameters that count (except maybe sheer SPL) they are much superior to anything else I've used.
FWIW, the old sound system in this theater was three Altec A5 with tar filled 1005 horns. Alas updated to more modern gear about 12 years ago.
This recent change to multi-cell has me convinced. In all the sonic parameters that count (except maybe sheer SPL) they are much superior to anything else I've used.
FWIW, the old sound system in this theater was three Altec A5 with tar filled 1005 horns. Alas updated to more modern gear about 12 years ago.
FWIW here are some pics of the Brown Bomber in action. The Altec multicell horns take spray paint very well. 🙂
They fly about 20ft off the stage and throw to the center of the theater is 94 ft.
As far as I've been able to determine, I'm running about 8 volts RMS on the horns (16 ohm) and 28V RMS on the 18" woofers (8 ohm) in the boxes above the horns.
Also included is a photo of the seating area. My mix position is all the way at the top, behind those two closed windows.
They fly about 20ft off the stage and throw to the center of the theater is 94 ft.
As far as I've been able to determine, I'm running about 8 volts RMS on the horns (16 ohm) and 28V RMS on the 18" woofers (8 ohm) in the boxes above the horns.
Also included is a photo of the seating area. My mix position is all the way at the top, behind those two closed windows.
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Thanks for the pics Pano !
I figured you might appreciate the following info ( given your comments within the Cardiod Midrange thread ).
Altec 814a
There are some excellent eBay pics of a pair of 814a's HERE!
Additional info might be available through a patent search ( haven't tried that yet ).
Here are some of the better pics for anyone who might want to try their hand at reverse-engineering this design .
🙂
I figured you might appreciate the following info ( given your comments within the Cardiod Midrange thread ).
Altec 814a
There are some excellent eBay pics of a pair of 814a's HERE!
Additional info might be available through a patent search ( haven't tried that yet ).
Here are some of the better pics for anyone who might want to try their hand at reverse-engineering this design .
🙂
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Well those are cool. Thanks, I'd never seen them. A cardioid line array. And it asks for a stack of multicell horns. Wonder what that sounds like?
One of the best annunciator systems I've heard was a flown row of [4] 515s in parallel with [4] 311-90 on an angle iron rack at a Ga. Congress Center Trade Show. Incredible clarity.
GM
GM
Thanks for your voice of experience GM.
An open question to anyone; Would the 814a have better off-axis rejection compared to say a pair of stacked 816's ?
🙂
An open question to anyone; Would the 814a have better off-axis rejection compared to say a pair of stacked 816's ?
🙂
One would think so, but according to the polars 90 off isn't all that far down. Of course anything helps.
EDIT: I take that back, 90 off axis is about 10dB down. That's good.
FWIW, I did find that the 804 horns had much greater gain before feedback than the line arrays in the same hanging position. I suppose a more narrow pattern. It sure helps.
EDIT: I take that back, 90 off axis is about 10dB down. That's good.
FWIW, I did find that the 804 horns had much greater gain before feedback than the line arrays in the same hanging position. I suppose a more narrow pattern. It sure helps.
I like multicell horns a lot, but my listening room is not so large.
22'*15'.5'*9.5', with acoustic treatment to be defined.
I'm free to place the speakers and the couch wherever I want. Which horn would be fine for this kind of room ? Thanks!
22'*15'.5'*9.5', with acoustic treatment to be defined.
I'm free to place the speakers and the couch wherever I want. Which horn would be fine for this kind of room ? Thanks!
Your room is big enough for any of them, so choice comes down to desired performance, hence system design, though generally speaking, avoid the > 90 deg. horns unless sitting close and/or shoved hard into corners. That, or plan on some form of side wall treatments such as heavy insulated drapes.
Note that regardless of speaker type, it's normally best for both speaker system and listening position [Lp] be in a room's odd harmonic [peak].
GM
Note that regardless of speaker type, it's normally best for both speaker system and listening position [Lp] be in a room's odd harmonic [peak].
GM
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You're welcome!
25 Hz is in theory off a little, so assume your SoS is a bit different from my ~1130 ft/sec., but the odd harmonics are at roughly 1/5, 1/3, 2/5, etc., of 22 ft, and since you apparently can map it [not familiar with REW or any fancy computer test gear] you can 'hit the numbers' closer than I did with just a tape measure and using then young teen girl's keen hearings to get close enough.
GM
25 Hz is in theory off a little, so assume your SoS is a bit different from my ~1130 ft/sec., but the odd harmonics are at roughly 1/5, 1/3, 2/5, etc., of 22 ft, and since you apparently can map it [not familiar with REW or any fancy computer test gear] you can 'hit the numbers' closer than I did with just a tape measure and using then young teen girl's keen hearings to get close enough.
GM
